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Which trade was worse, Kessel to TOR or Carter to CLB?

View Poll Results: Which trade was worse?
Phil Kessel to Toronto 182 57.05%
Jeff Carter to Columbus 125 39.18%
Both are equally bad and I can't choose just one 12 3.76%
Voters: 319. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-26-2012, 11:56 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Jeff from Maine View Post
He already had that in Boston and didnt do much with it.

Later
Players change, and shockingly, can even get better over time.


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11-27-2012, 12:19 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by bobg1 View Post
Now they have Reilly and Gardiner instead


Rielly and Gardiner have no bearing on the Kessel trade. Gardiner shows Burke trading skills though.

Had the Kessel trade not happened they would have done worse or equal in the 2011-2012 season with a sophmore Seguin. Seguin got less points albeit in a lesser role in Boston. They would have been able to draft a higher pick (Murray, Galyenchuk, Yakupov)

The Kessel trade improved them last season and this season, but at what future cost

So Rielly and Gardiner do not replace Seguin and Hamilton.

Kessel trade leaves them with:
Kessel, Rielly, Gardiner

No Kessel trade leaves them with
Seguin, Hamilton, Gardiner, Galyenchuk/Yakupov/ Reilly/Murray, 2nd pick from 2011

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11-27-2012, 02:15 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Jeff from Maine View Post
I'd call Seguin a 4-star if Kessel is.

Kessel played 3:07 minutes more per game thann Seguin did. Seguins point totals were negatively impacted by the Bruins far greater forward depth than Torontos. If Seguin were playing for Toronto, he would have got 20 minutes per night...and all but guaranteed been their #1 center.

But anyway....lets look at that difference in daily ice time. That 3:07 difference equates to a total of an additional 251.75 minutes over the course of the season that Kessel played. Based on Seguins 16:56 of actual minutes per night....thats 15.2 more games that Seguin could have played. Also, Kessel played 53 more seconds of PP time during the season.

Boston has so much more quality depth at forward, that they spread the ice time much more evenly than Toronto does. That in itself seriously impacts his point totals in a major way...as it does Krejci, Bergerons, and Lucics.

And despite that absolutely HUGE difference in ice time...Kessel put up a measly 15 more points than Segun did.

Then add in Seguin being a good defensive player...and much better on the draw. AND the fact that Kessel has SIX NHL seasons uner his belt, to Seguins 2.

At WORST, they are equals. At worst.

And the exciting thing is this....Seguin hasnt scratched the surface of what he can become.

Then add Hamilton....and SERIOUSLY ask yourself this question: Do you REALLY believe that Hamilton will not AT LEAST become a very, very good #2, and HIGHLY LIKELY a good solid #1. Not saying a superstar. But a good solid #1 d man.

Many people compare his potential to a much bigger Scott Neidermeyer.

Later
That's pretty high praise for Seguin and pretty high expectations proclaiming he is better than the six best scorer in the NHL based on stats.

Listen, you can spit out all the statistics you want but that's all just probabilities you're twisting to make it look like facts. He could have beaten Kessel's total, but then again, he could have gone on a huge pointless streak. You can say Seguin is better defensively and on faceoffs and I'll just counter with Kessel is faster, is a waaayyyy better sniper, can produce and create offense out of nothing all by himself and HAS PROVEN to be one of the top offensive players in the NHL. (I don't have to rely on probabilities and potential to say that). Let's not forget, he's a better playmaker than Seguin too. After all, he was able to get Lupul up to 67 points...hmm that's the same amount of points Seguin has. Oh and Lupul played 15 less games. But go ahead and keep researching stats if it makes you feel better.

And a comparison to Neidermayer? . On the leafs board Boston fans were mocking Bob Mckenzie for referencing Morgan Rielly skating like Scott Neidermayer and you actually compare Hamilton who is slower than Rielly to Neidermayer when Neidermayer's main strength was his skating. You might want to recheck your logic on that one.

Not saying Hamilton won't be good (double negative) but I'm not saying he'll jump right to one of the top dman in the league when he has never played an NHL game. I don't know if you've considered this, but there are good players in this league, Hamilton will be facing players like Stamkos, Staal, Crosby, Malkin, Giroux... elite players that he'll have to shutdown every night. Think about that before calling him an instant Norris Winner and the next Scott Neidermayer.


