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The new All Purpose Lu Thread (MOD Warning in OP)

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Old
11-20-2012, 01:32 PM
  #576
The Saurus
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Well Mr.Bettman...forward me a copy of this new CBA you have signed will you?
Once again, measures by the league to protect it from itself without limiting the amount of dollars given out. No reason for the PA to contest such a measure.

It's as good as done.

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11-20-2012, 01:33 PM
  #577
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Dubinsky and Anisimov weren't cap dumps, but moving their combined cap hits allowed NYR to afford Nash's deal. If the Luongo trade is comprised of mainly futures, with little cap coming back, I could see Gillis agreeing to take on a 1 year dump, just not a multi-year dump.

I also think the biggest hindrance is the lack of a CBA, and nothing to do with potential cap dumps. At this point no one can predict if one will be included, because no one knows the future economic environment of each team and their salary structures.


I think the Saurus knows what's in the new CBA.


I cannot see Gillis taking on even a 1yr cap dump. Far more likely that he takes on a multi-year mid range contract than a cap dump that he is likely to waive. MacArthur, I think, represents the worst of what I think he might take on. Connolly and Lombardi make no sense in this regard.

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11-20-2012, 01:35 PM
  #578
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well, i can see this discussion's progressed

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11-20-2012, 01:36 PM
  #579
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I think that Gillis is under slightly more pressure to trade Lou then he or the team & fans will admit. This is for a few reasons number one, nobody wants to tie up a useable asset longer then they have to. Especially, reasonable cap hit or not is making almost 7mil per yr. Number two nobody wants anything out of their control to happen that decreases said assets value. Now this doesn't mean there is a gun to his head but this trade, no matter who it is to, has to happen as soon as possible when the new CBA is in place.

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11-20-2012, 01:44 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
Once again, measures by the league to protect it from itself without limiting the amount of dollars given out. No reason for the PA to contest such a measure.

It's as good as done.
Are you really unable to see how this clause limits the amount of dollars given out?

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11-20-2012, 01:46 PM
  #581
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I think that Gillis is under slightly more pressure to trade Lou then he or the team & fans will admit. This is for a few reasons number one, nobody wants to tie up a useable asset longer then they have to. Especially, reasonable cap hit or not is making almost 7mil per yr. Number two nobody wants anything out of their control to happen that decreases said assets value. Now this doesn't mean there is a gun to his head but this trade, no matter who it is to, has to happen as soon as possible when the new CBA is in place.
It's fair to say the team would probably be better with the assets Luongo returns and the potential cap space made available.
But the team is basically the same team from last season, so even if we keep both goaltenders, we should still succeed and be a playoff team. We have the cap space to run with both goalies, so everything in theory is feasible and will allow us to remain as a competitive team. Gillis should feel no rush to move Luongo.

And people saying "but Luongo will turn into a locker room cancer!" - that is just speculation. So far, he's said all the right things in interviews and handled the situation very well. And just to entertain the idea of the critics, even if he becomes fed up and angry at the team, what is really the worst that could happen? He sits on the bench until a deal is done. The situation is unique because he does not have to be an active player on the roster, although I think if we hold on to him, the games will be split 50/50 with Schneider and he will maintain his value until a deal is done with a team that desperately needs an upgrade in goal.

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11-20-2012, 01:47 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
Burke: "Hey Dale, what's up buddy?"
Tallon: "Oh, you know, not much..."
Burke: "Take Roberto's contract off my hands for a seventh rounder, will ya?"
Tallon: *hangs up*

Yeah, good luck getting another team to take that contract at a convenient price without throwing in another very attractive piece to offset that cap hit when Roberto is 40.
At 39 his cash comp is 3.38
At 40 his cash comp is 1.618
At 41 his cash comp is 1.0

So potentially he'd play out the 39 year season as it's still worth it to him....and at that point if he can still play, would a team like Phoenix want a 5.5 cap hit and only have to pay 3.38? If he last as long as Rolosen, Belfour, Thomas, Brodeur, CuJo etc. you only need to worry about the 38 and 39 year old contract years. That's where the risk is.

Right now there are a bunch of goalies much older than Lou playing at a high level: Nabokov (37), Kipper (36), Brodeur (40), Giguere (35), Biron (35), Theodore (36), Thomas (38), Vokoun (36), Hedberg (38)

Rolosen finally hit the wall last year and he's 43 now. On the flip side, Turco hit the wall at 35.

