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Which trade was worse, Kessel to TOR or Carter to CLB?

View Poll Results: Which trade was worse?
Phil Kessel to Toronto 183 57.19%
Jeff Carter to Columbus 125 39.06%
Both are equally bad and I can't choose just one 12 3.75%
Voters: 320. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-23-2012, 06:21 PM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Burke can admit he lost the trade.. yet Toronto fans can't.

Apparently now even we have to realize that the trade wasn't Kessel for Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight but actually Kessel, Gardiner, Lupul, Rielly, Finn, Percy and anything else positive in the Leafs organization for Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight.
Thats not the issue for most Leafs fans in regards to this thread. The issue is that CBJ lost WORSE. Its not even an arguement.

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11-23-2012, 06:29 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Burke can admit he lost the trade.. yet Toronto fans can't.

Apparently now even we have to realize that the trade wasn't Kessel for Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight but actually Kessel, Gardiner, Lupul, Rielly, Finn, Percy and anything else positive in the Leafs organization for Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight.
Not sure you are getting what I am say. The Kessel deal was bad, I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing the fact that it wasn't as bad as the Carter trade (which is the point of the thread) because the leafs are still benefiting from that trade and it hasn't significantly affected their present and future talent level by a great degree. (Thats where Gardiner, Lupul Rielly etc come in).

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11-23-2012, 08:35 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Burke can admit he lost the trade.. yet Toronto fans can't.

Apparently now even we have to realize that the trade wasn't Kessel for Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight but actually Kessel, Gardiner, Lupul, Rielly, Finn, Percy and anything else positive in the Leafs organization for Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight.
This simply is not true. Visit the Leafs board sometime and then tell me Leaf fans don't admit they lost the trade.

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11-24-2012, 12:18 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
Are you saying Chiarelli lost the deal right when he made it? Draft picks turn into players. First round picks turn into good players a lot of the time...if Chiarelli thought the two high draft picks were going to turn into fire engines, he wouldnt have traded Phil Kessel for them. If the Maple Leafs ended up finishing in the middle of the pack, we could have drafted Tarasenko instead, or Cam Fowler, etc etc. Just because Burke didnt "know" Seguin was going to be the draft pick , doest mean those three assets Burke traded weren't incredibly valuable assets at the time he traded them. Why are you defending Burke with this? He made a calculated risk and it didn't turn out as planned, fine. You still got a good player out of it. Hes re stocked your farm system, hes done a number of other things, this trade wasn't his shining moment tho.

How do you value a trade like this if you don't base it off of the players drafted? Just because Burke didn't trade Seguin and Hamilton for Kessel doesnt mean he shouldnt be criticized for making the deal. Chiarelli didn't knowingly trade Phil Kessel for three scrubs...he knew he was going to get three valuable players in that draft when he traded him.

Should all GMs get a get out of jail free card when they trade high draft picks without knowing who the pick is gonna be?
No I didn't mean it like that. At the time when the trade was made no one knew where the Maple Leafs draft picks would have ended up for Boston. From their point of view they got very lucky with Seguin and I'm sure it will be the same with Hamilton and Knight being the wild card among the three. However Phil Kessel has not been a disappointment with his play in Toronto.

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11-24-2012, 12:21 AM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n00bxQb View Post
Both these trades weren't bad on paper, but due to gross misjudgments by their respective GMs as to the quality of the teams they had assembled, they turned out horrible.

Also, keep in mind that a 2nd (Brandon Saad) and 3rd (Michael Paliotta) round pick to get the 2nd (Jared Knight) to threaten an offer-sheet on Kessel to make the deal in the first place, so it was really 5 draft picks that were traded to get Kessel.

In retrospect, I don't think any GM would trade Tyler Seguin, Dougie Hamilton, Brandon Saad, and Michael Paliotta (the picks Toronto would've had if they hadn't made the 2 trades to get Kessel) for Phil Kessel.
To be fair no one has ever included Brandon Saad and Michael Paliotta as being apart of the Kessel trade. So no matter how you want to spin it and etc, they had nothing to do with it.