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11-27-2012, 02:39 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Jeff from Maine View Post
Seguin played a VERY big part of that run. He turned the Tampa Bay series around when he got into the line-up. He was the best player on the ice for 3 games in that series....hands down the best.

Later
I shouldn't even have to go into this? You think Seguin played a very big part? Did he even play in all of the playoff games? I'm sorry that you think three games is a big part of the Stanley Cup playoffs but the whole run is what bonds a team together. Usually playing a big part means winning series after series. Coming in relatively fresh because of an injured player isn't what I call being a big part of that team. Boston was already a contender without Seguin in the lineup. He wasn't a big part of that team at all. He was a borderline healthy scratch player that came in relief of an injured player. (Therefore, not intended to be on the active roster)

A lot later, hopefully...

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11-27-2012, 11:05 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
I shouldn't even have to go into this? You think Seguin played a very big part? Did he even play in all of the playoff games? I'm sorry that you think three games is a big part of the Stanley Cup playoffs but the whole run is what bonds a team together. Usually playing a big part means winning series after series. Coming in relatively fresh because of an injured player isn't what I call being a big part of that team. Boston was already a contender without Seguin in the lineup. He wasn't a big part of that team at all. He was a borderline healthy scratch player that came in relief of an injured player. (Therefore, not intended to be on the active roster)

A lot later, hopefully...
Seguin literally won us SC games. I woudlnt say "very large," but to say he had no effect is just completely wrong. And what do u mean "usually a big part means winning series after series?" Did you just make that definition up?

I disagree with the poster you quoted, but if people think Seguin didn't play a part they're just haters.

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11-27-2012, 11:15 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
That's pretty high praise for Seguin and pretty high expectations proclaiming he is better than the six best scorer in the NHL based on stats.

Listen, you can spit out all the statistics you want but that's all just probabilities you're twisting to make it look like facts. He could have beaten Kessel's total, but then again, he could have gone on a huge pointless streak. You can say Seguin is better defensively and on faceoffs and I'll just counter with Kessel is faster, is a waaayyyy better sniper, can produce and create offense out of nothing all by himself and HAS PROVEN to be one of the top offensive players in the NHL. (I don't have to rely on probabilities and potential to say that). Let's not forget, he's a better playmaker than Seguin too. After all, he was able to get Lupul up to 67 points...hmm that's the same amount of points Seguin has. Oh and Lupul played 15 less games. But go ahead and keep researching stats if it makes you feel better.

And a comparison to Neidermayer? . On the leafs board Boston fans were mocking Bob Mckenzie for referencing Morgan Rielly skating like Scott Neidermayer and you actually compare Hamilton who is slower than Rielly to Neidermayer when Neidermayer's main strength was his skating. You might want to recheck your logic on that one.

Not saying Hamilton won't be good (double negative) but I'm not saying he'll jump right to one of the top dman in the league when he has never played an NHL game. I don't know if you've considered this, but there are good players in this league, Hamilton will be facing players like Stamkos, Staal, Crosby, Malkin, Giroux... elite players that he'll have to shutdown every night. Think about that before calling him an instant Norris Winner and the next Scott Neidermayer.
Kessel being faster than Seguin is debatable, or at least a negligible difference. Both have absolute wheels. Kessel is absolutely not a better playmaker than Kessel, come on. I'll give you that hes a better "sniper," although I wouldnt be surprised if that became equal after a few years. Some of Seguins shots have been terrific.

Also, if we're talking about "proven," Kessel "proved" that he was one of the best point producers in the NHL in his 6th NHL season. Seguin put up 67 points in his 2nd year, a number that is larger than Kessels first FIVE.

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11-27-2012, 11:20 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
His job is to construct a team capable of reaching the playoffs that year. That is the goal for any gm at the beginning of the season. It's not to guess on where his team will finish at the end so he can prepare for next year's draft especially at the beginning of the season. His efforts should have been about assessing his team and getting them in the playoffs which it was when getting Kessel. Obviously he should have prepared better for any type of situation and should not have made such a big gamble at such an early stage in the season, but in no way was that more important than getting the leafs into the playoffs that year.
Huh? Yes, GMs job is to win obviously. Thought that was implied...guess not?

In terms of this trade, Burkes job was to forecast where theyd finish, and he completely failed at that. It happens tho, you still got a good player.

