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Which trade was worse, Kessel to TOR or Carter to CLB?

View Poll Results: Which trade was worse?
Phil Kessel to Toronto 182 57.05%
Jeff Carter to Columbus 125 39.18%
Both are equally bad and I can't choose just one 12 3.76%
Voters: 319. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-27-2012, 05:08 PM
  #226
Bob Cole
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Why do you think Burke's ego had anything to do with him? He made a trade.
He decided to retool on the fly instead of a traditional rebuild while the team he inherited was a joke. Not even Sam Pollock could of saved that team without a standard rebuild.

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11-27-2012, 05:14 PM
  #227
rdawg1234
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
The flaw with most is they only look at who the Leafs gave up and not the huge difference in what they got compared to what Columbus got in return.
I really dont get why the Kessel trade was THAT bad.

was it a little lopsided yes, but really it's Seguin+Hamilton for an elite winger.

We not have a top 10 scorer on the team, why would I despise the trade when we have a guy like that.

CBJ has nothing if you dont count the trade after(if you do count that you have to count the Kaberle traded which netted a 1st(turned into biggs)+2nd(liles)+Colborne)

Hamilton is probably another year from making the team, and then add a couple from reaching potential(and really he's seems like a pure offensive d-man, not some two-way all-star.)

Seguin basically offsets Kessel, fairly equal in talent, 3-4 years apart in age so it's not like we traded for a veteran player here.

We ultimately lost getting an extra prospect, was it a bad trade? yes, was it a nuts trade that is as terrible as some make it out to be? definitely not, as we werent really that hurt from it. If we kept seguin, we'd be looking for a winger right now.(although yes, that's a bit easier to get.)

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11-27-2012, 05:32 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
I really dont get why the Kessel trade was THAT bad.

was it a little lopsided yes, but really it's Seguin+Hamilton for an elite winger.

We not have a top 10 scorer on the team, why would I despise the trade when we have a guy like that.

CBJ has nothing if you dont count the trade after(if you do count that you have to count the Kaberle traded which netted a 1st(turned into biggs)+2nd(liles)+Colborne)

Hamilton is probably another year from making the team, and then add a couple from reaching potential(and really he's seems like a pure offensive d-man, not some two-way all-star.)

Seguin basically offsets Kessel, fairly equal in talent, 3-4 years apart in age so it's not like we traded for a veteran player here.

We ultimately lost getting an extra prospect, was it a bad trade? yes, was it a nuts trade that is as terrible as some make it out to be? definitely not, as we werent really that hurt from it. If we kept seguin, we'd be looking for a winger right now.(although yes, that's a bit easier to get.)
The voice of reason. Well said Almost my thoughts exactly.

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11-27-2012, 05:34 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Carl Carmoni View Post
He decided to retool on the fly instead of a traditional rebuild while the team he inherited was a joke. Not even Sam Pollock could of saved that team without a standard rebuild.
He traded for a 21 year-old. I think a lot of people miss that part of it. He got a guy to help him for years, not just some 35 year-old for one season.

His "Ego" had nothing to do with it. He saw a player he liked available and went for it.

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11-27-2012, 08:22 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post


Rielly and Gardiner have no bearing on the Kessel trade. Gardiner shows Burke trading skills though.

Had the Kessel trade not happened they would have done worse or equal in the 2011-2012 season with a sophmore Seguin. Seguin got less points albeit in a lesser role in Boston. They would have been able to draft a higher pick (Murray, Galyenchuk, Yakupov)

The Kessel trade improved them last season and this season, but at what future cost

So Rielly and Gardiner do not replace Seguin and Hamilton.

Kessel trade leaves them with:
Kessel, Rielly, Gardiner

No Kessel trade leaves them with
Seguin, Hamilton, Gardiner, Galyenchuk/Yakupov/ Reilly/Murray, 2nd pick from 2011
Also false.

Without Kessel, they might have finished last and (unless they lost the lottery) picked 1st.

