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ST.JOHNS verses ROCHESTER - GDT - WED FEB 9th

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Old
02-10-2005, 12:33 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
Well I'm still not completely sold on Williams being a 2nd liner. He could be, but he still has a ways to go.

But I completely agree about putting Stajan and Williams together. I've been thinking that as well.

I like Shedden but a major fault of his is that he hasn't found a second scoring line. It's a real problem. He needs to put a line together that he thinks might work and keep them together for a few games. I say maybe Stajan, Williams and Wilm or something like that.

He's got to stop switching up the lines every other shift. He'll never find a scoring line by doing that.

You would get no arguments from me if Williams and Stajan found good Chemistry and played together regularly ..

but I am sure you heard the intermission interview with Williams the other day between periods .. He has played this year the most with Wilm as his centre and he actually likes that and Benny Ondrus his former Swift Current team-mate on the other side .. So sometimes as Fans we want one thing when the player himself may want another ..

I will have a hard time winning any bets with Frankie if he plays there but for his long-term development learning the 2-way game ..playing with Wilm better serves that cause than with Stajan .. IMO ..

Shedden does need to find a consistent second line for scoring .. I always believed that Ling and Welly may need to be on separate lines .. to balance scoring out ..As I believe that Welly can continue to produce with or without Ling ..

I personally would rotate Wilm and Perrott as my 2 Healthy vets and keep Leeb and Druken in the line-up against top teams anyways ..

Then you could have ..

Druken .. Welly ... Leeb
Ling .....Stajan.....Williams
Barrett ....Wilm....Ondrus

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02-10-2005, 01:24 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
You would get no arguments from me if Williams and Stajan found good Chemistry and played together regularly ..

but I am sure you heard the intermission interview with Williams the other day between periods .. He has played this year the most with Wilm as his centre and he actually likes that and Benny Ondrus his former Swift Current team-mate on the other side .. So sometimes as Fans we want one thing when the player himself may want another ..

I will have a hard time winning any bets with Frankie if he plays there but for his long-term development learning the 2-way game ..playing with Wilm better serves that cause than with Stajan .. IMO ..

Shedden does need to find a consistent second line for scoring .. I always believed that Ling and Welly may need to be on separate lines .. to balance scoring out ..As I believe that Welly can continue to produce with or without Ling ..

I personally would rotate Wilm and Perrott as my 2 Healthy vets and keep Leeb and Druken in the line-up against top teams anyways ..

Then you could have ..

Druken .. Welly ... Leeb
Ling .....Stajan.....Williams
Barrett ....Wilm....Ondrus
Those would be mighty fine. I wonder though, do the leafs have anyone under contract that could come aboard late in the year as their seasons end? Steen, Shinkar, etc?

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02-10-2005, 01:33 PM
  #28
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You could get some offense out of those two lines but Druken-Welly-Leeb would not be much of a line defensively. But i agree they need to find some secondary scoring to be one of the elite teams.

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02-10-2005, 01:43 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
I am not changing anything .. Just pointing out that Williams contribution in the win column for St. Johns goes beyond the goals he has .. and with a shooter like Williams you never know he can score at any time ..

In the long run what is better ?? I may lose the bet , but win the war if a 7th round draft pick goes on to NHL success ..
you got that right you're not changing anything. he either gets 20 goals or he doesn't. no ifs, ands, or buts.

what does the winner of the bet get? just bragging rights?

i agree that he's developing pretty good. i always say its better for a prospect to be on a good team. better to get 15 goals in a reduced role and be on a good team that is going to the playoffs and might do something in the playoffs rather then be on a garbage team and get 20 meaningless goals.

jeremy isn't 2nd line material yet though. other then on the pp, he is still mostly invisible out there.

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02-10-2005, 01:45 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falon
Those would be mighty fine. I wonder though, do the leafs have anyone under contract that could come aboard late in the year as their seasons end? Steen, Shinkar, etc?
if any junior or euro players come at the end of the season, they will not get any regular playing time.

they will only play in a meaningless regular season game or be spotted on the 4th line. but probably they would just be observers.

