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Why would the PA bring forth a new stricter offer ...

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Old
02-11-2005, 01:48 PM
  #1
Mess
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Why would the PA bring forth a new stricter offer ...

only to have the NHL just add them to their own offer. Because, that's what's happened so far.

That is so true on lots of accounts ..

The NHLPA proposes a 24% rollback instead of a Cap solution and the NHL says "THANKS Great Idea" and adds in to their Proposal and returns with a counter proposal that includes how about 35% for the Star players more CAPs in the solution ..

The NHLPA proposes that entry level salaries be reduced from 1.25 mil to 850 K for rookies on a 3 year deal with reduced bonus structures ...The NHL say "THANKS Great Idea" and adds in to their Proposal and returns with a counter proposal that says how about 4 years mandatory instead of 3 and NO Bonuses at all ..

The NHLPA proposes 2 way arbitration so that the Owners and Players are accountable for on Ice performance .. The NHL say "THANKS Great Idea" and add the option to bump a player that just came off a career year so that he will not be rewarded for his performance financially, hoping of course that he will not repeat & the deal killer if at any time we on a whim decide to lower UFA to 28 then ALL PLAYER ARBITRATION RIGHTS are removed as is the whole process of arbitration.. Meaning that a player is drafted at 18 and at the complete mercy of the NHL team until he turns 28, with no course of action at all ..

The NHLPA proposes a Revenue sharing plan that based on the figures given would make all teams profitable .. but ..."THANKS Great Idea" ,we will look after that ourselves ..We have not yet felt the need to come up with a meaningful Revenue Sharing plan among the Owners to form a partnership ..but how about we link you guys at 55% of Revenue for Life and form a partnership with the NHLPA .. However we are not willing to open the books nor do we want your input in how the business is run .. Now that we came up with this idea .. lets make it mandatory and any future CBA discussions ..

The NHLPA proposes a luxury tax system that starting at 42 million will have fines and penalties that will curb Big Market spending and provide income to the smaller markets as revenue .. The NHL returns "THANKS Great Idea" .. but lets set the ceiling at $42 million prohibiting even $1 dollar to exceed that from your plan ..

The NHLPA proposes a 100% qualifying offer requirement for contracts below a certain amount and 0% above for the richer players as RFA ..to but an drag on automatic increases of the past at 110% below $5 million.. The NHL returns "THANKS Great Idea" .. How about we make that number 75% of what you made the current year and what the heck lets not play favourites same 25% reduction across the board for every player should we want to ..

etc ..

Result : THE NHLPA DECLINES YOUR MORE THEN GENEROUS OFFER

NHL ACTION : OKAY

NHL COUNTER PROPOSAL : How about we start with your proposal for the First few hours or until any of these TRIGGERS are fired most of which will go off immediately (which ever comes first), at which time we switch to our NHL PROPOSAL that you have already rejected twice ..

Result : THE NHLPA DECLINES YOUR MORE THEN GENEROUS OFFER

NHL ACTION: OKAY

NHL : NHLPA you come up with more suggestions or should I say compromises to find middle ground that we can incorporate into our proposal back to you again after putting our own flavour to it .. oh and by the way ..don't forget our next proposal will guarantee to include LINKAGE and a HARD CAP or its no deal back to you guys..


Last edited by Mess: 02-11-2005 at 09:20 PM.
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Old
02-11-2005, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by The Messenger

The NHLPA proposes a luxury tax system that starting at 42 million will have fines and penalties that will curb Big Market spending and provide income to the smaller markets as revenue.
BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

You are living in a fantasy world of your own. The only concept the owners "stole" was the 24% rollback and it was more an "F You" to the union for even proposing such a transparent idea. Everything else you said is factually incorrect.

 
Old
02-11-2005, 02:01 PM
  #3
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Neither side has even come close to proposing a system that would work and be fair.

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02-11-2005, 02:10 PM
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Without debating the specifics of your post. The NHLPA's offer is the equivalent of putting a band aid on a sucking chest wound. The PA surely can't be surprised with the league's approach to these CBA negotiations. Bettman along with every owner who has acquired a franchise in the past 5 years has droned on about cost certainty to anyone who will listen.

For the past 10 years the PA, the players and their agents have been gorging themselves at the money trough the owners so foolishly provided. That feast is now officially over, the owners are resolved to put a system in place that guarantees them cost certainty. All the braying about blame, poor negotiations and fairness are all window dressing at this point.


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02-11-2005, 02:14 PM
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Neither side has move off their starting stance, it is still PA = No Cap and NHL = Cap.

Neither side has negotiated in good faith.

Neither side has presented a solid, workable solution to addressing the serious issues that plague the league.

Neither side has listened to the other.

Neither side has been honest during the process.

Each side is so interested in “winning” that they are willing to destroy the league.

Each side is so entrenched in their own rhetoric that they wouldn’t know the truth if it hit them upside the head.