A year later, again without Kessel, they might have finished lower than 22nd and drafted Landeskog, Huberdeau, Larson, Couturier, etc.

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11-27-2012, 08:32 PM
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Why do you think Burke's ego had anything to do with him? He made a trade.
You really have to ask the question?

I thought that you did not like Burkie.

His ego got the better of him because he actually believed his magic could turn the Leafs around in one or two years. To paraphrase him, "I'm too old to wait five years..."

EDIT: Obviously, some apologists will chime in and claim it's not what he meant (and should be given 10 more years ).

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11-27-2012, 08:37 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
(...)

CBJ has nothing if you dont count the trade after(if you do count that you have to count the Kaberle ...)

(...)
Why?


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11-28-2012, 09:43 AM
  #233
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Seguin and Hamilton will both be elite top-10 players 4-5 years from now imho

Trade was horrible

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11-28-2012, 09:50 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Carl Carmoni View Post
He decided to retool on the fly instead of a traditional rebuild while the team he inherited was a joke. Not even Sam Pollock could of saved that team without a standard rebuild.
And failed miserably 5 years later and Leafs are in the lottery.

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11-28-2012, 10:09 AM
  #235
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As it stands now the Kessel trade is merely loopsided. A young rising star center and a can't miss prospect for a one dementional winger. 5 years from now it might be historically bad if Seguin develops into a top point getting # 1 center and Hamilton develops into a franchise (or even a first pairing) defensman. Never mind Knight that's just a cherry on top.

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11-28-2012, 01:43 PM
  #236
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I think Seguin and Kessel will have similar outputs over the course of their careers tbh. 80-90 point players, Kessel being a better goal scorer and Seguin being the better playmaker...I also really think Seguin has the potential to be a good defensive player, hes grown leaps and bounds defensively since he came into the league (not Bergy good, Krejci good).

Hamilton + Knight is where the value swings our way...but who really knows what theyll do. Knight could be a complete non factor, and Hamilton could be theoretically as well (although, I dont think many people think he'll bust).

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11-28-2012, 01:48 PM
  #237
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as a Flyers fan, I absolutely loved the Carter trade

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11-28-2012, 07:18 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
As it stands now the Kessel trade is merely loopsided. A young rising star center and a can't miss prospect for a one dementional winger. 5 years from now it might be historically bad if Seguin develops into a top point getting # 1 center and Hamilton develops into a franchise (or even a first pairing) defensman. Never mind Knight that's just a cherry on top.
If not on purpose, in need of a good dictionary.

If on purpose, nice attempt at a zinger if slightly untrue.

He is more than a sniper. He's turned out to be very good at feeding people and developing plays.

Defensively? Might not be a lost cause, but he's got A LOT of work to do.

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11-28-2012, 07:46 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
I really dont get why the Kessel trade was THAT bad.

was it a little lopsided yes, but really it's Seguin+Hamilton for an elite winger.

We not have a top 10 scorer on the team, why would I despise the trade when we have a guy like that.

CBJ has nothing if you dont count the trade after(if you do count that you have to count the Kaberle traded which netted a 1st(turned into biggs)+2nd(liles)+Colborne)

Hamilton is probably another year from making the team, and then add a couple from reaching potential(and really he's seems like a pure offensive d-man, not some two-way all-star.)

Seguin basically offsets Kessel, fairly equal in talent, 3-4 years apart in age so it's not like we traded for a veteran player here.

We ultimately lost getting an extra prospect, was it a bad trade? yes, was it a nuts trade that is as terrible as some make it out to be? definitely not, as we werent really that hurt from it. If we kept seguin, we'd be looking for a winger right now.(although yes, that's a bit easier to get.)
Defiantly didnt benefit from it standings wise. Lottery pick 2 years after getting Kessel

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11-28-2012, 07:48 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Also false.

Without Kessel, they might have finished last and (unless they lost the lottery) picked 1st.

