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Who do you blame for the *potential* lock out now?

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Old
02-12-2005, 04:18 AM
  #1
Kingz4life
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Who do you blame for the *potential* lock out now?

I blame the Owners. Looking at the Owners offers, name 1 thing that they have offered that would be favorable to the Union? The players have atleast takin some hits, for example, 24% rollback and luxary tax. Owners expected the NHLPA to take all the hits and that's why there is going to be a lock out. Bettman has to go!

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02-12-2005, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingz4life
I blame the Owners. Looking at the Owners offers, name 1 thing that they have offered that would be favorable to the Union? The players have atleast takin some hits, for example, 24% rollback and luxary tax. Owners expected the NHLPA to take all the hits and that's why there is going to be a lock out. Bettman has to go!
In 94, the owners got crushed in that deal. This time they're making sure things are different. No deal unless cost certainty is included. 24% rollback and luxury tax are nice, but won't solve the problem with the system.

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02-12-2005, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by LadyByngJeanRatelle
In 94, the owners got crushed in that deal. This time they're making sure things are different. No deal unless cost certainty is included. 24% rollback and luxury tax are nice, but won't solve the problem with the system.
Exactly.
The inflationary pressures aren't gone. a 24% rollback does nothing if the salaries rise right back up and then surpass the 24% savings. Especially when salaries are going up an average of 31% a season.

Look at how salaries have risen since 92-93

This is the average per season
AVERAGE 10.0 19.8 29.8 31.6 33.3 38.0 42.4 44.0
Also notice the % is rising each year.

 
Old
02-12-2005, 10:18 AM
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I blame the Owners.
hands down you have my vote..

...just my two cents

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02-12-2005, 10:47 AM
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well, i blame both parties and i think its up tot hem to come to a compromise. players were pretty stupid to take that proposal they made and act like it was worth more then a few pennies. they knew and everyone else knew in the world that was basically the same as the 94 deal, ridiculous. then the owners were again to blame for taking that deal and then basically adding on everfything they wnated without conceding a thing. the idea of a $30-40 mil salary cap is ludicrious. i would much rathre have no cap so teams can keep their players. or at least a soft cap so that there is room to move.

ridiculous on both sides

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02-12-2005, 12:50 PM
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I blame the players for 90% of it. Their sport is basically off the radar of 85% of sports fans in the US. They have squat for a TV contract because only a few of us watch ( hence the glowing puck to attract more viewers). The players have to realize that beach volleyball gets better numbers on tv than hockey. TV ratings for playoff games only really get interest in certain markets, and that interest is very small (last year more people watched poker than the semifinals). The owners know that they can't trust themselves with their own wallet, so a cap protects them from themselves. A hockey player making 10 mil a year is retarded, even 7 mil is way too much. The best football players barely make 10 and most make a lot less than 7. Who do more people watch? A sunday afternoon football game gets more tv viewers and fans than a stanley cup finals! Did the owners pay those saleries? absolutely and that's why they need a hard cap to protect all of the small market teams from the teams that have the deep pockets to spend. Hockey teams rely more on the draw to the game for revenue than in any other sport. Do you want to pay $60-100 for a game? Imagine what a family would pay? Screw the players, come back next season with replacements that want to play and I'll be there. Unions suck!

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02-12-2005, 01:04 PM
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I'm pissed with both for refusing to play with offers. The league could have asked for a luxury tax of .50 cents/dollar at $40 million and then have it go up to dollar/dollar after $45 million. There was room to negotiate with the luxury tax. If the players say that's a cap it's because OBVIOUSLY NOBODY WANTS TO PAY YOUR GREEDY ASS MORE THAN YOU DESERVE! Honestly, they earn more than they should already.

As for the players, they should say "We know you want a cap, but how about a salary range of 35-45 million dollars without linkage because we know that revenues are going to take a monstrous hit because of the lockout. We'll negotiate for linkage in the next deal if things work out splendidly." Then, if Bettman's right and all those markets really are good markets, the owners could theorhetically make more money because if they make a profit where $45 million is only 40% of league revenues they've come off better than they were. The linkage thing only states that they believe they'll be getting worse off than they are now. That's a real positive negotiating partner.

Finally, how about asking the players to make up 70% of their negotiated pay in performance bonuses (tied to things per game avg. in case of injury). Then you pay stars for playing like stars and scrubs for playing like scrubs. Inflationary salaries are bad. The old deal screwed the owners, yes, but both sides have to come together and work on this.

My .02 for now,

T2M

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02-12-2005, 01:31 PM
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They're both at fault for it going this long.

The owners can't trust each other not to ruin the game financially, in the name of competition.

The players don't seem to get that they're not too popular, in terms of TV ratings.