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02-11-2005, 02:23 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
Without debating the specifics of your post. The NHLPA's offer is the equivalent of putting a band aid on a sucking chest wound. The PA surely can't be surprised with the league's approach to these CBA negotiations. Bettman along with every owner who has acquired a franchise in the past 5 years has droned on about cost certainty to anyone who will listen.

For the past 10 years the PA, the players and their agents have been gorging themselves at the money trough the owners so foolishly provided. That feast is now officially over, the owners are resolved to put a system in place that guarantees them cost certainty. All the braying about blame, poor negotiations and fairness are all window dressing at this point.
by Owners provided I am sure you meant from loyal fans spending of course .. The part that they didn't put in their own pockets and forwarded on to the players.

Strangely its not the Fans that provided the money but the owners that got to keep less the feel the most offended ..

because that is what this fight is all about right How to split up the 2.1 billion of Fans money ..

and good for the owners to play hard ball .. they are fighting for the fans, whom without neither side will get 1 cent .. The owners are fighting these overpaid Players tooth and nail for us fans so that they can inturn when salaries come down, lower ticket prices across the board and decrease parking and the cost of a team jersey .. all so the loyal fan is not gouged on all this gorging ..

If they have my best interest as a fan in mind ..well how can I complain then .. ??


Last edited by Mess: 02-11-2005 at 02:35 PM.
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02-11-2005, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by The Messenger
by Owners provided I am sure you meant from loyal fans spending of course .. The part that they didn't put in their own pockets and forwarded on to the players.
Sorry man, most owners haven't put any hockey money in their pockets for far too long. They've been bled dry by this union and have had enough.

 
Old
02-11-2005, 02:40 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyCritter
Neither side has move off their starting stance, it is still PA = No Cap and NHL = Cap.

Neither side has negotiated in good faith.

Neither side has presented a solid, workable solution to addressing the serious issues that plague the league.

Neither side has listened to the other.

Neither side has been honest during the process.

Each side is so interested in “winning” that they are willing to destroy the league.

Each side is so entrenched in their own rhetoric that they wouldn’t know the truth if it hit them upside the head.
Great post, pretty much sums up the situation to me. How anybody can give either side their support is beyond me. When Gary and Bob are finally done with the pissing contest they will be lucky if there is anything left to save.

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02-11-2005, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
by Owners provided I am sure you meant from loyal fans spending of course .. The part that they didn't put in their own pockets and forwarded on to the players.
First part, semantics - If you prefer I will call the owners spending - "owner/league controlled fan generated revenue reallocation". Second part, Are you actually saying that the owners are skimming, that the losses are a fallacy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Strangely its not the Fans that provided the money but the owners that got to keep less the feel the most offended ..
It's not so much that they got to keep less, it's that many of them were actually digging into their own pockets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
[because that is what this fight is all about right How to split up the 2.1 billion of Fans money ..
An ever shrinking pool,I might point out. At least the PA is willing to pay for it's principles (kudos to them).

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
and good for the owners to play hard ball .. they are fighting for the fans, whom without neither side will get 1 cent .. The owners are fighting these overpaid Players tooth and nail for us fans so that they can inturn when salaries come down, lower ticket prices across the board and decrease parking and the cost of a team jersey .. all so the loyal fan is not gouged on all this gorging ..

If they have my best interest as a fan in mind ..well how can I complain then .. ??
Who said anything about the owners defending the interests of the fans??? The owners are looking out for their own best interests (as are the players) - I have no problems with either group in that regard. I simply believe the current/past system is unsustainable and that going forward the owners should have a reasonable expectation of turning a profit (I'm crazy that way)

BTW: Is it necessary to go completely over the top in your responses

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02-11-2005, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Why would they bring forth a new strict offer?
So they can get back to work obviously.

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02-11-2005, 03:25 PM
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woahh there now

Quote:
Originally Posted by shekki
So they can get back to work obviously.
Common sense dosnt enter into this little bruhaha.

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02-11-2005, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexmorrison
Neither side has even come close to proposing a system that would work and be fair.
I've been with the owners for the entire lockout, but that last "proposal" was absolutely sickening. To claim an attempt at compromise when you have cap triggers that are two steps away from "if the water in the rink is fronzen after two years, we get a hard cap" is not negotiating in good faith.

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02-11-2005, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJD Jester
I've been with the owners for the entire lockout, but that last "proposal" was absolutely sickening. To claim an attempt at compromise when you have cap triggers that are two steps away from "if the water in the rink is fronzen after two years, we get a hard cap" is not negotiating in good faith.
but don't you think the PA should've countered with different triggers?

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02-11-2005, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by neelynugs
but don't you think the PA should've countered with different triggers?
The Pa should counter with a proposal that actually makes sence of the NHLs troubles as a league finacially. They haven't yet; which is the whole problem with this lockout.

 
Old
02-11-2005, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neelynugs
but don't you think the PA should've countered with different triggers?
The NHL claimed in its post-meeting press appearances that the triggers were negotiable; the PA claimed that the NHL never made that clear in the meeting.

