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Scotty Bowmans biggest mistake

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Old
02-12-2005, 01:45 PM
  #26
Macman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
3-3 Tie 1975 Habs-Red Army;

Scoring champ is moved to second line; Cournoyer is moved to first line with Shutt and Mahov; gets star and scores goal but misses a hundred chances on top line.

Scoring champ is relegated to second line with Bob (cant find the side of barn with slap shot) Gainey.

Needless tie. No reason for shuffling.
Naw, his biggest mistake was playing Dryden, who couldn't stop a beach ball that game and was generally pretty brutal against the Soviets.

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02-12-2005, 05:26 PM
  #27
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Pretty sure this is true.

Although he wasn't the GM he had a huge influence on player personnel moves. When Roy became available (after detroit hammered the Habs 11-1) Detroit was one of the teams interested. Wings offered Vernon and Dandenault. Habs wanted Osgood and Dandenault. Wings said no.

Imagine if Roy had been on the Wings instead of the Avanlanche.

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02-12-2005, 06:18 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffey77
Pretty sure this is true.

Although he wasn't the GM he had a huge influence on player personnel moves. When Roy became available (after detroit hammered the Habs 11-1) Detroit was one of the teams interested. Wings offered Vernon and Dandenault. Habs wanted Osgood and Dandenault. Wings said no.

Imagine if Roy had been on the Wings instead of the Avanlanche.
He was nominaly GM at the time.

Once the baloon went up the obvious front runner was Colorado given Roy's friendship with Lacroix and available French goaltenders, so Scotty may have beentrying to desperately derail the deal when it happened.

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02-13-2005, 02:05 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman
Naw, his biggest mistake was playing Dryden, who couldn't stop a beach ball that game and was generally pretty brutal against the Soviets.
I agree he wasnt great against the soviets but the kharlamov goal noone could stop and the tying goal he got a glove on a 2 on nothing and almost stopped it. Also the other goal he got a piece of. He felt baldy afterwards but he wasnt brutal.

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02-13-2005, 10:16 PM
  #30
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I believe his biggest mistake was screamin abusive langauage at referee Jerry Orlinski which resulted in a misconduct and game misconduct in the 1951-52 Memorial Cup final...it led to his move to coaching and management.

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02-14-2005, 07:50 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket Coach
I believe his biggest mistake was screamin abusive langauage at referee Jerry Orlinski which resulted in a misconduct and game misconduct in the 1951-52 Memorial Cup final...it led to his move to coaching and management.
Wouldn't you say that Jean Guy Talbot whacking him over the head with a stick thereby ending his career had a bit to do with it ?

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02-14-2005, 11:40 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Tough crowd! I was reading a book which stated that Bowman never took a team and built them into a winner - that they were already there. Essentialy true especially considering his buffalo experience. He's still the best by far if you ask me. You can knock anyone you want if you really try hard but who would you rather have from teh modern era? Sather? Arbour? Shero? They all failed at some point. Even Blake had a great team you could say.
Actually, he came into a decent environment in Buffalo (he still resides in the area, btw). The Sabres were only a few years removed from a Stanley Cup Finals appearance, with many of the same players still on the roster. Bowman definitely put his stamp on the team (subsequently drafting players such as Barrasso, Andreychuk and Housley). However, not everything can should be pinned on Scotty for the Sabres's lack of success. Other championship-winning GM's had come in (Punch Imlach and John Muckler) and weren't able to lead the franchise to the Holy Grail either. During the mid 80's, some Sabres fans used to say that putting the blue and gold on led to an increase in estrogen levels.

The book you read was spot-on in its assessment. In St. Louis, Scotty had a bunch of Habs cast-offs (Al Arbour played defense there too), in a conference full of expansion teams. Many teams in the Eastern Conference would've been more deserving of a trip to the Finals than the Blues. In Montreal, he got to coach a team of future HOFers. In Buffalo, the results were *mixed*. In Pittsburgh, he inhereted Bob Johnson's squad. The Red Wings were on the verge. So, there's a point of view that the coach/GM has to keep egos in check, create the right chemistry/winning environment with the right personnel decisions. More often than not, he did that.

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02-14-2005, 01:03 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
3-3 Tie 1975 Habs-Red Army;

Scoring champ is moved to second line; Cournoyer is moved to first line with Shutt and Mahov; gets star and scores goal but misses a hundred chances on top line.

Scoring champ is relegated to second line with Bob (cant find the side of barn with slap shot) Gainey.

Needless tie. No reason for shuffling.
chooch...........

I was only 7-years old at the time but to this day that one has got to be one of the best games that I have ever seen........hopefully, TSN will televise that one on one of their CLASSIC NHL game telecasts.

Cheers!

monkey_00

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Old
02-15-2005, 07:55 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob
Actually, he came into a decent environment in Buffalo (he still resides in the area, btw). The Sabres were only a few years removed from a Stanley Cup Finals appearance, with many of the same players still on the roster. Bowman definitely put his stamp on the team (subsequently drafting players such as Barrasso, Andreychuk and Housley). However, not everything can should be pinned on Scotty for the Sabres's lack of success. Other championship-winning GM's had come in (Punch Imlach and John Muckler) and weren't able to lead the franchise to the Holy Grail either. During the mid 80's, some Sabres fans used to say that putting the blue and gold on led to an increase in estrogen levels.

