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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

If any Players Union should complain...

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Old
02-11-2005, 10:52 AM
  #1
Cropduster
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If any Players Union should complain...

...it should be the NFL union. Heard this on the Sporting News last night. Each NFL team is GUARANTEED $120 million in TV revenues alone. If I am not mistaken the NFL has a $80 cap. This is $40 million left over to the owners before you even get into team promotional sales, parking, food and beer, ticket sales, etc etc etc.

I realize this is at a level the NHL can't even touch, but % wise its dramatically different

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02-11-2005, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cropduster
...it should be the NFL union. Heard this on the Sporting News last night. Each NFL team is GUARANTEED $120 million in TV revenues alone. If I am not mistaken the NFL has a $80 cap. This is $40 million left over to the owners before you even get into team promotional sales, parking, food and beer, ticket sales, etc etc etc.

I realize this is at a level the NHL can't even touch, but % wise its dramatically different
That has to pay for whatever lease they have, etc. It doesn't go straight to the owners' pockets.

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02-11-2005, 11:11 AM
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Try running a business. If you want to give your employees all your revenue, that's your perogative but you won't be in business very long.

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Old
02-11-2005, 11:26 AM
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Sometimes you just have to be grateful for what you get...

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Old
02-11-2005, 11:36 AM
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Cropduster
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...not that the NFLers should complain, I mean. Just comparing the two

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02-11-2005, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cropduster
...not that the NFLers should complain, I mean. Just comparing the two
Whenever their CBA is up, I'm sure the cap will be increased to reflect increases in revenue.

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02-11-2005, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All-Star
Whenever their CBA is up, I'm sure the cap will be increased to reflect increases in revenue.
maybe somewhat, but my point being that their union isnt nearly as strong as the NHL. Neither is the NBA's

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02-11-2005, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cropduster
maybe somewhat, but my point being that their union isnt nearly as strong as the NHL. Neither is the NBA's

or they realize that if they grow the game in every market it will increase their %

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Old
02-11-2005, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cropduster
...it should be the NFL union. Heard this on the Sporting News last night. Each NFL team is GUARANTEED $120 million in TV revenues alone. If I am not mistaken the NFL has a $80 cap. This is $40 million left over to the owners before you even get into team promotional sales, parking, food and beer, ticket sales, etc etc etc.

I realize this is at a level the NHL can't even touch, but % wise its dramatically different
I think guaranteed contracts should be the first point of order for the NFL players association.

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Old
02-11-2005, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cropduster
...it should be the NFL union. Heard this on the Sporting News last night. Each NFL team is GUARANTEED $120 million in TV revenues alone. If I am not mistaken the NFL has a $80 cap. This is $40 million left over to the owners before you even get into team promotional sales, parking, food and beer, ticket sales, etc etc etc.

I realize this is at a level the NHL can't even touch, but % wise its dramatically different
That's why owners allowed the last CBA to be structured the way it was. They were convinced that Bettman was going to get them a TV deal that would shift the burden of player salaries from ownership to media as in those other leagues. Then came the glow pucks and the rules changes to make the league more appealing to "casual fans," which is TV speak for channel surfers. Fighting was outlawed as was ruff tuff play, changes to enhance scoring actually squelched it. The whole plan backfired. Any idiot could have seen that it would. We are now living through the painfull correction resulting from these ill-conceived innovations. In the meantime the players enjoyed an enormous windfall. They should be laughing all the way to the bank instead of crying foul. Like entitlement programs of all kinds, it's always more difficult to take something away than it is to give a thing. For those of you who think a permanent lockout will "destroy hockey," get real. In three years the league could be better than ever.
-HckyFght!

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Old
02-11-2005, 12:08 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cropduster
...it should be the NFL union. Heard this on the Sporting News last night. Each NFL team is GUARANTEED $120 million in TV revenues alone. If I am not mistaken the NFL has a $80 cap. This is $40 million left over to the owners before you even get into team promotional sales, parking, food and beer, ticket sales, etc etc etc.

