Carter was dealt for less; knock off a first from each deal and we see that two mid/high 1sts>Voracek+3rd. Yeah, Carter flopped in Columbus. But he was flipped for Jack Johnson and another first.
So it's now:
Kessel=1st+1st+1st
Johnson+1st=Voracek+1st+3rd
Consider those four packages. To me, both at the time and now, Kessel is the LEAST appealing option. So you can probably guess where I stand.
I believe Kessel was=1st+1st+2nd
Having one of the leagues most dangerous snipers and a ppg player near the top of the league in scoring is the least appealing option? Someone needs to work on their decision making.
There were no guarantees about Seguin nor Murphy. Hell, there still aren't guarantees about them. There was also no guarantee that either pick would be a high pick. Going into Seguin's draft year, the Leafs actually looked very competitive on paper. Thus far, the Leafs have won that trade easily. Kessel has been Toronto's best player since the trade. Murphy has done nothing. Seguin has been good, but not nearly as good as Kessel.
There were no guarantees about Seguin nor Murphy. Hell, there still aren't guarantees about them. There was also no guarantee that either pick would be a high pick. Going into Seguin's draft year, the Leafs actually looked very competitive on paper. Thus far, the Leafs have won that trade easily. Kessel has been Toronto's best player since the trade. Murphy has done nothing. Seguin has been good, but not nearly as good as Kessel.
Lets not get carried away here. Seguins had two seasons in the NHL, and had a great year last year for a 19-20 year old. Seguin also blew Kessels 2nd pro season out of the water.
Then again, if you're not factoring in potential and basing it off of what has happened "thus far," then you're right, the Leafs have won based upon NHL production.
For this to hold up, Hamilton would need to bust completely, and Seguin would have to remain a 67 point scorer for his entire career...seems unlikely to me.
There were no guarantees about Seguin nor Murphy. Hell, there still aren't guarantees about them. There was also no guarantee that either pick would be a high pick. Going into Seguin's draft year, the Leafs actually looked very competitive on paper. Thus far, the Leafs have won that trade easily. Kessel has been Toronto's best player since the trade. Murphy has done nothing. Seguin has been good, but not nearly as good as Kessel.
No they didn't, they looked horrible and played accordingly. Only Burke and the sheep that hang on his every word were fooled. I was appalled at the trade because it was easy to recognize the sorry state of the team.
At first glance, I went with the Carter to Columbus deal.
After digging further and looking at all components of the deal, I STILL have to say the Carter to Columbus deal was the worst of the two.
When you can add a young 22 year old 30 goal scoring winger that had clearly shown signs of improvement year over year for just picks, you do that deal over and over again.
Toronto gave up: Likely top line center (eventually), top defensive prospect, likely bottom six forward prospect
Got: Top 10 RW (top 5?)
Columbus gave up: Likely top 6 center (possible top liner), 2nd line winger, possible bottom six forward prospect
Got from Philly: player that visibly had no desire to be there, had to be traded
Got from LA: underachieving defenseman, (likely) late first. Now whether or not the dman starts playing up to expecations or the first turns out to be a solid prospect leaves this up in the air to how it turned out for Columbus.
As much as i rip on the Kessel trade, the Carter one was worse IMO. They didn't give up as much, though they did give up an established player and a guaranteed top 10 pick for a player that many fans and analysts were questioning on how he'd fit their system. With Kessel there was talk of work ethic issues, but it was clear that he wanted to play in Toronto and was one of the most skilled players. The two picks given up were also total unknowns, so there was a chance it could have turned out to be much better for Toronto then expected had they come close to living up to the expectations that the media put on them. That said the media was also completely out to lunch that year, that Leafs team was nowhere near a playoff team on paper, and turned out even worse in actuality.
Philly got a decent return I feel, considering the caliber of player Carter is.
Toronto got completely fleeced on the Kessel deal. Of course, Burke thought their record would be better, but that was just a poor assessment on his part.
