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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

tsn reports: cap on the table from both sides

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Old
02-15-2005, 08:00 AM
  #51
Icey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd
Huh? The owners take linkage off the table, something they said they'd never do, and the players still can't make a good enough offer.

Anything you can say about one side can be said about the other.
Not according to Daly. According to him the league never insisted on linkage, so I guess the league didn't really give up anything and the players gave up everything.

Perhaps the league could bend just a bit here. And when so many so were so pissed off that the union didn't send the last league proposal for a vote, perhaps the same could be said here. Why didn't the owners vote on it? Maybe the owners would have approved it.

If bettman thought he was going to get an impass this summer, that just went down the toilet.

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02-15-2005, 08:11 AM
  #52
Ola
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tantalum
The difference between a $40 mil cap and a $52 mil cap is NOT simply $12 mil, it's over a third of a billion dollars....$360,000,000. It's 17% of reported leaguewide revenues. That is a HUGE difference yet. Especially with there being unknown business damage caused by the lockout. THe greedy puck is not in the owners end of the ice yet....it's still with the players.

That said it is MAJOR progress. If the season is saved than I can see the owners dropping linkage...why? Because the revenues could very well bounce back before the end of the 05-06 season. After that the revenues increase while the cap stays the same...in that case for the last years of the deal the owners laugh their way to the bank. I believe that no linkage is truly only a win for the players after the season gets cancelled and major harm is done to the business. With a shortened season and a lengthy CBA deal the players are going to wish they had linkage by that final year IMO.

What is interesting is the report that the tax thresholds and tax rate were also made significantly tougher...seems to me that the NHLPA brought forth that soft cap-tax-hard cap system. It's probably workable depending on the numbers: bring the cap down to $50 mil and dollar for dollar tax between 40 and 50 mil that counts towrad the cap (i.e. essentially a $45 mil cap).

The PA has bent significantly...they need to bend a bit more on the cap issue while reaping some free agency awards.

My guess is that the PA is talking to the executive trying to determine if they can split the difference while the league does the same with the governors. They then get back together this afternoon and see if it can be hammered out. 90% of the CBA will not change from the last one making it easy to put to paper quite quickly.

There is still a huge gulf between the sides money wise but atleast now it is simply money and not system issues. Kudos to the players for atleast getting over the cap is evil BS.
Thats pure BS and it even takes more credibility from your side. 14 teams didnīt spend over 40 millions last year, when they could, why would that 14 teams spend over it now when they would be forced to pay up to 6-10 million $ in luxery taxes to reach the 52 million hard cap?

The one negative side of this offer is that the lower level salary teams will save some of money on the 24% rollback and might/probably will use some of that money on salary. But like I said when they didnīt spend more before why would they now? Many of these teams are en rebuilding mode and it wouldnīt make sense for them to go out and sign players for 20-30 millon dollars like your post said it would(30*12=360 You remeber?)

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02-15-2005, 08:12 AM
  #53
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this is what is stupid

cut the BS and just get something done. even if it's too late for a season, just get something done with. so the players say they'll accept a cap, ok that's a good deal...i always felt if it was a reasonable cap level they should take it, it can always be revisited in another CBA when the league is hopefully in better shape (assuming this whole debacle doesn't screw the league beyond recognition)

put in a hard cap between $45 and $50 mill and be done with it. both sides don't "win" but neither side really "loses" either, and if the PA wants to throw in a little tax from $40 mill or so, then so be it.

just cut the crap and do it...wasted enough time already with the posturing and all

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02-15-2005, 08:21 AM
  #54
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the players have moved.

regardless of the numbers, both sides appear to be in the same proverbial ballpark. this deal MUST get done now, and the pressure is likely on the owners to finish it.

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02-15-2005, 08:26 AM
  #55
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In exchange for a $45M cap, offer the PA linkage if/when revenues rebound (ie 55% if/when 55% > $45M). With the PA coming to a cap, it has to be doable today.

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02-15-2005, 08:27 AM
  #56
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Daly was always telling the press that the two sides were close. However, as long as the differences in ideology were intact (cap vs no cap/linkage vs no linkage), I new they were as far apart as could possibly be.

With linkage thrown out the window and both sides agreeing to a cap, with a difference in only numbers, this is the first time during this entire lockout that I can finally say that the two sides are close to a deal.

I can't see them throwing away the season now over a $12 million gap. At the end of the day, they will most likely compromise aroune $45-47 million.

