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Old
11-18-2012, 09:14 PM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Stop asking for the moon when it comes to a goalie who almost has negative value.
That's ridiculous. Luongo has a lot of value to Vancouver.

It's much more Burke trying to acquire Luongo and less Gillis trying to offload him.

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11-18-2012, 09:15 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
Actually a Nucks fan brought him up and I agreed. But it looks like only two or three of you were into it and the others are back after assets we really should not part with, our first rounder, Kuleman and our top center prospect. I think its pretty obvious people just like throwing names around no matter how many times it's pointed out they are assets we cannot realisticly part with. Grabovski we could do, it would hurt, but we could do it. Trading our first at this stage is stupid because Luo would improve us but he is not the final piece, there would still be much building to do.
I believe after listing a number of assets, you said Grabovski for Luongo straight. There'd have to be a little added, you offered a third, but that's still lowish. Better then I've seen for the most part, but....eh I'm not sold.

But your point cuts both ways. There are plenty of Toronto fans offering marginal, or non-existent upgrades, to plug holes in our roster that we don't want or need. Every proposal seems to include Lombardi or Connolly, and they do us no favours. Prospects like Percy or Kadri are probably in need of a change of scenery, but we don't value them highly, and they won't help us this year. Protecting the first does nothing for us either, because it demonstrates that Leafs fans think Luongo will have 0 impact on their roster, even without giving up significant assets.

This is why we break down into bickering. Everyone on the Leafs is either untouchable or unwanted to Vancouver, so we don't want to trade him for something we don't value.

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11-18-2012, 09:16 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
I think 90% of Nucks fans would do Grabovski + 3rd for Luongo.

Obviously some fans would rather have Gardiner/Rielly/1st/Kulemin packages but that's not feasible for TO.
And you think Grabovski is???

Personally... i'd like to see fans of other teams chime in with what they'd be prepared to offer for Luongo. After all, a player's trade value is driven by what the team who offers up the 2nd best package is prepared to offer. If Florida offers X, Toronto only needs to offer X+1 to get him.

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11-18-2012, 09:17 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Stop asking for the moon when it comes to a goalie who almost has negative value.
That shows how little respect you have for Canucks posters. Don't call us, we won't call you either.

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11-18-2012, 09:17 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
And you think Grabovski is???
- Grabovski + Luongo > Grabovski + Reimer/Scivens

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11-18-2012, 09:18 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Lupul literally seems like the last guy Gillis would target on the Leafs. Defensively weak and issues about work ethic. Probably way overvalued by Burke as well.
Our problem is scoring goals, not allowing them. Put him on a line with Kesler and I think we would have a far improved 2nd line.


Quote:
2nd overall who has never scored more than 40 points.

A solid project but less of a legit top 6er than Mason Raymond.
Yes, there's also another former 2nd overall that never scored more than forty points in his first three years. Hint: He has a twin.

Obviously there's risk involved, but so is taking on a goalie who has never been a proven starter.


Quote:
If we wanted a 1st we could flip our own and trade Luongo in the off season. If all we wanted was some prospects we could trade him in the off season. If it doesn't improve our team there's no point to trading either goalie.
I think subtracting Schneider and adding JVR + possible help from the 1st round pick or simply using it to draft a player like Pulock would make us a better team. I'm sorry if you disagree.

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11-18-2012, 09:19 PM
  #182
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Leafs fans think Reimer had an incredible run and almost brought them to the playoffs.

Reimer during his "incredible run" - 2.60 GAA and .921

Luongo's career average (700+ games) - 2.52 GAA .919

So yeah...acquiring Luongo will do a hell of a lot for your team.

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11-18-2012, 09:20 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Prospects like Percy or Kadri are probably in need of a change of scenery, but we don't value them highly, and they won't help us this year.
I can see why you mentioned Kadri in that example based on what has happened with him and the Toronto media. However I'm wondering why you think Percy would need a change of scenery? There hasn't been any problems with him and etc.

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11-18-2012, 09:21 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I think subtracting Schneider and adding JVR + possible help from the 1st round pick or simply using it to draft a player like Pulock would make us a better team. I'm sorry if you disagree.
I agree with this, but it would have to be more then JVR to keep my interest. If we got JVR+1st for Schneider...hell yes. That's not being offered though, is it? Or did I miss something?

(Not sarcasm, an actual set of questions)

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11-18-2012, 09:23 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Our problem is scoring goals, not allowing them. Put him on a line with Kesler and I think we would have a far improved 2nd line.
Our strength lies in having 2 goalies and in a shortened season it'll be even more important. If all we need is a 40 point winger we can pick one up at the TDL.