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02-10-2005, 01:57 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
if any junior or euro players come at the end of the season, they will not get any regular playing time.

they will only play in a meaningless regular season game or be spotted on the 4th line. but probably they would just be observers.
Maybe, but depth in the playoffs is never a bad thing IMO. Also, you never can tell if someone is going to take to the AHL like a fish to water. It couldn't hurt if there are.

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02-10-2005, 02:02 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
you got that right you're not changing anything. he either gets 20 goals or he doesn't. no ifs, ands, or buts.

what does the winner of the bet get? just bragging rights?

i agree that he's developing pretty good. i always say its better for a prospect to be on a good team. better to get 15 goals in a reduced role and be on a good team that is going to the playoffs and might do something in the playoffs rather then be on a garbage team and get 20 meaningless goals.

jeremy isn't 2nd line material yet though. other then on the pp, he is still mostly invisible out there.
This is the perfect year for everyone in St. Johns .. Team is winning so you are happy as well as the rest of us .. Team is full of prospects that contribute to that win each night ..Welly, Stajan, Williams, Bell, Carlo, White, Telly etc .. So regarless if they make it or not at least it gives hope for the future .. and the winning and team chemistry is also good for development .. This year when a Leeb or Druken scores it for a greater cause all around then just a local fan reward IMO ..

and like you say 15 meaningful beats 20 useless ones .. but sometimes beggers can't be chosy, but in this case it works out just fine ..

Williams is showing way more promise then someone like Barrett who should be a force this season but likely is done based on his lack of stats at this point as a 3rd year player .. IMO ..

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02-10-2005, 02:13 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
This is the perfect year for everyone in St. Johns .. Team is winning so you are happy as well as the rest of us .. Team is full of prospects that contribute to that win each night ..Welly, Stajan, Williams, Bell, Carlo, White, Telly etc .. So regarless if they make it or not at least it gives hope for the future .. and the winning and team chemistry is also good for development .. This year when a Leeb or Druken scores it for a greater cause all around then just a local fan reward IMO ..

and like you say 15 meaningful beats 20 useless ones .. but sometimes beggers can't be chosy, but in this case it works out just fine ..

Williams is showing way more promise then someone like Barrett who should be a force this season but likely is done based on his lack of stats at this point as a 3rd year player .. IMO ..
yes, it is working exactly like i've always said it should. imagine that.

i just hope that some fans are seeing that this ficticious development OR winning nonsense is only in their heads and not what actually goes on within the team. everyone is putting the team first and that is why there is such success this year - in both winning and development.

barrett is done. he's useless because he just doesn't care. hockey is not a priority with him.

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02-10-2005, 02:36 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
yes, it is working exactly like i've always said it should. imagine that.

i just hope that some fans are seeing that this ficticious development OR winning nonsense is only in their heads and not what actually goes on within the team. everyone is putting the team first and that is why there is such success this year - in both winning and development.

barrett is done. he's useless because he just doesn't care. hockey is not a priority with him.
Well I wouldn't exactly stretch it that far ..

The unexpected success of Welly last year and While and Williams this year is setting the stage for this .. If Kelly got top ice and White and Bell alternated as scratches the system IMO would not be working properly by itself, or Palahnuk always took Williams spot in the lineup despite the Zero points just for St. Johns wins, but Leafs draft picks are making Shedden job easy because Toronto is happy that its future is a part of the present in St. Johns .. You can't hardly find a goal that does not have some sort of prospect influence in the result .. a pinch by Bell or a great Highlight reel play by Welly or Williams letting go his rocket, that is banged in the crease ..