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11-20-2012, 01:49 PM
  #583
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
Once again, measures by the league to protect it from itself without limiting the amount of dollars given out. No reason for the PA to contest such a measure.

It's as good as done.
Your reasoning does not make sense. Theses type of rules leave cap hits in the system with no player earning the corresponding salary. In turn this lowers teams ability(rich team) to spend or need(poor team) reach cap floor. So for every year Luongo retires and cap hit is retained players lose 5.3million because this 5.3 will be included in the players share of HRR. Add in some more players like this and a couple year and it could end up costing players upward of 50 million on their share of HRR.

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Old
11-20-2012, 01:52 PM
  #584
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Your reasoning does not make sense. Theses type of rules leave cap hits in the system with no player earning the corresponding salary. In turn this lowers teams ability(rich team) to spend or need(poor team) reach cap floor. So for every year Luongo retires and cap hit is retained players lose 5.3million because this 5.3 will be included in the players share of HRR. Add in some more players like this and a couple year and it could end up costing players upward of 50 million on their share of HRR.
I can see why the NHL wants to do it, and maybe should do it. I cannot see why the PA agrees to that as a throw in. It's most definetely a negative for them.

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11-20-2012, 01:54 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
It's fair to say the team would probably be better with the assets Luongo returns and the potential cap space made available.
But the team is basically the same team from last season, so even if we keep both goaltenders, we should still succeed and be a playoff team. We have the cap space to run with both goalies, so everything in theory is feasible and will allow us to remain as a competitive team. Gillis should feel no rush to move Luongo.

And people saying "but Luongo will turn into a locker room cancer!" - that is just speculation. So far, he's said all the right things in interviews and handled the situation very well. And just to entertain the idea of the critics, even if he becomes fed up and angry at the team, what is really the worst that could happen? He sits on the bench until a deal is done. The situation is unique because he does not have to be an active player on the roster, although I think if we hold on to him, the games will be split 50/50 with Schneider and he will maintain his value until a deal is done with a team that desperately needs an upgrade in goal.
While the threat of "locker room cancer" is possible I guess, and I hate that people are referred to as that. Let's say distraction, though that is not what I was referring to. Personally I doubt he does, he has handled things as a pro so far. I was referring more to that either the team plays poorly, and puts pressure on Gillis to make trade from a reverse standpoint. Or, if Loungo gets hurt, now you have a 34 yr old goalie coming off and injury. Thirdly, what if he plays poorly as said rumors or not knowing where he is going reflects in his play? He wouldn't be the first guy this happened to. These are three things that could have a negative affect on Loungos value and are out of Gillis's control

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11-20-2012, 02:00 PM
  #586
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While the threat of "locker room cancer" is possible I guess, and I hate that people are referred to as that. Let's say distraction, though that is not what I was referring to. Personally I doubt he does, he has handled things as a pro so far. I was referring more to that either the team plays poorly, and puts pressure on Gillis to make trade from a reverse standpoint. Or, if Loungo gets hurt, now you have a 34 yr old goalie coming off and injury. Thirdly, what if he plays poorly as said rumors or not knowing where he is going reflects in his play? He wouldn't be the first guy this happened to. These are three things that could have a negative affect on Loungos value and are out of Gillis's control
At this point in time, there is no good reason why the team will play poorly. Back-to-back presidents trophies with very similar rosters make a playoff spot all but guaranteed.

That's a big "if" for Luongo getting injured, especially given the fact that if he remains a Canuck, his work load will be reduced due to Schneider taking on more games.

What if he plays poorly? Well I'm going to base my prediction on the large sample size of his entire career and say that is extremely unlikely, especially since October has already passed

All 3 of those points are a large stretch. Not impossible, but highly unlikely IMO.

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Old
11-20-2012, 02:02 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by doorman View Post
While the threat of "locker room cancer" is possible I guess, and I hate that people are referred to as that. Let's say distraction, though that is not what I was referring to. Personally I doubt he does, he has handled things as a pro so far. I was referring more to that either the team plays poorly, and puts pressure on Gillis to make trade from a reverse standpoint. Or, if Loungo gets hurt, now you have a 34 yr old goalie coming off and injury. Thirdly, what if he plays poorly as said rumors or not knowing where he is going reflects in his play? He wouldn't be the first guy this happened to. These are three things that could have a negative affect on Loungos value and are out of Gillis's control
Or if Schneider gets hurt, and we have already traded Luongo...The injury card works both ways.