I'm only on the owners side in this because it's pro sports. Even with a cap, there are still millions to be made. If it were a normal job, I'd be with the union.

Let them have their little fight. If the league dies in the process, then not much you can do as a fan, except not believe they could actually kill the league. It's the only reason I think they'll get something done. They've lost so much already, and will have to do a lot to get plenty of people back. If there's no season, however short, they'll lose everything.

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02-12-2005, 09:09 PM
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Like previously stated by the media, I really do think Bettman is trying to throw the entire year and break the union. Like a dictator, no discussion, no concession, his way or no way. I also think he's doing this for his own personal gain, not for the love of the sport, but just to say he won with nothing givin back to build up his name and them leave and go back to basketball.

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02-12-2005, 10:13 PM
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Ive posted this before.. But Im still gonna contribute it here.

I like to consider myself a neutral supporter. In some instances I agree with the PA, and in some instances I agree with the Owners. But when the players in the NHL signed in the NHL, they abide to play under the rules. Play under the leagues rules. Its not the players game. They can't take the game over.

If you do not like the conditions you are playing under then just leave. By signing into the NHL you should have thought about the working conditions. Now, they ***** and moan at the owners for certain things they don't like about the game. Well, news flash.. Its not your job to decide what goes on in the NHL. All you do is play in the league, not make business decisions. If the NHL wants to implement a hard cap, then so be it. Thats the way it should be.

The players get paid to play hockey. Thats what they lived their entire lives for. For them to try and decide how the league should be run is ridiculous. Now, no I don't agree that a Hard Cap is the only way, as a matter of fact I think that the owners should back off that stance. Its not a perfect world, there are going to be flaws in every CBA proposed. The players have to understand that.

Now I know this argument is going to pop up. Ok, if your boss makes a change that you don't like. And this CHANGE will BETTER THE ENVIORNMENT THAT YOU WORK IN, You don't STOP working. You keep working even if you don't like the change. Eventually its gonna be known that the change he made is not very popular around the office, (construction field, w/e) and he will consider a change. Nobody likes to have unhappy employees.

The players just have to live with the fact that there is going to be a hard cap. I know that it may not seem right, but they have to deal with it. Probably if there is still an outcry that they hate it, it will get changed. But the fact of the matter is they are still getting paid to play hockey (which is supposed to be the game they love) so why can't they put money aside? Its not like they aren't going to get paid.

Its a shame to see what proffesional atheletes have come to. The greed is just unbelievable. Its not just hockey look at the Lakers last year. Look at G.P. now, look at Kobe. Ego's have taken over the game and its not a good thing to see.

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02-12-2005, 10:20 PM
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I blame the players, or at least their leader.

Simple math here:

Owners proposals = 4
Players prpopsals = 1

Who's playing hardball at the 11th hour & 59th minute til midight?

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02-13-2005, 02:38 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R0CKET
I blame the players, or at least their leader.

Simple math here:

Owners proposals = 4
Players prpopsals = 1

Who's playing hardball at the 11th hour & 59th minute til midight?
Owners Proposals= 4 worthless proposals.
Player Proposal=1 proposal and it wasn;t worthless.

What have the owners offered that would favor the Union??? NOTHING. Don't get me wrong its not only the owners fault but I blame them much more. The fact is the Union isn't going to accept a 42 million dollar payroll. Players have given back, Owners havent done *****!

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02-13-2005, 03:01 AM
  #13
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Both of 'em.

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02-13-2005, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by TiesRLikeWins4Us
Ive posted this before.. But Im still gonna contribute it here.

I like to consider myself a neutral supporter. In some instances I agree with the PA, and in some instances I agree with the Owners. But when the players in the NHL signed in the NHL, they abide to play under the rules. Play under the leagues rules. Its not the players game. They can't take the game over.

If you do not like the conditions you are playing under then just leave. By signing into the NHL you should have thought about the working conditions. Now, they ***** and moan at the owners for certain things they don't like about the game. Well, news flash.. Its not your job to decide what goes on in the NHL. All you do is play in the league, not make business decisions. If the NHL wants to implement a hard cap, then so be it. Thats the way it should be.

The players get paid to play hockey. Thats what they lived their entire lives for. For them to try and decide how the league should be run is ridiculous. Now, no I don't agree that a Hard Cap is the only way, as a matter of fact I think that the owners should back off that stance. Its not a perfect world, there are going to be flaws in every CBA proposed. The players have to understand that.

Now I know this argument is going to pop up. Ok, if your boss makes a change that you don't like. And this CHANGE will BETTER THE ENVIORNMENT THAT YOU WORK IN, You don't STOP working. You keep working even if you don't like the change. Eventually its gonna be known that the change he made is not very popular around the office, (construction field, w/e) and he will consider a change. Nobody likes to have unhappy employees.