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11-24-2012, 08:18 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Oh yeah because if Leaf fans let it go I'm sure the talk will disappear
It doesn't help Roger when people make a a thread on Dougie Hamilton and you chime in "Hamilton is only getting recgonition because of this trade"... You don't help the situation saying that kind of stuff in a completely nonrelated thread to Kessel/trades.. YOU bring it up. Yes, other fans/parties are guilty too... but you can't control those people/situations you can only control yourself.... and those people who bring it up are looking for the EXACT reaction you and other die hards like you give, "feeding the trolls" almost.

Just let it go.

I get the point of this poll is because one Leaf fan (or several) have been told time and time again the Kessel deal was horrible that finally there is another bad deal made that they can point their finger and say "A-HA!!... We're not the worst see!!!"

Just let it go guys... those of you who have let it go, cheers, let's hope we can watch these fine young players in all these trades hit the ice soon!!

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Old
11-24-2012, 08:22 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Hamilton>> Voracek
Woah woah woah.

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11-24-2012, 09:29 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
No I didn't mean it like that. At the time when the trade was made no one knew where the Maple Leafs draft picks would have ended up for Boston. From their point of view they got very lucky with Seguin and I'm sure it will be the same with Hamilton and Knight being the wild card among the three. However Phil Kessel has not been a disappointment with his play in Toronto.
Well but you could say that Burke should have known, or rather guessed, that at least one of the picks could very well be a lottery one. Trading is about evaluating assets... and for that matter, picks are little different than players. When you trade a player, you look at how good he is, if he will develop or decline, what his contracts look like etc, and if you misjudge it and trade away a player that becomes great or overpay for one that disappoints, you're gonna get blasted for it. The same, before trading draft picks you should evaluate how high they will be and what the draft class looks like, and if you do it wrong like burke did, well, he gets blasted too. It's too easy to say Burke yould not have known. He's the GM, he's the one that should know best how his team is gonna finish.

Of course there was misfourtune involved, like Toskala sucking mightily and Hamilton falling to 9th (let's see how he develops), but the point still stands.

It's like when Vancouver traded Neely or Pittsburgh traded Naslund, I don't hear "they coould not have known how they turn out" about those trades.

Agreed about Kessel not being a disappointment though, he's a great player and should hit 40 soon enough.

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11-24-2012, 09:49 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Uncle Howie View Post
It doesn't help Roger when people make a a thread on Dougie Hamilton and you chime in "Hamilton is only getting recgonition because of this trade"... You don't help the situation saying that kind of stuff in a completely nonrelated thread to Kessel/trades.. YOU bring it up. Yes, other fans/parties are guilty too... but you can't control those people/situations you can only control yourself.... and those people who bring it up are looking for the EXACT reaction you and other die hards like you give, "feeding the trolls" almost.

Just let it go.

I get the point of this poll is because one Leaf fan (or several) have been told time and time again the Kessel deal was horrible that finally there is another bad deal made that they can point their finger and say "A-HA!!... We're not the worst see!!!"

Just let it go guys... those of you who have let it go, cheers, let's hope we can watch these fine young players in all these trades hit the ice soon!!
Please show me where I have ever said that. I believe you're mistaking my Jared Knight comments for Hamilton. You are wrong.

And if Leaf fans "Let It Go" it will still be mentioned a million times by others. It's far from over.


Last edited by RogerRoeper*: 11-24-2012 at 09:56 AM.
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Old
11-26-2012, 01:58 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Please show me where I have ever said that. I believe you're mistaking my Jared Knight comments for Hamilton. You are wrong.

And if Leaf fans "Let It Go" it will still be mentioned a million times by others. It's far from over.
What you're saying is probably true, there are many prospects with Knights pedigree. On the other hand, I've seen him numerous times, I think hes a pretty safe bet at this point to be a third line winger...his upside is the only thing about him I question. I wouldnt bet on him being a top six winger, but I am fairly confident he'll be an NHL forward at some point.