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11-20-2012, 02:06 PM
  #588
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I actually think it went stagnant. For me, it wasn't the running around that drove me nuts, it was getting beat cleanly on the rush which lead to multiple chances. He will be better in Philly as they play better team defense.

You'll have to explain how a goalie makes a defenseman play worse. If the defense played better, it takes pressure off the goaltending...no?
All players are instructed to play within the parameters of their skill-set. For most defense-men this requires them to stay 'at home' in their own zone. They have an area of responsibility which they are instructed to stay inside, thus allowing them to 'box-out' and protect the higher risk areas. This concept allows shots from angles NHL goalies should not only stop, but should control the rebound. (This style of play is why a Scott Gomez is no longer an effective player. He can't, or is unwilling to, get into the area where the 'd' are boxing out - the higher risk areas.) The Leaf's goalies recently have been allowing goals (and rebounds) on shots from these (supposed to be safer) areas. Defense-men (Schenn and others from the Leafs) at times will leave their areas to attack players in these zones. Then all the players on 'd' begin to try and cover for one another, hence the term 'running'. Consequently, players like Schenn look to be out of position, or slow footed etc. Further, younger 'd' like Schenn begin to develop bad habits, and lose confidence. Goalies are very important to that structure. They must track pucks, stop pucks and control rebounds. These qualities are ones the current Leaf's goalies lack.

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11-20-2012, 02:34 PM
  #589
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I think he's going to Toronto. I hate Luongo, but he's a big big upgrade over James Reimer, and the monster five hole Gustavsson who is no longer there.

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11-20-2012, 02:46 PM
  #590
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Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
And people saying "but Luongo will turn into a locker room cancer!" - that is just speculation. So far, he's said all the right things in interviews and handled the situation very well. And just to entertain the idea of the critics, even if he becomes fed up and angry at the team, what is really the worst that could happen? He sits on the bench until a deal is done. The situation is unique because he does not have to be an active player on the roster, although I think if we hold on to him, the games will be split 50/50 with Schneider and he will maintain his value until a deal is done with a team that desperately needs an upgrade in goal.
Assuming Vancouver starts the season with both Luongo and Schneider wouldn't it make more sense to play Luongo a lot more? This way if he gets on a long winning streak maybe other teams are willing to pay more for him. Although then it might become a Goalie controversy because when will Schneider play and maybe he will be the one that asks for a trade.

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11-20-2012, 02:54 PM
  #591
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
Assuming Vancouver starts the season with both Luongo and Schneider wouldn't it make more sense to play Luongo a lot more? This way if he gets on a long winning streak maybe other teams are willing to pay more for him. Although then it might become a Goalie controversy because when will Schneider play and maybe he will be the one that asks for a trade.
I'm sure Schneider isn't that idiotic to know that Luongo will be shown off & that he is the goalie Vancouver plans to go forward with....


Maybe Luongo will turn into King Kong, go to the HHOF steal the Stanley Cup & climb the CN Tower


Last edited by Scottrockztheworld*: 11-20-2012 at 03:00 PM.
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11-20-2012, 02:55 PM
  #592
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
Assuming Vancouver starts the season with both Luongo and Schneider wouldn't it make more sense to play Luongo a lot more? This way if he gets on a long winning streak maybe other teams are willing to pay more for him. Although then it might become a Goalie controversy because when will Schneider play and maybe he will be the one that asks for a trade.
Thank you for the propaganda. The fact is Schneider signed a 3 year contract knowing Luongo is still here. Maybe Reimer will get concussion and Scrivens will get hurt and then Leafs have no goalies! Lol what a joke to speculate like this, lets get a season first, please and thank you.

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11-20-2012, 03:07 PM
  #593
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Originally Posted by doorman View Post
I think that Gillis is under slightly more pressure to trade Lou then he or the team & fans will admit. This is for a few reasons number one, nobody wants to tie up a useable asset longer then they have to. Especially, reasonable cap hit or not is making almost 7mil per yr. Number two nobody wants anything out of their control to happen that decreases said assets value. Now this doesn't mean there is a gun to his head but this trade, no matter who it is to, has to happen as soon as possible when the new CBA is in place.