The players just have to live with the fact that there is going to be a hard cap. I know that it may not seem right, but they have to deal with it. Probably if there is still an outcry that they hate it, it will get changed. But the fact of the matter is they are still getting paid to play hockey (which is supposed to be the game they love) so why can't they put money aside? Its not like they aren't going to get paid.

Its a shame to see what proffesional atheletes have come to. The greed is just unbelievable. Its not just hockey look at the Lakers last year. Look at G.P. now, look at Kobe. Ego's have taken over the game and its not a good thing to see.
Amen, brother

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02-13-2005, 04:08 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiesRLikeWins4Us
Ive posted this before.. But Im still gonna contribute it here.

I like to consider myself a neutral supporter. In some instances I agree with the PA, and in some instances I agree with the Owners. But when the players in the NHL signed in the NHL, they abide to play under the rules. Play under the leagues rules. Its not the players game. They can't take the game over.

If you do not like the conditions you are playing under then just leave. By signing into the NHL you should have thought about the working conditions. Now, they ***** and moan at the owners for certain things they don't like about the game. Well, news flash.. Its not your job to decide what goes on in the NHL. All you do is play in the league, not make business decisions. If the NHL wants to implement a hard cap, then so be it. Thats the way it should be.

The players get paid to play hockey. Thats what they lived their entire lives for. For them to try and decide how the league should be run is ridiculous. Now, no I don't agree that a Hard Cap is the only way, as a matter of fact I think that the owners should back off that stance. Its not a perfect world, there are going to be flaws in every CBA proposed. The players have to understand that.

Now I know this argument is going to pop up. Ok, if your boss makes a change that you don't like. And this CHANGE will BETTER THE ENVIORNMENT THAT YOU WORK IN, You don't STOP working. You keep working even if you don't like the change. Eventually its gonna be known that the change he made is not very popular around the office, (construction field, w/e) and he will consider a change. Nobody likes to have unhappy employees.

The players just have to live with the fact that there is going to be a hard cap. I know that it may not seem right, but they have to deal with it. Probably if there is still an outcry that they hate it, it will get changed. But the fact of the matter is they are still getting paid to play hockey (which is supposed to be the game they love) so why can't they put money aside? Its not like they aren't going to get paid.

Its a shame to see what proffesional atheletes have come to. The greed is just unbelievable. Its not just hockey look at the Lakers last year. Look at G.P. now, look at Kobe. Ego's have taken over the game and its not a good thing to see.
The players are trying to work under the owners rules and they understand their is a problem. They took a 24% salary hit. Let's not forget who offered the players their contracts. If, there is going to be a hard cap atleast make it, so the players will atleast consider it. There not going to accept a 42 million dollar cap. That number should atleast go up year after year just like other sports. This deal is going to last atleast 6 years so, this is also the players future. It's not like the players are denying their is a problem because no matter what at the end of the day the players all around are going to lose a lot but the way I see it the owners not only want to win in this agreement, they want to destroy.

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02-13-2005, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingz4life
Owners Proposals= 4 worthless proposals.
Player Proposal=1 proposal and it wasn;t worthless.

What have the owners offered that would favor the Union??? NOTHING. Don't get me wrong its not only the owners fault but I blame them much more. The fact is the Union isn't going to accept a 42 million dollar payroll. Players have given back, Owners havent done *****!
The PAs approach to negotiating is like bowling with a curtain put up in front of the pins.

You throw a ball an then it goes behind the curtain then you hear a crash and and someone on the other side yells back "you missed 4 pins, better luck next time". Then you get another ball and so it goes.

The NHLs offers have have been different every time yet the the PA refuses to TELL the League how they might be improved to move each offer more toward their needs. They just basically say no...missed again, too bad, good by.

The last offer was even the PA's own deal to the League and the PA didn't come back with any way to move the offer into any kind of an acceptable position. Just the same...you missed.

The PA isn't really opposed to a Cap that, what they are against is any form of negotiation.

How does anyone consider thier approach to be a negotiation when they have one offer and no counters to the 4 presented to them (including their very own offer)?

I don't know shiat about legal issues but to the average person on the street I'd have to say that if the Laws of this country DON'T give the League an impasse decision then there has GOT to be something basically wrong with our legal system.

The PA's dug their own hole by not countering these offers, bad as anyone may feel them to be.

If the crazy SOB Goodenow goes to the end today with no additional offers or counters then the sooner the League gets into court the faster we'll all be seeing this sport get to be played again.

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02-13-2005, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingz4life
The players are trying to work under the owners rules and they understand their is a problem. They took a 24% salary hit. Let's not forget who offered the players their contracts. If, there is going to be a hard cap atleast make it, so the players will atleast consider it. There not going to accept a 42 million dollar cap. That number should atleast go up year after year just like other sports. This deal is going to last atleast 6 years so, this is also the players future. It's not like the players are denying their is a problem because no matter what at the end of the day the players all around are going to lose a lot but the way I see it the owners not only want to win in this agreement, they want to destroy.