We will both admit, and you much easier them me that the on ice success is a bit of a surprise all things considered .. The team is getting contributions for everyone at timely moments and because the team is winning the Leebs and Drukens are not disruptive influences when they are forced to sit out as vets on their turn in the rotation ..

and as much as my boy Williams has yet to make he true mark on the AHL .. and is getting bounced around , I will be the first to admit that Shedden is handling him just fine .. Williams in his interview sure was not complaining the other day and Shedden is sure getting his money's worth even as a roll player in the Shootout where goals do not count for bets .. but Williams I am sure is thrilled to have popped a few that won games for St. Johns .. So if everyone is happy .. there is no problem that I can see ..

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02-10-2005, 02:39 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
if any junior or euro players come at the end of the season, they will not get any regular playing time.

they will only play in a meaningless regular season game or be spotted on the 4th line. but probably they would just be observers.
If Steen is added today to this St. John's team, he's easily a top 9 forward.

Can play LW or C, would likely take Druken, Barrett, or Wilm's spot in the lineup.

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02-10-2005, 02:58 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Carl O'Steen
If Steen is added today to this St. John's team, he's easily a top 9 forward.

Can play LW or C, would likely take Druken, Barrett, or Wilm's spot in the lineup.
well i don't know if he's easily a top 9 players seeing as he can't even do anything in the swedish league.

he ain't taking clarke wilm out fo the lineup. druken neither. i wouldn't mind seeing barrett go away though.

poitn being, someone who has been with the team all year isn't getting bumped.

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02-10-2005, 03:03 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Frankie
well i don't know if he's easily a top 9 players seeing as he can't even do anything in the swedish league.
He's playing behind 5 NHL'ers... that's why.

Quote:
he ain't taking clarke wilm out fo the lineup. druken neither. i wouldn't mind seeing barrett go away though.

poitn being, someone who has been with the team all year isn't getting bumped.
Clarke bumped down to the 4th line if Steen sticks at C, if not, he's easily better than a -15 Harold Druken.

I know Harold's from St. John's and you love him, but there's no chance this guy sticks when he's been a scratch due to the veteran rule on many many nights.

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02-10-2005, 04:13 PM
  #38
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Steen is top nine on his team and has spent some time on the top line to say he wouldn't be top 9 for certain is kind of rediculous unless you think the baby leafs area better team than Modo which features the Sedins, Naslund, Aucoin, Forsberg(injured) etc. He certainly wouldn't be a garauntee to be immediately in the top 9 though as im sure it would still be a transition for him in the AHL.

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02-10-2005, 04:36 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by vanwychen27
Steen is top nine on his team and has spent some time on the top line to say he wouldn't be top 9 for certain is kind of rediculous unless you think the baby leafs area better team than Modo which features the Sedins, Naslund, Aucoin, Forsberg(injured) etc. He certainly wouldn't be a garauntee to be immediately in the top 9 though as im sure it would still be a transition for him in the AHL.
Transmition shmansmition... the AHL would fit his style a lot more than the Swedish league has, atleast this season. If you've seen any of the SEL on TV this season, it's very "blah"... very little room for creative players to dangle (even Forsberg has struggled from the games I've seen)... a lot of trap hockey, and the fact that these NHL'ers are pushing the younger players back is a factor.

Steen's transition time to the AHL would be minimal. He plays the brand of hockey that would instantly help him succeed in North America. Travel may be a problem, but that's probably it.

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02-10-2005, 05:55 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl O'Steen
He's playing behind 5 NHL'ers... that's why.
here come the excuses again.

Quote:
Clarke bumped down to the 4th line if Steen sticks at C, if not, he's easily better than a -15 Harold Druken.

I know Harold's from St. John's and you love him, but there's no chance this guy sticks when he's been a scratch due to the veteran rule on many many nights.
you don't know anything.

steen playing ahead of wilm? :lol not going to happen. not this year.

i don't care where druken is from and i don't like him at all. he's lazy and his defense is disgusting. but he'll be on a top two line in the playoffs, no doubt about it.

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02-10-2005, 05:57 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl O'Steen
Transmition shmansmition... the AHL would fit his style a lot more than the Swedish league has, atleast this season. If you've seen any of the SEL on TV this season, it's very "blah"... very little room for creative players to dangle (even Forsberg has struggled from the games I've seen)... a lot of trap hockey, and the fact that these NHL'ers are pushing the younger players back is a factor.