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11-27-2012, 11:31 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
Seguin literally won us SC games. I woudlnt say "very large," but to say he had no effect is just completely wrong. And what do u mean "usually a big part means winning series after series?" Did you just make that definition up?

I disagree with the poster you quoted, but if people think Seguin didn't play a part they're just haters.
I meant being involved in the entire journey. Jumping in fresh halfway through while your teammates have all the bumps and bruises of the previous hard fought series win isn't what I call being a big part of that series. I'll give you the point that he played a part, but like I said before, he was not in Boston's active lineup and Boston was still a major contender without him in the lineup.

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11-27-2012, 11:44 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
Kessel being faster than Seguin is debatable, or at least a negligible difference. Both have absolute wheels. Kessel is absolutely not a better playmaker than Kessel, come on. I'll give you that hes a better "sniper," although I wouldnt be surprised if that became equal after a few years. Some of Seguins shots have been terrific.

Also, if we're talking about "proven," Kessel "proved" that he was one of the best point producers in the NHL in his 6th NHL season. Seguin put up 67 points in his 2nd year, a number that is larger than Kessels first FIVE.
Haha no it's not. Kessel's speed is the deadliest part of his game. If Seguin by some sense is faster than Kessel (which I sincerely doubt) in no way does he use it as efficiently as Kessel does to continously beat defenders in off the rush. So in that sense I'd say Kessel is faster even if Seguin could manage to beat Kessel in a race.

I could give you a whole highlight reel based on how good Kessel's playmaking is. Not only did he make Lupul better, he made Bozak and Phaneuf better. Plus the fact that he has more assists than Seguin should say something anyway.

Once again you are mentioning Kessel's past. Development is different for everyone. I don't care about Kessel's past compared to Seguin because they aren't the same person. All I know is that Seguin is a 67 point player who hasn't proven that he is in the top 10 in NHL scoring and Kessel has. I don't see how you can twist your way around that without mentioning your "hopes and expectations" for him in the future. All just speculation btw.

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11-27-2012, 11:45 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
I meant being involved in the entire journey. Jumping in fresh halfway through while your teammates have all the bumps and bruises of the previous hard fought series win isn't what I call being a big part of that series. I'll give you the point that he played a part, but like I said before, he was not in Boston's active lineup and Boston was still a major contender without him in the lineup.
He still singlehandedly turned around a series. Stop trying to downplay Seguin to make yourself feel better about such an atrocious move.

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11-27-2012, 11:48 AM
  #211
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Haha no it's not. Kessel's speed is the deadliest part of his game. If Seguin by some sense is faster than Kessel (which I sincerely doubt) in no way does he use it as efficiently as Kessel does to continously beat defenders in off the rush. So in that sense I'd say Kessel is faster even if Seguin could manage to beat Kessel in a race.

I could give you a whole highlight reel based on how good Kessel's playmaking is. Not only did he make Lupul better, he made Bozak and Phaneuf better. Plus the fact that he has more assists than Seguin should say something anyway.

Once again you are mentioning Kessel's past. Development is different for everyone. I don't care about Kessel's past compared to Seguin because they aren't the same person. All I know is that Seguin is a 67 point player who hasn't proven that he is in the top 10 in NHL scoring and Kessel has. I don't see how you can twist your way around that without mentioning your "hopes and expectations" for him in the future. All just speculation btw.
Yes Kessel is a very good player. Seguin is not far off and on top of that Boston has one best prospects in hockey and another mid level prospect. You lost the trade big time. Just stop. Posts like this are the reason Leaf fans get no respect.

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11-27-2012, 11:48 AM
  #212
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He still singlehandedly turned around a series. Stop trying to downplay Seguin to make yourself feel better about such an atrocious move.
Why?

Honestly though, if you want to believe he was the saviour of your playoff run go ahead, I couldn't care less. He just didn't look like a big part of that run to me and I was watching the whole playoff run.

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11-27-2012, 11:50 AM
  #213
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Yes Kessel is a very good player. Seguin is not far off and on top of that Boston has one best prospects in hockey and another mid level prospect. You lost the trade big time. Just stop. Posts like this are the reason Leaf fans get no respect.
Why? Because we think Kessel is a better player than Seguin? Who could even imagine that?