They didn't take a 24% salary hit. They offered it so they can try and get the public behind them (which didn't work I might add.)

When you get a job are you a boss or an employee? You might say, "well these guys are professional atheletes," but that simply doesn't matter. In the WWE when Vince McMahon makes somebody who won the Heavyweight Title (I know wrestling is fake, but still more people watch that than the NHL.) a mid-carder because of all of his hype is gone, What does that guy do? He probably gets pissed, but he still has to deal with it.

That may of not been the perfect analogy, but those guys are professional atheletes as well.

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02-13-2005, 06:49 PM
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02-13-2005, 07:06 PM
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Nope it's Herbies fault.

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02-13-2005, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R0CKET
The PAs approach to negotiating is like bowling with a curtain put up in front of the pins.

You throw a ball an then it goes behind the curtain then you hear a crash and and someone on the other side yells back "you missed 4 pins, better luck next time". Then you get another ball and so it goes.

The NHLs offers have have been different every time yet the the PA refuses to TELL the League how they might be improved to move each offer more toward their needs. They just basically say no...missed again, too bad, good by.

The last offer was even the PA's own deal to the League and the PA didn't come back with any way to move the offer into any kind of an acceptable position. Just the same...you missed.

The PA isn't really opposed to a Cap that, what they are against is any form of negotiation.

How does anyone consider thier approach to be a negotiation when they have one offer and no counters to the 4 presented to them (including their very own offer)?

I don't know shiat about legal issues but to the average person on the street I'd have to say that if the Laws of this country DON'T give the League an impasse decision then there has GOT to be something basically wrong with our legal system.

The PA's dug their own hole by not countering these offers, bad as anyone may feel them to be.

If the crazy SOB Goodenow goes to the end today with no additional offers or counters then the sooner the League gets into court the faster we'll all be seeing this sport get to be played again.
The NHL offers are offeres that the players dont even want to look at much less try to work with. Did you look at the NHL's last offer when they made it the Union's offer BUT added those 4 triggers? One trigger was that only 3 teams can go above the 42 million dollar payroll. The plan said that there would be luxary tax after 42 million and it would increase after a 45 million dolldar payroll. So, whats the point of making it the unions plan when only 3 teams can use it? Atleast 2 of the triggers could have easily been reached and if they were it would go back to the owners offer of a payroll of 32-42 million. Union won't accept a 42 million dollar payroll........


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02-13-2005, 09:48 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiesRLikeWins4Us
They didn't take a 24% salary hit. They offered it so they can try and get the public behind them (which didn't work I might add.)

When you get a job are you a boss or an employee? You might say, "well these guys are professional atheletes," but that simply doesn't matter. In the WWE when Vince McMahon makes somebody who won the Heavyweight Title (I know wrestling is fake, but still more people watch that than the NHL.) a mid-carder because of all of his hype is gone, What does that guy do? He probably gets pissed, but he still has to deal with it.

That may of not been the perfect analogy, but those guys are professional atheletes as well.
A)They did it for the publis support and B) They did it because they knew they HAD to give back.
The fact is they took the hit and isn't that the most important thing? And I'll ask again what hit have the Owners takin?
THEY NEED TO COMPROMISE TO GET A DEAL DONE AND THE LEAGUE NEEDS TO TAKE HITS JUST LIKE THE UNION SO A DEAL CAN BE REACHED.

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02-13-2005, 10:46 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Reaper45
Nope it's Herbies fault.

You know nothing.

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02-14-2005, 12:42 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingz4life
A)They did it for the publis support and B) They did it because they knew they HAD to give back.
The fact is they took the hit and isn't that the most important thing? And I'll ask again what hit have the Owners takin?
THEY NEED TO COMPROMISE TO GET A DEAL DONE AND THE LEAGUE NEEDS TO TAKE HITS JUST LIKE THE UNION SO A DEAL CAN BE REACHED.
Nobody has officially taken a hit till after the deal is signed. The owners will take the 24%, but if the PA withdrew it the owners would have no problem with that.

If you sign for a job, are you the boss or an employee?

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02-15-2005, 02:06 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiesRLikeWins4Us
Nobody has officially taken a hit till after the deal is signed. The owners will take the 24%, but if the PA withdrew it the owners would have no problem with that.

If you sign for a job, are you the boss or an employee?
Without the 24% rollback there probably would be no talk AT ALL. I'm sure the owners would have a problem if, that was withdrawn from any offers the players make.

Your the employee obviously, but if the boss is trying to make changes you have the right to go on strike, right?

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