Steen's transition time to the AHL would be minimal. He plays the brand of hockey that would instantly help him succeed in North America. Travel may be a problem, but that's probably it.
you have no idea how his transition would go. absolutely none. some guys adapt right away, others never do. if you can predict it based on some stuff you've read on the internet and seeing parts of games on tv, you're the best hockey scout who's ever lived.

the sel is a horrible league.

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02-10-2005, 06:00 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
well i don't know if he's easily a top 9 players seeing as he can't even do anything in the swedish league.

he ain't taking clarke wilm out fo the lineup. druken neither. i wouldn't mind seeing barrett go away though.

poitn being, someone who has been with the team all year isn't getting bumped.
Interesting how your opinions change over time. Before the season the Baby Leafs were too small, slow and soft to do anything good and now they are too deep for Steen to make the team.

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02-10-2005, 06:03 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Interesting how your opinions change over time. Before the season the Baby Leafs were too small, slow and soft to do anything good and now they are too deep for Steen to make the team.
yup, they've surprised me. gotten great goaltending.

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02-10-2005, 06:06 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Frankie
you don't know anything.

steen playing ahead of wilm? :lol not going to happen. not this year.
Clarke Wilm: -14

There's no reason to think Steen won't take his spot and more. Alexander Steen's contribution to the St. John's team could possibly be more than Matthew Stajan's, and Stajan's a top forward on this squad.

You can't negate everything I say with "stop making excuses".

And is there a reason Druken is a top liner in the playoffs? The guy's -15, horrible defensively, lazy, and has been scratched more than a few times this season as a vet. David Ling is a top liner, Kyle Wellwood and Matthew Stajan are top line players on the team... Harold Druken is not.

You can't stick in a player because he is who he is. They've got to prove it, not do what Druken's done this season with St. John's.

Alexander Steen would be a top talent on this squad, he's playing a role (3rd liner) in a league that's much tougher this season to crack than the AHL. He's played in every possible game for his team, a team that has been stacked with 3 solid NHL'ers at any given time (Forsberg, Sedin, Sedin, Naslund) and two solid SEL veterans (Svartvadet, who's the captain... and Salomonsson). He's played in every game... yet, Harold Druken can't stay in the lineup in the AHL.

Forsberg - Peter was injured a couple games into Naslund's arrival, he's out for the season. Which, unfortunately for Steen means Naslund replaces Forsberg on the top unit as they're both LW's. Had Forsberg not been injured, Steen may have played with Naslund the rest of the season.

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02-10-2005, 06:18 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
the sel is a horrible league.
As for this comment, I can't say I agree. Especially not this season. Yes, as a fan of the NHL it's really tough to watch the style of hockey they play, but the competition and talent level in the SEL blows the AHL away.

Especially on a team like Modo, which is up there with AK Bars Kazan in spending on NHL stars. Though, I think more than a couple of these Swedish returnees are playing for free.

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02-10-2005, 06:32 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Carl O'Steen
Clarke Wilm: -14

There's no reason to think Steen won't take his spot and more. Alexander Steen's contribution to the St. John's team could possibly be more than Matthew Stajan's, and Stajan's a top forward on this squad.

You can't negate everything I say with "stop making excuses".

And is there a reason Druken is a top liner in the playoffs? The guy's -15, horrible defensively, lazy, and has been scratched more than a few times this season as a vet. David Ling is a top liner, Kyle Wellwood and Matthew Stajan are top line players on the team... Harold Druken is not.

You can't stick in a player because he is who he is. They've got to prove it, not do what Druken's done this season with St. John's.