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02-15-2005, 08:29 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icey
Not according to Daly. According to him the league never insisted on linkage, so I guess the league didn't really give up anything and the players gave up everything.
That's just petty, and not even relevant. I suppose your daddy can beat up my daddy too? Yeah, the players are giving up so much by offering a $52 million salary cap.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Icey
If bettman thought he was going to get an impass this summer, that just went down the toilet.
They never said they were at any point considering an impasse.

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02-15-2005, 08:30 AM
  #58
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and the frustrating part is that's where i figured they'd end up back when this all started

i really hope the season isn't lost...some people may think it's best to cancel it even if a deal is done but i don't think that does the NHL any good

but...you know, the deal still isn't done and it could all fall apart yet again so i'm trying to not really get my hopes up at all. remember who we're dealing with...

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02-15-2005, 08:30 AM
  #59
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This is Gary's afault because he should have had a drop dead date back in the first week of January. The PA was holding out for this date to see if the owners would cave. Now you will see the real negotiations and comprimises made. I believe we will have hockey now after all. Probably a cap at 46 Million.

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02-15-2005, 08:39 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jratelle19
Daly was always telling the press that the two sides were close. However, as long as the differences in ideology were intact (cap vs no cap/linkage vs no linkage), I new they were as far apart as could possibly be.

With linkage thrown out the window and both sides agreeing to a cap, with a difference in only numbers, this is the first time during this entire lockout that I can finally say that the two sides are close to a deal.

I can't see them throwing away the season now over a $12 million gap. At the end of the day, they will most likely compromise aroune $45-47 million.
At this point I also find it hard to believe these guys won't get this deal done. The main 'philosophical' (i hate that) difference has been turfed and they are obviously in agreement on a number of 'off the record' details, with only the deal breakers left up for negotiation (arbitration, UFA age, Cap #'s). Now I think it is time for the league to give a little and get some things back. Raise the cap number to the mid-40's range and ask for a UFA age of 29/30 and leave arbitration alone. Cut the roll-back to 20% and go with a modified version of the teams luxury tax built to compensate for the hard cap at around 45 million. I don't see anything in that TSN article that isn't extremely negotiable considering what both sides have said in the last few days. And this isn't about one side caving either, it's about concessions and the nature of negotiations, people who've been preaching about the mid-40 million dollar cap hit it right on the head in my opinion. Asking the players to play under a market limited by a cap figure in the mid to high 30 million dollar range is and always has been a bit unreasonable in my opinion.

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02-15-2005, 08:42 AM
  #61
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wow, talk about great news to wake up to.

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02-15-2005, 08:42 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn
This is Gary's afault because he should have had a drop dead date back in the first week of January. The PA was holding out for this date to see if the owners would cave. Now you will see the real negotiations and comprimises made. I believe we will have hockey now after all. Probably a cap at 46 Million.
Can't blame the guy for wanting to negotiate in good faith with the union.

He'd be the most hated man if he called it that soon.

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02-15-2005, 08:44 AM
  #63
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Players won't budge....52 million and no lower than that. 52 million is NOT a realistic number and does NOT fix any problems.

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02-15-2005, 08:45 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kremlin
Players won't budge....52 million and no lower than that. 52 million is NOT a realistic number and does NOT fix any problems.
....

I suppose this statement comes from a reliable media outlet or the players themselves?

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02-15-2005, 08:45 AM
  #65
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you beat me to it, westcoast...

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02-15-2005, 08:47 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kremlin
Players won't budge....52 million and no lower than that. 52 million is NOT a realistic number and does NOT fix any problems.
They'll budge, they're too close not to.

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02-15-2005, 08:48 AM
  #67
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this at least gives me some hope that the NHL isn't folding and at the very least have a season next year.

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02-15-2005, 08:49 AM
  #68
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Valentine's Day in the Honeymoon Capital of the World for Bill and Ted's excellent adventure. Gotta love it.

I see the NHL countering with 45 million hard for this year and then 42 million hard for next year with luxury taxes starting at around 35 million with a floor around 32 million and enough revenue sharing to save the lower 1/3 of the league.

Hockey will start in 2 weeks but some players that gave their word they would never play under a cap system will have to retire or stay in Europe.

If they don't bridge the gap now fire both of them the day after tommorow.

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02-15-2005, 08:52 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by eye
Valentine's Day in the Honeymoon Capital of the World for Bill and Ted's excellent adventure. Gotta love it.