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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Yes, there's also another former 2nd overall that never scored more than forty points in his first three years. Hint: He has a twin.
No one in their right mind is going to compare JVR and Sedin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I think subtracting Schneider and adding JVR + possible help from the 1st round pick or simply using it to draft a player like Pulock would make us a better team. I'm sorry if you disagree.
Yeah a rookie we haven't even drafted is going to improve our team...

It's too bad we can't keep Luongo for the upcoming season and deal him next off season.

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11-18-2012, 09:23 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
That's ridiculous. Luongo has a lot of value to Vancouver.

It's much more Burke trying to acquire Luongo and less Gillis trying to offload him.
He lost me at "almost negative value". Why on earth is this kind of demand for "almost negative value".

I agree absolutely with the second statement, but not exclusively Burke by all accounts. We have a goalie available, we aren't trying to move either for what ever we can get.

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11-18-2012, 09:25 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
That shows how little respect you have for Canucks posters. Don't call us, we won't call you either.
I'm not making that comment about all Canuck posters... You can figure out the rest.

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11-18-2012, 09:27 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
I can see why you mentioned Kadri in that example based on what has happened with him and the Toronto media. However I'm wondering why you think Percy would need a change of scenery? There hasn't been any problems with him and etc.
This is no-excuse ignorance on my part: I see him being posted in every other proposal, and I have to assume he's unwanted in Toronto. I have no complaints about his scouting reports, but he just doesn't hold value to me the same way that a roster player with a similar write up would.

Also, that was more targeted at Kadri, but yeah...adding Raymond, Malhotra and Ballard to every proposal around here has kind of dropped their value on these boards, the same as Halak, whoever it was, and a second.

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Old
11-18-2012, 09:29 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
I agree with this, but it would have to be more then JVR to keep my interest. If we got JVR+1st for Schneider...hell yes. That's not being offered though, is it? Or did I miss something?

(Not sarcasm, an actual set of questions)
JVR + 1st for Schneider + Raymond. Which I would be willing to do.

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11-18-2012, 09:30 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
- Grabovski + Luongo > Grabovski + Reimer/Scivens
Yeah, if we were a completely shortsighted team with no long term outlook.

Vancouver fans need to realize that Toronto isn't going to pay the premium valuation that Vancouver fans would for immidiate results. The focus has to be long term.

If they want a team that's going to focus on the immidiate results, they'd be best off looking towards a better team that is just a goaltender away from being a great team.... maybe a team like Tampa Bay... oh wait, they decided they want no part of his deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Leafs fans think Reimer had an incredible run and almost brought them to the playoffs.

Reimer during his "incredible run" - 2.60 GAA and .921

Luongo's career average (700+ games) - 2.52 GAA .919

So yeah...acquiring Luongo will do a hell of a lot for your team.
Yet you're valuing Schneider more than Luongo.

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Old
11-18-2012, 09:33 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
If they want a team that's going to focus on the immidiate results, they'd be best off looking towards a better team that is just a goaltender away from being a great team.... maybe a team like Tampa Bay... oh wait, they decided they want no part of his deal.
To be fair Tampa doesn't have the same financial capability as other teams, especially with Lecavalier's contract already on the books.

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11-18-2012, 09:35 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Yeah, if we were a completely shortsighted team with no long term outlook.
Having an elite goalie locked up long term is pretty future orientated.

Grabovski's a #2C locked up for 5 more years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Yet you're valuing Schneider more than Luongo.
I see something very very special in Schneider.

If Luongo is a Vezina nominee calibre goalie then Schneider in my eyes is a future winner.

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11-18-2012, 09:37 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
To be fair Tampa doesn't have the same financial capability as other teams, especially with Lecavalier's contract already on the books.
Yeah... which should trigger something to realize that there just aren't (m)any teams who have the need for a goaltender, have a large quantity of money to spend, and prepared to make a now move at the cost of the future.

Maybe you're best off keeping your goaltending controversy and letting at least one of the goaltender's value drop in perpetuity.

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11-18-2012, 09:38 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
This is no-excuse ignorance on my part: I see him being posted in every other proposal, and I have to assume he's unwanted in Toronto. I have no complaints about his scouting reports, but he just doesn't hold value to me the same way that a roster player with a similar write up would.

Also, that was more targeted at Kadri, but yeah...adding Raymond, Malhotra and Ballard to every proposal around here has kind of dropped their value on these boards, the same as Halak, whoever it was, and a second.
I can't speak for other Leafs fans but I'm not sure why they are so quick to offer Percy in any of their trade proposals. I want to see what he has to offer and he's not even in the AHL, he's still in the OHL.