A year later, again without Kessel, they might have finished lower than 22nd and drafted Landeskog, Huberdeau, Larson, Couturier, etc.
True. But Hamilton is tracking just as good as those guys

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11-28-2012, 07:53 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
I think Seguin and Kessel will have similar outputs over the course of their careers tbh. 80-90 point players, Kessel being a better goal scorer and Seguin being the better playmaker...I also really think Seguin has the potential to be a good defensive player, hes grown leaps and bounds defensively since he came into the league (not Bergy good, Krejci good).

Hamilton + Knight is where the value swings our way...but who really knows what theyll do. Knight could be a complete non factor, and Hamilton could be theoretically as well (although, I dont think many people think he'll bust).
Agreed.

If it was Seguin for Kessel I wouldn't be bothered. Hamilton is what kills me, the trade wouldn't look as bad if some GMs weren't so incompetent and took him earlier like where he was supposed to go..

He should of been taken right after Larsson in my opinion, well him or Couturier.

On the bright side Ottawa passed on him so at least he's not a Senator.

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11-28-2012, 09:10 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
If not on purpose, in need of a good dictionary.

If on purpose, nice attempt at a zinger if slightly untrue.

He is more than a sniper. He's turned out to be very good at feeding people and developing plays.

Defensively? Might not be a lost cause, but he's got A LOT of work to do.
Thanks. I didn't think anyone would notice, and I agree a bit of a cheap shot. By one dimensional I meant a lack of defense.

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11-28-2012, 11:11 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Personally, I think it was the Carter trade. Kessel is at least an elite player. Carter is not. Man, if Columbus hadn't made the Carter trade they could have a future 1-2 center punch of Johansen and Couturier, and then that awesome young d-corps of Murray, Erixon, Nikitin, Savard, Moore, etc.

Atkinson-Johansen-Voracek
Dubinsky-Couturier-Anisimov
Foligno-Brassard-Umberger
4th line

Murray-Erixon
Tyutin-Nikitin
Wiz-one of the other kids

And that's a nice young group of players.
I came into this thread to post exactly this. Right on the first page too.

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11-29-2012, 12:11 AM
  #244
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Loooooooooooooooool, thank the Lord for the Kessel trade. Leafs could have had some spectacular plethora of talent in guys like Seguin, Larsson/Landeskog, Yakupov/Reilly while retaining Gardiner. Kessel+Reilly+Gardiner instead is really good but Seguin, imo will be much better all-around and Larsson/Landeskog+ Yakupov/Reilly would have been chaos.

Long story short, Kessel trade was ten times worse because Leafs could have had a game changer in Landeskog/Larsson/Hamilton.

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11-29-2012, 12:54 AM
  #245
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Loooooooooooooooool, thank the Lord for the Kessel trade. Leafs could have had some spectacular plethora of talent in guys like Seguin, Larsson/Landeskog, Yakupov/Reilly while retaining Gardiner. Kessel+Reilly+Gardiner instead is really good but Seguin, imo will be much better all-around and Larsson/Landeskog+ Yakupov/Reilly would have been chaos.

Long story short, Kessel trade was ten times worse because Leafs could have had a game changer in Landeskog/Larsson/Hamilton.
could have been a beast in the east

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11-29-2012, 08:23 AM
  #246
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Loooooooooooooooool, thank the Lord for the Kessel trade. Leafs could have had some spectacular plethora of talent in guys like Seguin, Larsson/Landeskog, Yakupov/Reilly while retaining Gardiner. Kessel+Reilly+Gardiner instead is really good but Seguin, imo will be much better all-around and Larsson/Landeskog+ Yakupov/Reilly would have been chaos.