I see the NHL countering with 45 million hard for this year and then 42 million hard for next year with luxury taxes starting at around 35 million with a floor around 32 million and enough revenue sharing to save the lower 1/3 of the league.

Hockey will start in 2 weeks but some players that gave their word they would never play under a cap system will have to retire or stay in Europe.

If they don't bridge the gap now fire both of them the day after tommorow.
I still can't get over the fact that Ted and Bill (sorry, B&T fans) were in Niagra Falls on Valentines day. It just screams "sexual overtone"

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02-15-2005, 08:52 AM
  #70
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I personally still think it's too late now

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02-15-2005, 08:55 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Ola
Thats pure BS and it even takes more credibility from your side. 14 teams didnīt spend over 40 millions last year, when they could, why would that 14 teams spend over it now when they would be forced to pay up to 6-10 million $ in luxery taxes to reach the 52 million hard cap?

The one negative side of this offer is that the lower level salary teams will save some of money on the 24% rollback and might/probably will use some of that money on salary. But like I said when they didnīt spend more before why would they now? Many of these teams are en rebuilding mode and it wouldnīt make sense for them to go out and sign players for 20-30 millon dollars like your post said it would(30*12=360 You remeber?)
The difference between the two sides offers are $12 million between a cap or a possible $360,000,000. It has nothing to do with if a side is going to spend that money or not at this time while revenues are where they are at. What I'm saying is that it has become a money issue....a BIG money issue worth a POTENTIAL $360,000,000 per year of the agreement to each side. That is a huge gap.

If the players want some room for teams to grow into that cap (i.e. revenue growth) they can do so with linkage. Heck they can probably sign a deal at this time that says the cap can not drop below $40 mil for x number of years. After that link it revenues with the expectation that revenues will have rebounded and continue to grow. Grow the cap with the league not leave room for some teams to grow into a set cap...which btw could destroy the unions desire to have teams with differing payrolls.

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02-15-2005, 08:55 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by chiavsfan
I personally still think it's too late now
It can't be too late.... why cancel on wednesday and have talks when both sides said they wouldnt pick up the phone? None of it adds up... the formula for labor lockout to end

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02-15-2005, 08:56 AM
  #73
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That word 'framework' is finally there - this thing will get done. Both sides will meet in the middle around 45 mil and if there is a luxury tax threshold starting around 38 million then this is a great compromise from both sides.

I'm pro-owner and if Bettman doesn't work off this deal than there will be no doubt he was out to bust the union.

This system will absolutely curve the big spenders and allow the smaller clubs to compete. The big boys can still spend more but not outrageously. The players will still get paid and the fans can finally move away from this 'Business of Hockey' forum and on to much better things - you know, actual hockey games!

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02-15-2005, 09:00 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Shelf
That word 'framework' is finally there - this thing will get done. Both sides will meet in the middle around 45 mil and if there is a luxury tax threshold starting around 38 million then this is a great compromise from both sides.

I'm pro-owner and if Bettman doesn't work off this deal than there will be no doubt he was out to bust the union.

This system will absolutely curve the big spenders and allow the smaller clubs to compete. The big boys can still spend more but not outrageously. The players will still get paid and the fans can finally move away from this 'Business of Hockey' forum and on to much better things - you know, actual hockey games!
Agreed, the only owners who won't back this are the one's who want a cap ceiling at some ridiculous figure like $32 million or something. Heck, I'm pro-owner to a degree, but even I think that is screwing over the players way too much. Agree on the cap in the 45 million dollar range and I like the 38 million threshold. Concede a bit of UFA age, maybe some arbitration points as well as go with something resembling the players tax figures and I think you got a deal.

I think this can easily be made mutually beneficial.

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02-15-2005, 09:01 AM
  #75
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small clubs could always compete, there isn't really an issue with parity here. yeah some of the "big" teams could always hold together good teams and stay good for a long time, but you also didn't see them winning the cup every year. in every sport there are some haves and have nots, even when there are restrictions on salaries and things like that (cmon, the NFL with it's "hard cap" and all that stuff, yet teams like philly are perinneal powerhouses and the patriots are now a "dynasty")

parity in terms of winning and all isn't really what this is about. the issue with small market teams is definatly more about being able to hold together the good teams they build, being able to afford to give their players raises when they deserve them, etc.

parity in play is already there for the most part

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