Alexander Steen would be a top talent on this squad, he's playing a role (3rd liner) in a league that's much tougher this season to crack than the AHL. He's played in every possible game for his team, a team that has been stacked with 3 solid NHL'ers at any given time (Forsberg, Sedin, Sedin, Naslund) and two solid SEL veterans (Svartvadet, who's the captain... and Salomonsson). He's played in every game... yet, Harold Druken can't stay in the lineup in the AHL.

Forsberg - Peter was injured a couple games into Naslund's arrival, he's out for the season. Which, unfortunately for Steen means Naslund replaces Forsberg on the top unit as they're both LW's. Had Forsberg not been injured, Steen may have played with Naslund the rest of the season.
when you keep making excuses, then yes, i can negate everything you say by telling you that you're making excuses.

show us wilm's plus/minus all you want, he's the best defensive forward on the team. that's what shedden will tell you. wilm is the number one penalty killer and face off man that shedden depends on. he's not going anywhere for alex steen.

you can't stick in a player just because of who he is? that's exactly what you want to do with steen. he has proven nothing in any league.

druken has proven he can score quite a bit in the ahl. when he wants to be, he's one of the most dangerous players in the league. shedden will have him in there in the playoffs.

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02-10-2005, 06:34 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl O'Steen
As for this comment, I can't say I agree. Especially not this season. Yes, as a fan of the NHL it's really tough to watch the style of hockey they play, but the competition and talent level in the SEL blows the AHL away.
the ahl is way better then the sel. its not even close. they play the worst hockey in the world over there.

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02-10-2005, 07:19 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Frankie
when you keep making excuses, then yes, i can negate everything you say by telling you that you're making excuses.

show us wilm's plus/minus all you want, he's the best defensive forward on the team. that's what shedden will tell you. wilm is the number one penalty killer and face off man that shedden depends on. he's not going anywhere for alex steen.

you can't stick in a player just because of who he is? that's exactly what you want to do with steen. he has proven nothing in any league.
Steen's doing more in the SEL at age 21 than Druken is in the AHL at age 26... or even Wilm at age 28. I don't care if he's a tremendous faceoff man or penalty killer, they're still a -14 and -15 respectively. Meaning, the opposing team has scored 14/15 more goals while on the ice than his line/unit has scored even strength.

I think I've proven that I know more than you. You throw around insults to discredit others POV's and strengthen yours without valid facts.

Quote:
druken has proven he can score quite a bit in the ahl. when he wants to be, he's one of the most dangerous players in the league. shedden will have him in there in the playoffs.
He will be in there... but not on the top unit.

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02-10-2005, 09:16 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Carl O'Steen
Steen's doing more in the SEL at age 21 than Druken is in the AHL at age 26... or even Wilm at age 28. I don't care if he's a tremendous faceoff man or penalty killer, they're still a -14 and -15 respectively. Meaning, the opposing team has scored 14/15 more goals while on the ice than his line/unit has scored even strength.

I think I've proven that I know more than you. You throw around insults to discredit others POV's and strengthen yours without valid facts.
he's not doing more then druken. druken has far more goals and points then steen. if that's the comparison you want to make, it isn't even close.

all you have are wilm's and druken's bad plus/minus numbers, and that's proof that you know more then me? i'm not the one you'll have to convince, tell it to doug shedden.

you may not care if wilm is a tremendous face off man or penalty killer, but shedden damn well does care. he's the one who would never give wilm's or druken's spot to a kid who has come at the end of the season.

Quote:
He will be in there... but not on the top unit.
where's druken going to be? checking line?

he'll be along side ling and welly, where's he's been most of the season.

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02-10-2005, 09:32 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Frankie


where's druken going to be? checking line?

he'll be along side ling and welly, where's he's been most of the season.
Agreed 100% Harold is here to score goals. He is not going to be a 3rd line banger on the checking line. This is what is holding him back from the NHL. He is offensively good enough to be a top 6 forward but not defensively good enough to play on the third or fourth line. He has already proven that he can score goals in both the NHL and AHL. If Harold ever stayed focused he would be a main stay in the NHL. Every one forgets he had 15 goals and 15 assits in a season with Vancouver.

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