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11-27-2012, 01:51 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
Haha no it's not. Kessel's speed is the deadliest part of his game. If Seguin by some sense is faster than Kessel (which I sincerely doubt) in no way does he use it as efficiently as Kessel does to continously beat defenders in off the rush. So in that sense I'd say Kessel is faster even if Seguin could manage to beat Kessel in a race.

I could give you a whole highlight reel based on how good Kessel's playmaking is. Not only did he make Lupul better, he made Bozak and Phaneuf better. Plus the fact that he has more assists than Seguin should say something anyway.

Once again you are mentioning Kessel's past. Development is different for everyone. I don't care about Kessel's past compared to Seguin because they aren't the same person. All I know is that Seguin is a 67 point player who hasn't proven that he is in the top 10 in NHL scoring and Kessel has. I don't see how you can twist your way around that without mentioning your "hopes and expectations" for him in the future. All just speculation btw.
So its not debatable that Kessel is faster than Seguin even though Seguin could potentially beat Kessel in a race? What? Seguin routinely blows by opposing defensman, just like Kessel. Thats why its debatable. I'm not gonna argue about two burners when theres no way to tell except for head to head.

And of course I'm mentioning Kessels past, because Seguin has had TWO years in the NHL, while Kessel has had SIX. Seguin is 20 and Kessel is 25 lol, how can you not mention past when comparing two players that far apart?

Projection is a part of hockey, if you dont think Seguin will be better than a 67 point player than I dont know what to tell you. Even the most biased Leaf fans can realize Seguin has PPG player written all over him, at least. The "hes only a 67 point player right now" argument doesnt leave any room for discussion or debate, so I'm just gonna leave it at that.

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11-27-2012, 02:07 PM
  #215
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Why? Because we think Kessel is a better player than Seguin? Who could even imagine that?
No, because you're acting like Seguin is some stiff who will never improve. Projecting how players produce is part of the game. You really don't think Seguin will improve beyond 67 points in his career? Please, thats ridiculous. Nothing thus far has suggested he wont improve haha.

Expectations and projections are part of the game.

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11-27-2012, 02:16 PM
  #216
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No, because you're acting like Seguin is some stiff who will never improve. Projecting how players produce is part of the game. You really don't think Seguin will improve beyond 67 points in his career? Please, thats ridiculous. Nothing thus far has suggested he wont improve haha.

Expectations and projections are part of the game.
And you're acting like Kessel has maxed out even though he was able to become a ppg player without even a decent play making centre feeding him the puck. That is ridiculous. Bozak only had just over half of the total pts Kessel had. If you're gonna talk about projections, you should think about that.

I know Seguin will get better, but Kessel still has another level he can reach too. 25 years old doesn't make him a veteran in this league. I am not saying Seguin won't get more than 67 pts. He could get more, he could get less and the same with Kessel. I'm saying without taking into account future uncertainties and probabilities Kessel was the better player than Seguin last year.


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11-27-2012, 02:17 PM
  #217
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If you don't count the return CBJ got for Carter afterwards, the Carter trade is worse.
Exactly.

The decent return for Carter makes the trade more palatable. If the Jackets return centered on say, Jonathan Bernier, the Carter trade is worse. As it is, Jack Johnson looks like something the Jackets have always needed far more than Jeff Carter.

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11-27-2012, 03:06 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
And you're acting like Kessel has maxed out even though he was able to become a ppg player without even a decent play making centre feeding him the puck. That is ridiculous. Bozak only had just over half of the total pts Kessel had. If you're gonna talk about projections, you should think about that.

I know Seguin will get better, but Kessel still has another level he can reach too. 25 years old doesn't make him a veteran in this league. I am not saying Seguin won't get more than 67 pts. He could get more, he could get less and the same with Kessel. I'm saying without taking into account future uncertainties and probabilities Kessel was the better player than Seguin last year.
So all you're really saying is Kessel was better last year, and none of us know anything about the future.

Also, are you suggesting that Kessel would get better with a viable #1 center? Isn't that against your "probability and expectation" mantra? Kessel hasnt proven anything with anyone but Bozak, lets not make any rash projections, despite how much of a layup they are.

Also, if Kessel has "more room to grow" then I better not hear any "Seguin has plateaued" comments from leaf posters until hes at least hes 26-27.