Disagree on all fronts. The main pressure on Gillis to trade Lu is Lu. That's it. External pressures don't matter. Internal salary/cap pressures have been mitigated by signing both to contracts that fit within the current cap.

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11-20-2012, 03:21 PM
  #594
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Disagree on all fronts. The main pressure on Gillis to trade Lu is Lu. That's it. External pressures don't matter. Internal salary/cap pressures have been mitigated by signing both to contracts that fit within the current cap.
None of these are external pressures, but nevermind

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11-20-2012, 03:43 PM
  #595
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None of these are external pressures, but nevermind

I know they aren't, I said as much. I also said external pressures are irrelevant.

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11-20-2012, 03:44 PM
  #596
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I think people talking about Lui's contract as a neg, or pos need to remember it is most likely not just this CBA away, but another one as well. So really who knows what a CBA may look like then. You can't worry that much about what happens that far down the road.

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11-20-2012, 03:50 PM
  #597
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I think people talking about Lui's contract as a neg, or pos need to remember it is most likely not just this CBA away, but another one as well. So really who knows what a CBA may look like then. You can't worry that much about what happens that far down the road.
I think most people think Lu will decline at some point before another CBA agreement. Even then, couldn't a new CBA be a 10 year contract? 15?

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11-20-2012, 05:24 PM
  #598
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I think when people say "Lu will be a distraction" you have to keep in mid these guys are all his best friends in the locker room.

Hes been with these guys for years, hes not likely to be a distraction to his friends/long time teammates.

The Jeff Carter situation I could see as being a distraction.
- Guy goes to a team, didnt want to go to that team, requests a trade and gives all the guys a bad impression from day 1.

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11-20-2012, 07:17 PM
  #599
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I think most people think Lu will decline at some point before another CBA agreement. Even then, couldn't a new CBA be a 10 year contract? 15?
I'm not 100% positive on this, but I remember reading the proposal of a new CBA is 10 years.
Considering the NHL and NHLPA have been running off 1 year deals for the past 3? I believe. You'd think. Long term CBA is the ideal for both parties. Which is a big reason why nothing has been signed. Each party is looking down the line and saying to each other this is a 10 year commitment. We can't just give everything up.

The PA won't just bend over to the NHL because they hold as many cards as the owners. Don't wanna play games? Ok the players will play elsewhere and make money. The owners make nothing.

Also the whole idea of the PA allowing that clause on the new CBA without some type roll back or way to get these rich teams, and pretty much the whole Top 10 in revenue are going to be over any cap ceiling at 60 million. So Saurus please show us the make whole provision and maybe we won't see you as less than Marty here who had actually tried to back his statements up. Now he might not be completely right, but has at least shown the ability to be mature and not just say its a done deal that he's right.

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11-20-2012, 07:42 PM
  #600
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I think most people think Lu will decline at some point before another CBA agreement. Even then, couldn't a new CBA be a 10 year contract? 15?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstad101 View Post
I'm not 100% positive on this, but I remember reading the proposal of a new CBA is 10 years.
Considering the NHL and NHLPA have been running off 1 year deals for the past 3? I believe. You'd think. Long term CBA is the ideal for both parties. Which is a big reason why nothing has been signed. Each party is looking down the line and saying to each other this is a 10 year commitment. We can't just give everything up.

The PA won't just bend over to the NHL because they hold as many cards as the owners. Don't wanna play games? Ok the players will play elsewhere and make money. The owners make nothing.

Also the whole idea of the PA allowing that clause on the new CBA without some type roll back or way to get these rich teams, and pretty much the whole Top 10 in revenue are going to be over any cap ceiling at 60 million. So Saurus please show us the make whole provision and maybe we won't see you as less than Marty here who had actually tried to back his statements up. Now he might not be completely right, but has at least shown the ability to be mature and not just say its a done deal that he's right.
Last I heard the NHLPA was making three year deals, to tie to the new TV deal in Canada, and the owners longest was 7 yrs. So at this point I would say the probably would be another CBA before then. But who knows.

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