I realize this is at a level the NHL can't even touch, but % wise its dramatically different
That's incorrect. The cap is about $77M, and the revenues from TV are about $75M.

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Old
02-11-2005, 12:09 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All-Star
Whenever their CBA is up, I'm sure the cap will be increased to reflect increases in revenue.
The cap is increased yearly.

The CBA expires after the 2007 season. The NFL and NFLPA have already begun preliminary discussions, if anything the NHL and NHLPA should have taken a page from them.

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02-11-2005, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
That's incorrect. The cap is about $77M, and the revenues from TV are about $75M.
....last year

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Old
02-11-2005, 06:16 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
The cap is increased yearly.

The CBA expires after the 2007 season. The NFL and NFLPA have already begun preliminary discussions, if anything the NHL and NHLPA should have taken a page from them.
The reason for the early discussion is that the cap expires the year before the CBA and as Gene Upshaw has said unless the the union gets the changes it is seeking then the cap is gone and it will not be coming back. In effect the NFLPA has a veto on the cap. That is not surprising since the cap was a union initiative in the first place in the NFL. Ed Garvey, the Executive Director of the NFLPA first began pitching it to the owners in 1982 as a means of the players getting a bigger share of the revenue pie. The NFL owners were horrified by the idea.

It is kind of ironic that cap is now looked upon as an owners' tool for controlling costs.

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Old
02-11-2005, 06:18 PM
  #15
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also i think the nfl is up to around 56 players on their roster incl the developmental squad

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Old
02-11-2005, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
That's incorrect. The cap is about $77M, and the revenues from TV are about $75M.
The NFL had a $80,582,000 million salary cap for 2004.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/clayt...n/1510617.html

The NFLPA went through the owners books with a fine tooth comb to locate undeclared shared revenues last off-season and bumped up the salary cap by several million dollars per team. The $77 million was the unadjusted estimated number for 2004 prior to the NFLPA audit. NFLPA found a about two hundred million dollars in undeclared revenues which when split up between all the teams and multiplied by the revenue share percentage gave the increased cap room.

Sure would be fun to see the NHL owners open the books.

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02-11-2005, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
The $77 million was the unadjusted estimated number for 2004 prior to the NFLPA audit. NFLPA found a about two hundred million dollars in undeclared revenues which when split up between all the teams and multiplied by the revenue share percentage gave the increased cap room.

Sure would be fun to see the NHL owners open the books.
this shows me that even at a much higher scale and a lot more money... this can work as long as the NHLPA can audit the leagues revenue then a cap will work...

they would need to have revenue sharing amongst the teams and this would check each team to make sure all revenues are accurate... so they are not ripping off their partners in the revenue sharing. if the NFL can do it.. then surely the NHL can as it is on a much smaller scale... no?

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02-11-2005, 06:35 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
NFLPA found a about two hundred million dollars in undeclared revenues which when split up between all the teams and multiplied by the revenue share percentage gave the increased cap room.
Guess that pretty much shoots down the lie that linkage in the NHL is simply not possible, because it's just so easy to hide money.

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Old
02-11-2005, 06:36 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota
this shows me that even at a much higher scale and a lot more money... this can work as long as the NHLPA can audit the leagues revenue then a cap will work...

they would need to have revenue sharing amongst the teams and this would check each team to make sure all revenues are accurate... so they are not ripping off their partners in the revenue sharing. if the NFL can do it.. then surely the NHL can as it is on a much smaller scale... no?
Problem is the NHL will not significantly share revenues and they refuse to open the books for the teams and related corporate entities as do the other sports.

The NFL shares at about 70%, baseball and basketball at about 35% and the NHL at about 9%. One calculation I saw said the NHL's proposed limited sharing of some playoff revenues would bring the revenue sharing up to 13%. That is not going to get it done.