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11-27-2012, 04:31 PM
  #219
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For anyone curious as to what Seguin is up to right now, he's currently dominating the Swiss-A league and is probably the best NHL player playing right now over there ( ahead of guys like Rick Nash, Joe Thornton, etc etc ). 17 games, 16 goals, 12 assists, 28 points.
Sportsnet had an update on Seguin today:


It is awfully hard to miss Tyler Seguin these days.

Not only is the locked-out NHL forward tearing up the Swiss hockey league, he's doing it in style. Seguin stands out among his EHC Biel teammates on the ice because of the bright yellow helmet he wears -- an honour bestowed on the top-scoring player for each team in Switzerland.

The 20-year-old has been an offensive force with 20 goals in 20 games, making him the most productive NHLer plying his trade in a league that includes Jason Spezza, Joe Thornton, Rick Nash, John Tavares and Logan Couture, among others.

In fact, Seguin has even managed to exceed his own expectations so far.

"I had no idea what to expect when I came to Switzerland," he told the Tages-Anzeiger newspaper recently. "The league is very competitive -- the speed and the talent level of the players has surprised me. It took me some time and effort to get used to it.

"Scoring goals is never easy; I didn't do very well at the beginning. Now I just hope to continue playing well like I have been lately."


Full Story: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l...cess_overseas/

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11-27-2012, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
So all you're really saying is Kessel was better last year, and none of us know anything about the future.

Also, are you suggesting that Kessel would get better with a viable #1 center? Isn't that against your "probability and expectation" mantra? Kessel hasnt proven anything with anyone but Bozak, lets not make any rash projections, despite how much of a layup they are.

Also, if Kessel has "more room to grow" then I better not hear any "Seguin has plateaued" comments from leaf posters until hes at least hes 26-27.
Thank you, you finally got it. You are right. (well...they were switching up centres with connolly, steckel etc but for the most part it was Bozak) And yes it does go against my probability mantra, thats why I'm not certain about it. In no way am I stating this as fact. I'm just saying the potential is there just like Seguin's potential is there. That doesn't mean Kessel is any better than what I have seen, that just means he has that potential.

I mean it's fun to make projections and all that, and in no way am I saying Seguin won't be a superstar. He could end up being one of the top scorers in the league for years to come. But taking it as fact and saying that he is already better than one of the top scorers in the league based on the potential he shows doesn't make sense.

No way do I think Seguin has plateaued (let me just say that on record). I think that at this moment Seguin hasn't proved that he is a better player than Kessel.

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11-27-2012, 04:55 PM
  #221
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Rielly and Gardiner have no bearing on the Kessel trade. Gardiner shows Burke trading skills though.

Had the Kessel trade not happened they would have done worse or equal in the 2011-2012 season with a sophmore Seguin. Seguin got less points albeit in a lesser role in Boston. They would have been able to draft a higher pick (Murray, Galyenchuk, Yakupov)

The Kessel trade improved them last season and this season, but at what future cost

So Rielly and Gardiner do not replace Seguin and Hamilton.

Kessel trade leaves them with:
Kessel, Rielly, Gardiner

No Kessel trade leaves them with
Seguin, Hamilton, Gardiner, Galyenchuk/Yakupov/ Reilly/Murray, 2nd pick from 2011
I'd argue Seguin/Hamilton is the best possible package you could get. I doubt if the Leafs don't get Kessel they end up with a better package.

James Reimer was the reason Boston didn't draft Hopkins first overall or at worst 2nd or 3rd. But in the end, they got Hamilton.

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11-27-2012, 05:01 PM
  #222
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Wait really!?

The polls are saying Kessel deal is worse than the one the CBJ one?



Wow. I mean they gave up Voracek and Practically Couturier for Carter who did NOTHING for them but okay!

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11-27-2012, 05:02 PM
  #223
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oops wrong thread.

anyways its easily the kessel trade. Burke's ego got the best of him.

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11-27-2012, 05:05 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Carl Carmoni View Post
oops wrong thread.

anyways its easily the kessel trade. Burke's ego got the best of him.
Why do you think Burke's ego had anything to do with him? He made a trade.

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11-27-2012, 05:06 PM
  #225
RogerRoeper*
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Wait really!?

The polls are saying Kessel deal is worse than the one the CBJ one?



Wow. I mean they gave up Voracek and Practically Couturier for Carter who did NOTHING for them but okay!
The flaw with most is they only look at who the Leafs gave up and not the huge difference in what they got compared to what Columbus got in return.

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