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11-26-2012, 02:12 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
No I didn't mean it like that. At the time when the trade was made no one knew where the Maple Leafs draft picks would have ended up for Boston. From their point of view they got very lucky with Seguin and I'm sure it will be the same with Hamilton and Knight being the wild card among the three. However Phil Kessel has not been a disappointment with his play in Toronto.
You shouldn't give Burke the benefit of the doubt because he "didn't know it was going to be Seguin." Its his job to forecast where his team will finish in the standings, the fact that they finished far worse than he thought was HIS fault, he calculated wrong. It happens.

He knew going into it that he was trading three HIGH picks...Chiarelli went into it knowing he was going to get three HIGH picks...you wouldnt have gotten Kessel if those picks werent good ones. No one knew it was going to be Seguin, but even at the deals inception it was a well known fact that the picks were going to net three good prospects.

This isnt the same scenario as trading a 5th round pick for Adam McQuaid who ended up being Jamie Benn, this is trading what initially was thought as two top ten picks and a high 2nd rounder. This is Burke trading great assets for another great asset, which is always a calculated risk.

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11-26-2012, 05:50 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
You shouldn't give Burke the benefit of the doubt because he "didn't know it was going to be Seguin."Its his job to forecast where his team will finish in the standings, the fact that they finished far worse than he thought was HIS fault, he calculated wrong. It happens.

He knew going into it that he was trading three HIGH picks...Chiarelli went into it knowing he was going to get three HIGH picks...you wouldnt have gotten Kessel if those picks werent good ones. No one knew it was going to be Seguin, but even at the deals inception it was a well known fact that the picks were going to net three good prospects.

This isnt the same scenario as trading a 5th round pick for Adam McQuaid who ended up being Jamie Benn, this is trading what initially was thought as two top ten picks and a high 2nd rounder. This is Burke trading great assets for another great asset, which is always a calculated risk.
His job is to construct a team capable of reaching the playoffs that year. That is the goal for any gm at the beginning of the season. It's not to guess on where his team will finish at the end so he can prepare for next year's draft especially at the beginning of the season. His efforts should have been about assessing his team and getting them in the playoffs which it was when getting Kessel. Obviously he should have prepared better for any type of situation and should not have made such a big gamble at such an early stage in the season, but in no way was that more important than getting the leafs into the playoffs that year.

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11-26-2012, 08:54 PM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
He knew going into it that he was trading three HIGH picks...Chiarelli went into it knowing he was going to get three HIGH picks...you wouldnt have gotten Kessel if those picks werent good ones. No one knew it was going to be Seguin, but even at the deals inception it was a well known fact that the picks were going to net three good prospects.
I highly doubt Burke thought he would have traded the 2nd and 31st picks in 2010 and the 9th overall pick in 2011. Myself and other Maple Leafs fans admit from that point of view the trade was a mistake. However Burke thought they would have been a Playoff contender and why he made the trade. So it was a gamble that didn't work out from that prospective, even though stats wise Kessel has not been a disppoinment and everyone thought he couldn't play without Marc Savard.

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11-26-2012, 10:26 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Toronto gave up the best players in that deal

Columbus did not

Toronto is easily worst
Eric Lindros was the best player in the deal when he was traded to Philly. Philly certainly didn't win that deal.

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11-26-2012, 10:35 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by iPunch View Post
Nope. Good player, but lets talk again when Seguin is one of the 6 players in the NHL to go PPG.
You're funny. Haha.

Thats awesome. For a second I thought you actually believed that!!

Good one...keep them coming. I'm hooked!

Later

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11-26-2012, 10:38 PM
  #191
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Had to vote for Jeff Carter because he did so little as a Blue Jacket then got flipped for Jack Johnson. At least Kessel is something, Jack Johnson on a long term $4.4 million/year deal is nothing I would want to touch.

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11-26-2012, 10:39 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
And passing.
Woooo WHOOOOO!

You guys are awesome! Seriously...you and i-Punch should tour together! Holy crap...I cant stop laughing when I read your posts!

Just awesome guys.....keep it up!