The NHLPA has indicated that they would talk salary cap if the NHL agreed to share at a NFL level.

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02-11-2005, 06:42 PM
  #20
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Originally Posted by PecaFan
Guess that pretty much shoots down the lie that linkage in the NHL is simply not possible, because it's just so easy to hide money.
Not so.

It is much harder to hide money in the NFL because the teams are not owned by interlocking corporate structures where money can be shuffled around.

The NBA is closer in ownership structure to the NHL (cross ownership of eight team I believe) and those books took the NBAPA auditors over 2 years to unravel before they could even begin to negotiate the definition of Basket Related Income. One of the complaints from Billy Hunter, NBAPA Exsecutive Director is that the NBA owners are concealing revenues and moving money around. That is the big issue for the NBAPA in the upcoming negotiations. They want a re-definition of revenues with stricter controls and heavy penalties for breaches.

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Old
02-11-2005, 06:46 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
Problem is the NHL will not significantly share revenues and they refuse to open the books for the teams and related corporate entities as do the other sports.

The NFL shares at about 70%, baseball and basketball at about 35% and the NHL at about 9%. One calculation I saw said the NHL's proposed limited sharing of some playoff revenues would bring the revenue sharing up to 13%. That is not going to get it done.

The NHLPA has indicated that they would talk salary cap if the NHL agreed to share at a NFL level.
so if the NHL shared revenues more the NHLPA would be prepared to talk cap... are these not the real issues that should be talked about then? I mean they will take a cap according to what your saying if the NHL shares revenues... why does the PA not come out and say this more bluntly? I would be on a soap box talking about this... somehow forcing the owners to make the next move by talking about revenue sharing... if Saskin stood there and told the media that the only way they would talk cap would be if the owners talked about NFL style revenue sharing then this would clearly show the public that the NHLPA is trying to fix the NHL problem and not the other way around...

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Old
02-11-2005, 06:53 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota
so if the NHL shared revenues more the NHLPA would be prepared to talk cap... are these not the real issues that should be talked about then? I mean they will take a cap according to what your saying if the NHL shares revenues... why does the PA not come out and say this more bluntly? I would be on a soap box talking about this... somehow forcing the owners to make the next move by talking about revenue sharing... if Saskin stood there and told the media that the only way they would talk cap would be if the owners talked about NFL style revenue sharing then this would clearly show the public that the NHLPA is trying to fix the NHL problem and not the other way around...
The NHL will not talk significant revenue sharing. The NHLPA has tried repeatedly as late as yesterday again according to Ted Saskin. He said Bettman was not interested and that he understood why.

If you noted when the NHL purportedly agreed to "try out" the NHLPA's December 9, 2004 they did not include the revenue sharing provisions in the NHLPA proposal.

The reason is simple - revenue sharing pits owner against owner and Bettman does not have the juice for that particular fight.

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Old
02-11-2005, 09:51 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
The NBA is closer in ownership structure to the NHL (cross ownership of eight team I believe) and those books took the NBAPA auditors over 2 years to unravel before they could even begin to negotiate the definition of Basket Related Income. One of the complaints from Billy Hunter, NBAPA Exsecutive Director is that the NBA owners are concealing revenues and moving money around.
So, both sides in a nearly exact ownership structure still came to an agreeable definition, and the players were able to detect monkey business by the owners.

Thanks. You've just proven my argument yet again.

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Old
02-11-2005, 10:08 PM
  #24
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The NFL union is actually pretty strong. They realize by helping to grow the game, they can make more money. The only thing they do not have is gaurenteed contracts, which you shouldn't if you suck.

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Old
02-11-2005, 10:40 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by PecaFan
So, both sides in a nearly exact ownership structure still came to an agreeable definition, and the players were able to detect monkey business by the owners.

Thanks. You've just proven my argument yet again.
Only if you failed to comprehend what I wrote.

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