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11-18-2012, 09:39 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Maybe you're best off keeping your goaltending controversy and letting at least one of the goaltender's value drop in perpetuity.
That sounds like Toronto's G situation.

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11-18-2012, 09:39 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Having an elite goalie locked up long term is pretty future orientated.

Grabovski's a #2C locked up for 5 more years?


I see something very very special in Schneider.

If Luongo is a Vezina nominee calibre goalie then Schneider in my eyes is a future winner.
Not when that goalie is 33 years old. This isn't Jonathan Quick we're talking about.

Yeah, and we see something very very special in Reimer. The hard numbers suggest they have between 68 and 71 games of evidence in the NHL.

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11-18-2012, 09:41 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
That sounds like Toronto's G situation.
No controversy in Toronto. It's Reimer's job to lose, and there isn't a shortage of games. His value will go up or down based on how he plays.

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11-18-2012, 09:41 PM
  #198
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That's ridiculous. Luongo has a lot of value to Vancouver.

It's much more Burke trying to acquire Luongo and less Gillis trying to offload him.
I'm sure any offers for Luongo from the Panters and Dale Tallon was just as low with the types of players as Burke has offered. I agree to the Canucks Luongo has value, however for other teams taking on his contract they don't see it and why they won't give Gillis an A+ package for him.

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11-18-2012, 09:42 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Yeah... which should trigger something to realize that there just aren't (m)any teams who have the need for a goaltender, have a large quantity of money to spend, and prepared to make a now move at the cost of the future.

Maybe you're best off keeping your goaltending controversy and letting at least one of the goaltender's value drop in perpetuity.
That's the nice thing about real life as opposed to weirdo fantasy land. At some point the GM of the Canucks will make a real trade with another GM and we can see what the market really was. Until then Leaf fans can continue to crap themselves over the potential for Burke to have to either pay up big or come out with blustering support for his goalie of the future while *****ing about what another GM paid for a canuck goalie.

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11-18-2012, 09:45 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
JVR + 1st for Schneider + Raymond. Which I would be willing to do.
You know what...yeah, I'd be in for that. I still want a defenseman or third line center, but my taste for those are much easier to fulfill then a top six powerforward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Yeah, if we were a completely shortsighted team with no long term outlook.

Vancouver fans need to realize that Toronto isn't going to pay the premium valuation that Vancouver fans would for immidiate results. The focus has to be long term.

If they want a team that's going to focus on the immidiate results, they'd be best off looking towards a better team that is just a goaltender away from being a great team.... maybe a team like Tampa Bay... oh wait, they decided they want no part of his deal.
The idea of acquiring Luongo is as shortsighted as any other acquisitions. Toronto isn't the free agent Mecca that other high income teams, say New York, Detroit...even Vancouver (hey we're top 10). Not to fault goaltending, but this has been an evident hole since well before Burke, and not being addressed...well there are several UFA players that could fly the coop.

Yes, the same can be said of filling a top line centre role, but there aren't many of those being shopped at the moment.

We're not asking for a premium, merely what we see as market value for a star player. You can't use Phaneuf's trade to evaluate how Luongo will be traded for: Sutter was fired shortly after, and we are in no hurry to move Luongo.

There seems to be a common thought among Leafs fans that we Canucks fans get around, in a group, and think up ways to attempt to rip off Toronto in this thread. We don't, we just don't want to give a certified star player up for scraps.

Sarcasm gets you no where in this thread, but Chicago, potentially Edmonton and Columbus, teams like San Jose, Philadelphia or Washington (with bad news out of Europe about their starters staying there), and yes, even Tampa (in the event of Lindback/Gerber not being good enough), are all other destinations we're happy with. I should note that it is a "cost of Luongo" thread, not a "cost of Luongo to the Leafs thread", and yet I don't see posters from the other teams fan bases in here as often as Leafs fans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Yet you're valuing Schneider more than Luongo.
And it cuts both ways. You can hype up Reimer over his short term stats, we do it with Schneider and it's really inflating his value or play. You've also said that Toronto shouldn't be looking exclusively short term: Schneider hits that nail on the head.

Luongo has, according to one of your peers, "almost negative value", based, I can only assume, on his contract. Schneider has the highest save percentage of any goalie after as many games, and has 0 of the contract problems. Consensus is he has more value around these boards, even if it lines up with that "potential over proven" philosophy I hate.

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