Toronto would love to have Seguin and Hamilton in the system right now far more than Kessel, I'm sure.
The Kessel deal is, for me anyway, by far the worst of the 2. It's not "Milbury bad", but still bad.
Toronto gave up: Likely top line center (eventually), top defensive prospect, likely bottom six forward prospect
Got: Top 10 RW (top 5?)
Columbus gave up: Likely top 6 center (possible top liner), 2nd line winger, possible bottom six forward prospect
Got from Philly: player that visibly had no desire to be there, had to be traded
Got from LA: underachieving defenseman, (likely) late first. Now whether or not the dman starts playing up to expecations or the first turns out to be a solid prospect leaves this up in the air to how it turned out for Columbus.
As much as i rip on the Kessel trade, the Carter one was worse IMO. They didn't give up as much, though they did give up an established player and a guaranteed top 10 pick for a player that many fans and analysts were questioning on how he'd fit their system. With Kessel there was talk of work ethic issues, but it was clear that he wanted to play in Toronto and was one of the most skilled players. The two picks given up were also total unknowns, so there was a chance it could have turned out to be much better for Toronto then expected had they come close to living up to the expectations that the media put on them. That said the media was also completely out to lunch that year, that Leafs team was nowhere near a playoff team on paper, and turned out even worse in actuality.
Agreed and people seem to forget when the Kessel trade was made Toronto had no idea where the draft picks would end up being, where as Columbus knew a lot more what they were giving up.
Plus it's correct that Kessel wants to be in Toronto and from the start Carter never wanted to be in Columbus.
Philly got a decent return I feel, considering the caliber of player Carter is.
Toronto got completely fleeced on the Kessel deal. Of course, Burke thought their record would be better, but that was just a poor assessment on his part.
Toronto would love to have Seguin and Hamilton in the system right now far more than Kessel, I'm sure.
The Kessel deal is, for me anyway, by far the worst of the 2. It's not "Milbury bad", but still bad.
Getting rid of the best player on our team who loves Toronto and was top 6 in league scoring last year. For a budding star and an unproven top prospect. You might want to rethink that.
Kessel by a good margin. CLB mitigated some of the damages when they traded him to LA.
Ofcourse noone could have predicted TML lost out on Seguin and Hamiliton, the same argument can be made about Courtier
Seguin>Coutier Hamilton>> Voracek
knight=cousins? not to familiar
Of course Kessel is better than Carter, but what they have up to get him is by far more than what it took to get Carter
The bolded confuses me...are you saying Hamilton who has yet to play a single NHL game is a far better player than Voracek? I think you'd better hold off on that one for a while.
It's complicated by Toronto not having known which picks they'd be giving up, etc, but really, I think Seguin and Hamilton will be star-calibre NHL players, each > Kessel in their own right. It might not turn out that way. You never really know with young players. But if it does, well... I'll vote Kessel trade being worse... even if just for the potential that Boston gets two franchise players out of it.
Value wise Kessel deal might be worse, but Carter was worse for the CBJs than the Kessel deal was for the Leafs. My analogy about the Kessel deal for the Leafs is that we could've had a double cheeseburger with a large fries and large pop, but ended up with a mozza burger with a small fries/pop. Just because presumably we preferred the former, doesn't mean we didn't leave the restaurant full or satisfied. TOR can build around Kessel big time. Maybe Seguin would've been an even better fit, but TOR is not unhappy about the Kessel trade right now
Value wise Kessel deal might be worse, but Carter was worse for the CBJs than the Kessel deal was for the Leafs. My analogy about the Kessel deal for the Leafs is that we could've had a double cheeseburger with a large fries and large pop, but ended up with a mozza burger with a small fries/pop. Just because presumably we preferred the former, doesn't mean we didn't leave the restaurant full or satisfied. TOR can build around Kessel big time. Maybe Seguin would've been an even better fit, but TOR is not unhappy about the Kessel trade right now
Better analogy:
Burke started the evening with $10, and he walked past a food cart. The food cart had hot dogs, So Burke bought one for $7. Now he only has $3, but he has a hot dog. He keeps on walking, and see other carts that have better stuff, but he would have needed to keep that $7. Now he wishes he hadn't bought that hot dog.