Long story short, Kessel trade was ten times worse because Leafs could have had a game changer in Landeskog/Larsson/Hamilton.
You seem like a Sens fan. Did you know that Kessel has scored more goals against Ottawa than any other team in the league? Especially when remembering the Spezza/Heatley/Alfredsson days when we would get destroyed by them. Those days are long gone thanks to Kessel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ve4zvWl8N0

loooooolll

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11-29-2012, 09:24 AM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
You seem like a Sens fan. Did you know that Kessel has scored more goals against Ottawa than any other team in the league? Especially when remembering the Spezza/Heatley/Alfredsson days when we would get destroyed by them. Those days are long gone thanks to Kessel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ve4zvWl8N0

loooooolll
Are you trying to say the Leafs are on the same level as Ottawa now or going forward because that's not even close to true.

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11-29-2012, 10:34 AM
  #248
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Are you trying to say the Leafs are on the same level as Ottawa now or going forward because that's not even close to true.
You know me so well , that you can make up words for me and display them as facts. Especially when you're meaning is so vague it can be interpreted in so many ways. You need to read the previous post I was responding to and get back on topic.

No, I didn't say that. In terms of head to head matchup, Kessel scores more goals against Ottawa than any other team meaning he is able to be as lethal to Ottawa as heatley was to the Leafs when he was a senator. And if I were a sens fan, I definitely wouldn't be happy Toronto has Kessel because he is a gamebreaker which I just previously showed you.

PS: In terms of head to head matchup they are even. Let's be honest, Ottawa had a great year last year and Toronto had an epic fall to the end of last season, but let's not get ahead of ourselves and say Ottawa is on another level. That's just being ignorant.


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11-29-2012, 11:31 AM
  #249
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I think the leafs lost more because they gave up quite a few great picks for a guy who, at the time, was still a question mark. No offense to Kessel, who did all he could last season and really grew as a player, but I think Seguin on the leafs has the same, if not greater impact, over the course of 2 seasons. He wouldn't experience the log jam at center in Toronto that he did in his rookie season in Boston so he'd make the team and probably get PT immediately at his natural position. Leafs still bring in Lupul, now they have Hamilton, and everything else being equal....Toronto is still a bubble team but they're deeper and have fewer needs to address.

I think Seguin is the type of player that will get his number regardless of the team. I see the same amount-perhaps more- from him this season on the Leafs. With his speed and skill, he isn't at mercy of any other players in the way a sniper like Kessel tends to be. And he's a guy that's shown great consistency in goal scoring, but if he has a talented center he can push 40 easily.

The Flyers are a playoff team without Carter. Then, consider the pieces they got back. Look at how dangerous Voracek was last season. He'd shown flashes of it in Columbus but now he has a strong group of playmakers surrounding him. Couturier is a great talent. It was a fantastic trade for the Flyers, and detrimental for Columbus, who seemed to be in need of another "star" as well as a center for Nash. Anyone who's watched Carter and watched any Columbus games knew that this would be neutral fit at best. Carter has a shoot first mindset and would be no better equipped to "playmake" for Nash than Umberger. To further exacerbate the issue, Carter did little to counteract the idea that he was lazy and uninspired in his time in Columbus. The Jackets lost some significant pieces and addressed hardly any needs. Thing is, at least Toronto is a bubble team. Columbus was laughably bad last season, and I feel horrible for their fans. The front office completely....completely dropped the ball. At least Johnson came in and injected a bit of energy as Columbus finished on a roll. They have some young players that can excite but the goaltending and the D is just.....well, its a huge need (a lot of youth). Must feel worse having missed that first overall as well.

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11-29-2012, 11:41 AM
  #250
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Originally Posted by frankthetank91 View Post
Agreed.

If it was Seguin for Kessel I wouldn't be bothered. Hamilton is what kills me, the trade wouldn't look as bad if some GMs weren't so incompetent and took him earlier like where he was supposed to go..

He should of been taken right after Larsson in my opinion, well him or Couturier.

On the bright side Ottawa passed on him so at least he's not a Senator.
I think everyone agrees that Hamilton >>> Zibanajed. Sorry Ottawa.

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