Later

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11-26-2012, 11:24 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
Change that hot dog to a 4 star gourmet meal and the stuff in the other carts to ingredients that can make a 5 star gourmet meal if made properly and your analogy would be accurate.
I'd call Seguin a 4-star if Kessel is.

Kessel played 3:07 minutes more per game thann Seguin did. Seguins point totals were negatively impacted by the Bruins far greater forward depth than Torontos. If Seguin were playing for Toronto, he would have got 20 minutes per night...and all but guaranteed been their #1 center.

But anyway....lets look at that difference in daily ice time. That 3:07 difference equates to a total of an additional 251.75 minutes over the course of the season that Kessel played. Based on Seguins 16:56 of actual minutes per night....thats 15.2 more games that Seguin could have played. Also, Kessel played 53 more seconds of PP time during the season.

Boston has so much more quality depth at forward, that they spread the ice time much more evenly than Toronto does. That in itself seriously impacts his point totals in a major way...as it does Krejci, Bergerons, and Lucics.

And despite that absolutely HUGE difference in ice time...Kessel put up a measly 15 more points than Segun did.

Then add in Seguin being a good defensive player...and much better on the draw. AND the fact that Kessel has SIX NHL seasons uner his belt, to Seguins 2.

At WORST, they are equals. At worst.

And the exciting thing is this....Seguin hasnt scratched the surface of what he can become.

Then add Hamilton....and SERIOUSLY ask yourself this question: Do you REALLY believe that Hamilton will not AT LEAST become a very, very good #2, and HIGHLY LIKELY a good solid #1. Not saying a superstar. But a good solid #1 d man.

Many people compare his potential to a much bigger Scott Neidermeyer.

Later

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11-26-2012, 11:31 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
You are right, although I don't think it was necessarily the trade that allowed him to win the cup, but more of the read that his team would still be a contending team without Kessel in the lineup. Don't think Seguin or Hamilton played major roles on that playoff team. But it strengthens your argument about Burke making a bad read on his teams success.
Seguin played a VERY big part of that run. He turned the Tampa Bay series around when he got into the line-up. He was the best player on the ice for 3 games in that series....hands down the best.

Later

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11-26-2012, 11:31 PM
  #195
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Mind boggling that Toronto fans still defend the Kessel. Yes Kessel is very good. Doesn't mean you won the trade.



You lost it.




By a lot.

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11-26-2012, 11:34 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
The only thing Kessel is better at than Seguin is shooting and skating. Seguin is better at every other aspect.
Just imagine if Kessel played with a #1 center,what would his point total would be?

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11-26-2012, 11:39 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
Mind boggling that Toronto fans still defend the Kessel. Yes Kessel is very good. Doesn't mean you won the trade.



You lost it.




By a lot.
I think you missed it: most Leaf fans in this thread and on the board admit we lost the Kessel trade. We, by no means, won that trade. Kessel > Seguin at the moment but it's pretty darn likely that it'll be the other way around in 2 years. Even if Hamilton doesn't amount to anything, we know we still could've done better had we kept the pick. What we're arguing is that the Carter trade was worse for CBJ than the Kessel trade was for us. At least we still have a producing Kessel. Now, that being said, if Kessel leaves via FA, then yeah, we get royally screwed.

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11-26-2012, 11:43 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Kessel because it just wasn't what Toronto needed at the time of the trade. Kessel and Seguin are about equal right now and Hamilton would be huge. Imagine if Toronto had Hamilton and Rielly as Juniors both right now.. Wow, scary future top pairing.
Now they have Reilly and Gardiner instead

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11-26-2012, 11:49 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
It's too bad only us Maple Leafs fans can see things like that. You are correct that no one knew when Kessel got traded those two 1st round picks and 2nd round pick would become Tyler Seguin, Jared Knight and Dougie Hamilton. Brian Burke took a risk and it didn't work out if you value those draft picks a lot more, however Toronto still got a proven high scoring right winger who is always good for 30-40 goals.


Later

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11-26-2012, 11:50 PM
  #200
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Just imagine if Kessel played with a #1 center,what would his point total would be?
He already had that in Boston and didnt do much with it.

Later

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