Burke started the evening with $10, and he walked past a food cart. The food cart had hot dogs, So Burke bought one for $7. Now he only has $3, but he has a hot dog. He keeps on walking, and see other carts that have better stuff, but he would have needed to keep that $7. Now he wishes he hadn't bought that hot dog.
Change that hot dog to a 4 star gourmet meal and the stuff in the other carts to ingredients that can make a 5 star gourmet meal if made properly and your analogy would be accurate.
The bolded confuses me...are you saying Hamilton who has yet to play a single NHL game is a far better player than Voracek? I think you'd better hold off on that one for a while.
Voracek can play top six role but has a career high of 50 pts.
Hamilton is the best d prospect right now. So right now I think having a potential franchise d has more value than an above average winger on potential alone. In the future assuming normal progession Hamilton will have much more vlaue
The funny thing about this thread is, if I call Kessel a franchise player I'm lambasted for it. Calling a prospect a franchise player? No problem!
Phil Kessel is laughably underrated around here. Even know, people act like he's nothing. He just got a PPG season from playing with Bozak. Remember how **** he was supposed to be without Marc Savard?
I know you guys want this trade to be as bad as possible for the Leafs, but quit overhyping prospects. At least the Jared Knight comments have died-down. It was hilarious hearing the hyperbole over a projected bottom 6 player.
And Columbus got Jack Johnson and a 30th overall pick. Good for them. That trade was a nightmare. Carter went MIA the second he was traded to the Jackets. Jack Johnson is not that good at all. That's not a trade a franchise that loses millions a year needed.
The funny thing about this thread is, if I call Kessel a franchise player I'm lambasted for it. Calling a prospect a franchise player? No problem!
Phil Kessel is laughably underrated around here. Even know, people act like he's nothing. He just got a PPG season from playing with Bozak. Remember how **** he was supposed to be without Marc Savard?
I know you guys want this trade to be as bad as possible for the Leafs, but quit overhyping prospects. At least the Jared Knight comments have died-down. It was hilarious hearing the hyperbole over a projected bottom 6 player.
And Columbus got Jack Johnson and a 30th overall pick. Good for them. That trade was a nightmare. Carter went MIA the second he was traded to the Jackets. Jack Johnson is not that good at all. That's not a trade a franchise that loses millions a year needed.
Tyler Seguin is still a good player, however just because his 2nd NHL season was better then Phil Kessel's 2nd NHL season is no reason to say he will be the better player. As for Dougie Hamilton I'm sure he will be a very good NHL Defensman, however let's see him play in the NHL before others call him a franchise player. So I still say today Phil Kessel is the better player then both of them combined.
Last edited by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER: 11-20-2012 at 06:15 PM.
Toronto did not trade for Kessel. They offer sheeted him.
Boston got compensation based on what Toronto signed Kessel for.
It was a trade.
Besides even if it was an offer sheet then Toronto would have given Boston their 1st, 2nd & 3rd round picks in 2010. So Boston would never have selected Dougie Hamilton because he was picked 9th overall in the 2011 Draft with the other 1st round pick from the Maple Leafs.
Voracek can play top six role but has a career high of 50 pts.
Hamilton is the best d prospect right now. So right now I think having a potential franchise d has more value than an above average winger on potential alone. In the future assuming normal progession Hamilton will have much more vlaue
Assuming...you guys have been doing a lot of that recently.
EDIT
I hope you don't mind but I used your quote for an argument in another thread where a poster said he hasn't heard any poster mention that Hamilton will be franchise D man in the NHL.
Someone needs to work on their decision making.
Getting rid of the best player on our team who loves Toronto and was top 6 in league scoring last year. For a budding star and an unproven top prospect. You might want to rethink that.