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02-11-2005, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
by Owners provided I am sure you meant from loyal fans spending of course ..
Blah, blah, blah. Its not the fans money. They gave it to the owners. Its the owners money.

Once you hand over your money its not yours anymore.

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02-11-2005, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJD Jester
The NHL claimed in its post-meeting press appearances that the triggers were negotiable; the PA claimed that the NHL never made that clear in the meeting.
Do it anyways. If you seriously think that each side takes what the other side says as gospel truth, your delusional. If you really think that the NHLPA truly believed that the owners last idea was their "final offer", then you are beyond hope.

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02-11-2005, 06:11 PM
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If the NHLPA was willing to give back 24%, then they are in the 55% range the league wants. They even "guaranteed" (somehow) that this will work, however they seem to have stubbed thier toe somewhat because obviously this proves the offer to be hollow. They seem to have expected the NHL to fall for this ploy. Goodenow wants a system that can be manipulated and that's exactly what would happen without a cap. We all know it. Dont blame Bettman for recognizing what any person with an IQ of +75 can see.

The NHL seems to be making a harder and harder deal evey day this drags on. I couldn't be happier that the league has finally put thier hand down. I'm not known as a stats guy, but I did notice a few things;

1) Roenick 7.5 mil. - 19g, 67g in 3 years as a flyer, 9g in P/O's in 7 years - remember him hugging Snider saying " you wont be dissapointed"

2) Modano 9 mil. - 14g, -21rate, 1 P/Og - has a hungry dog

3) Turgeon 7.5 mil. - 15g, 1 P/Og

4) Weight - 8.5 mil. - 14g, 2 P/Og

5) Yashin - 8.4 mil. - 15g, 11 Career P/Og

6) The list of lazy inept players goes on and on. Look at Lindros, Bure, Fedorov, Mogilny - who only plays during signing year. The entire TML team.

The real problem in the league is the players. They want everything, and everyone especially fans should kiss thier arse, because they get $8 million for a measly 15-20 goals. Then they look into a camera and justify thier position. If it was me I'd wear a stocking over my head to save my family the shame. They should be thankful they got away with things this long.

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02-11-2005, 07:00 PM
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Is there a reason why Messenger's rant isn't worthy of closure?

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02-11-2005, 08:58 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iagreewithidiots
Blah, blah, blah. Its not the fans money. They gave it to the owners. Its the owners money.

Once you hand over your money its not yours anymore.
Do you give your hard earn money for the purpose of watching Hockey and your Fav players or once you give your money to the owner to you expect to stand at centre ice and tell jokes ...

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02-11-2005, 09:00 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
Is there a reason why Messenger's rant isn't worthy of closure?
It isn't a rant .. It is exactly how this bargaining has unfolded to date .. The NHL has give the NHLPA little to work with to date ..

They need to soften their stance on their position or we are headed for an Impasse .IMO

If you look at the process objectively that is what has happened to date .. To this point the only thing from the lockout to this date in any proposal from the NHL is that they are offering UFA down from 31 to 30 ..

Every other item from the OLD CBA to even changing the NHLPA proposal has been in favour of the NHL .. I have displayed numerous areas that the NHLPA has compromised on, and just don't see middle ground ..

Please feel free to correct me on any advantange I have missed ..


Last edited by Mess: 02-11-2005 at 09:07 PM.
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02-11-2005, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
It isn't a rant ..

It is exactly how this bargaining has unfolded to date .. :lol :lol :lol

The NHL has give the NHLPA little to work with to date ..
It is a completely biased rant and worthy of a suitable place in the appropriate thread.

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02-11-2005, 09:10 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
It is a completely biased rant and worthy of a suitable place in the appropriate thread.
Have you followed the process and made yourself familar with the CBA and the proposals ??

This may all in fact be posturing or there may be a hidden agenda to the current process. However we are on the eve of a season cancellation with neither side budging at this stage ..

That is not a rant but a fact finding mission ..


Last edited by Mess: 02-11-2005 at 09:36 PM.
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02-11-2005, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil
Do it anyways. If you seriously think that each side takes what the other side says as gospel truth, your delusional. If you really think that the NHLPA truly believed that the owners last idea was their "final offer", then you are beyond hope.
Can you tell me why the NHLPA should think the NHL would be willing to budge on the triggers if it doesn't indicate that it would?

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02-11-2005, 09:44 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJD Jester
Can you tell me why the NHLPA should think the NHL would be willing to budge on the triggers if it doesn't indicate that it would?
Have you ever negotiated for something, i.e. a house, car, job? If so, you know very well you don't submit an offer and say "This is it, but I'm willing to change it." Besides the fact you'd be undercutting yourself, that sort of thing is assumed. That's what makes it a negotiation.
Bob and Ted knew very well that the triggers were up for negotiation and they simply chose not to negotiate them. That's their right, but I'd appreciate it if they wouldn't lie to me and, as a pair of very experienced negotiaters, tell me they didn't think it was possible.

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