The book you read was spot-on in its assessment. In St. Louis, Scotty had a bunch of Habs cast-offs (Al Arbour played defense there too), in a conference full of expansion teams. Many teams in the Eastern Conference would've been more deserving of a trip to the Finals than the Blues. In Montreal, he got to coach a team of future HOFers. In Buffalo, the results were *mixed*. In Pittsburgh, he inhereted Bob Johnson's squad. The Red Wings were on the verge. So, there's a point of view that the coach/GM has to keep egos in check, create the right chemistry/winning environment with the right personnel decisions. More often than not, he did that.
In Pittsburg he inherited Badger Bob's team, however, he was instrumental in the success of that team having engineered the Ron Francis, Ulf Samuelson trade for John Cullen, Zarley Zalapski

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02-15-2005, 07:58 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee
Wouldn't you say that Jean Guy Talbot whacking him over the head with a stick thereby ending his career had a bit to do with it ?
No, the Jean Guy Talbot incident appears to be a myth...the incident I quoted followed the Jean Guy Talbot stick swinging...he was benched because he was taking penalties and then, the next two years he played for the Nationales...which he left to become anassistant coach with Sam Pollock

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02-15-2005, 08:16 AM
  #36
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Al Arbour > Scotty Bowman

There, i said it.

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02-16-2005, 02:50 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket Coach
No, the Jean Guy Talbot incident appears to be a myth...the incident I quoted followed the Jean Guy Talbot stick swinging...he was benched because he was taking penalties and then, the next two years he played for the Nationales...which he left to become anassistant coach with Sam Pollock
Are you of that era ? I'm just curious as it is different than the oft repeated stories. I asked my father about it [79] and he told me that Scotty last an eye when Talbot hit him. I reminded him that it was Ruel that lost an eye. He asked me if I was sure that Bowman had 2 eyes and I assured him that I was. He told me that he never liked JG Talbot and that Claude Provost was his favorite. Sadly, the days that I can ask my Dad this stuff, appear to be drawing to a close.

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02-16-2005, 08:57 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket Coach
No, the Jean Guy Talbot incident appears to be a myth...the incident I quoted followed the Jean Guy Talbot stick swinging...he was benched because he was taking penalties and then, the next two years he played for the Nationales...which he left to become anassistant coach with Sam Pollock
The steel plate in Bowman's head certainly isn't a myth. It probably didn't end his playing career, but it certainly hurt his NHL potential.

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02-16-2005, 09:42 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee
Are you of that era ? I'm just curious as it is different than the oft repeated stories. I asked my father about it [79] and he told me that Scotty last an eye when Talbot hit him. I reminded him that it was Ruel that lost an eye. He asked me if I was sure that Bowman had 2 eyes and I assured him that I was. He told me that he never liked JG Talbot and that Claude Provost was his favorite. Sadly, the days that I can ask my Dad this stuff, appear to be drawing to a close.
According to Scotty Bowman, A life in Hockey, by Douglas Hunter...there was no metal plate...go to Chapter 2, it goes into great detail dispelling the myth of JG Talbot's stick swining incident ending Scotty's career...I was surprised by this as well

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02-16-2005, 11:03 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket Coach
According to Scotty Bowman, A life in Hockey, by Douglas Hunter...there was no metal plate...go to Chapter 2, it goes into great detail dispelling the myth of JG Talbot's stick swining incident ending Scotty's career...I was surprised by this as well
I knew the steel plate story was a myth. Bowman mentionned this when Crawford made some wiseass comments during the playoffs some years ago.

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02-17-2005, 08:17 PM
  #41
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His biggest mistake: quitting the Montreal Canadiens after their fourth Stanley Cups in 1979. Sure, few of his star players left (Lemaire and Dryden, ???) but he wanted to become GM. He would had hadt hat job within a couple of years if he would had have stayed.

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02-20-2005, 07:40 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habitué
His biggest mistake: quitting the Montreal Canadiens after their fourth Stanley Cups in 1979. Sure, few of his star players left (Lemaire and Dryden, ???) but he wanted to become GM. He would had hadt hat job within a couple of years if he would had have stayed.
True; but to get Grundman fired the team and the coach would have to do badly. no?

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02-21-2005, 03:26 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
True; but to get Grundman fired the team and the coach would have to do badly. no?
Bowman wasn't headed for the GM spot in Montreal. Read Dryden's THE GAME for the behind-the-scenes stuff regarding that.

A pretty good book could be written about Scotty's years in Buffalo. That was a team that potentially could have given the Isles a run for their money. One might say his biggest mistake was that Scotty didn't coach the team himself.

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03-02-2005, 02:05 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moneyp
A pretty good book could be written about Scotty's years in Buffalo. That was a team that potentially could have given the Isles a run for their money. One might say his biggest mistake was that Scotty didn't coach the team himself.
He basically called Richard Martin a "malingerer," and shipped him off to L.A. for next to nothing. Martin's knee injury was serious enough to eventually end his career. Later medical advances would've probably resulted in repairs good enough to extend his time, but Martin was hardly faking it.

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03-02-2005, 02:27 PM
  #45
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Bowman traded Martin for a 1st rounder and a 3rd rounder. The 1st rounder eventually became Tom Barrasso, and Martin went on to play exactly 4 games for LA before retiring. I'd say Bowman won that deal by a pretty substantial margin.

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03-02-2005, 05:17 PM
  #46
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The point was to make note of what it did to Rick Martin's career. If he'd received the proper treatment, he might've been able to continue. If it had been able to continue, he might have been HOF material. Who knows? A lawsuit was even filed, which he, unfortunately lost.

As far as Barrasso (there's a less flattering name from Sabres fans for him, which wouldn't make it past the filter) is concerned, he did get the Calder and Vezina, but he wore out his welcome. That led to a trade for Doug Bodger. So, it turned out much better for the Pens.

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03-02-2005, 05:52 PM
  #47
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Another vote for the Jiri Dudacek first-round selection debacle of the early '80s.

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