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Phoenix LXV: The word is... give me a minute.... "Omnishambles"... "Omnishambles"

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Old
11-25-2012, 03:02 PM
  #151
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Neither do I. But didn't you hear? Sunnucks seemed to get a lot of his info from this board.
I'll give you credit for that. Good comeback.

All I would say is that there is an obvious difference between a journalist who is supposed to present facts and posters on this board who deal in speculation.

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11-25-2012, 03:30 PM
  #152
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I'll give you credit for that. Good comeback.

All I would say is that there is an obvious difference between a journalist who is supposed to present facts and posters on this board who deal in speculation.
That's why I liked Lisa Halverstadt, she was just reporting the fact without her feeling or comments... Maybe that's why she's not there anymore In that time, we could speculate on facts not on speculations

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11-25-2012, 03:40 PM
  #153
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All I would say is that there is an obvious difference between a journalist who is supposed to present facts and posters on this board who deal in speculation.
Brad Meltzer; "What if I was to tell you that Mike Sunnucks mines much of his information from hfBoards? Occasionally plagiarizing word for word the common sense observation & musings of any given members' post ('s)? That I have personally, deliberately & repeatedly employed the use of grammatical sublimation & syntax in order to verify my suspicions, and been proven right on numerous occasions, while re-reading a number of the memberships posts verbatim from a day or a week previously in one of his articles; Deja-vu, through a glass darkly"....

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11-25-2012, 05:45 PM
  #154
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IMO There is no investors...how can GJ or the NHL keep them secret for so long without leaking it..No chance
Thank you for clarifying the obvious! Every time someone throws another name, organization or cartoon character out, the mindless react as if, " this is the one"! There has never been a real buyer in all of this GJ conjecture, just go back and review his statements. Never once did he ever open up about any of the particulars. Instead, he has been flying at 40,000 feet with nary a word of his supposed JIG group and who may be involved. Why? Because now, as before, there are no investors, never were, never will be. To think that this charade has carried on this long has to be a pot of constant amusement to both GJ and GB. I`m sure they figured their gig would be discovered by now and off they would go to their next lie. But without a media willing to do some real investigatory work the charade goes on.


Regardless, of the upcoming vote the prospect of a referendum, a GWI lawsuit and/or the complete bureaucratic breakdown that comes standard in all government decisions this deal will never even get off the ground on the local level. Let the lease go, please the city would be far better off w/o the team. Not to mention the fact that the two over built egos that reside in Donald Fehr and GB will never allow the other to win this absurd battle. Hockey as we know it will see the next puck dropped in December 2013! By then, there will be no team in the desert they will be plying their craft in another destination in front of a crowd who could not care less!

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11-25-2012, 09:12 PM
  #155
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That's why I liked Lisa Halverstadt, she was just reporting the fact without her feeling or comments... Maybe that's why she's not there anymore In that time, we could speculate on facts not on speculations
Lisa was a good egg. She actually moved on to a better position covering the politics in San Diego. AZ Republic is owned by Gannett who is not the most generous employer when it comes to paying their employees.

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11-25-2012, 09:17 PM
  #156
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Thank you for clarifying the obvious! Every time someone throws another name, organization or cartoon character out, the mindless react as if, " this is the one"! There has never been a real buyer in all of this GJ conjecture, just go back and review his statements. Never once did he ever open up about any of the particulars. Instead, he has been flying at 40,000 feet with nary a word of his supposed JIG group and who may be involved. Why? Because now, as before, there are no investors, never were, never will be. To think that this charade has carried on this long has to be a pot of constant amusement to both GJ and GB. I`m sure they figured their gig would be discovered by now and off they would go to their next lie. But without a media willing to do some real investigatory work the charade goes on.
ok ... what is the reason for the charade, and why is jamison party to it?

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11-25-2012, 09:19 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by mesamonster View Post
Thank you for clarifying the obvious! Every time someone throws another name, organization or cartoon character out, the mindless react as if, " this is the one"! There has never been a real buyer in all of this GJ conjecture, just go back and review his statements. Never once did he ever open up about any of the particulars. Instead, he has been flying at 40,000 feet with nary a word of his supposed JIG group and who may be involved. Why? Because now, as before, there are no investors, never were, never will be. To think that this charade has carried on this long has to be a pot of constant amusement to both GJ and GB. I`m sure they figured their gig would be discovered by now and off they would go to their next lie. But without a media willing to do some real investigatory work the charade goes on.

Regardless, of the upcoming vote the prospect of a referendum, a GWI lawsuit and/or the complete bureaucratic breakdown that comes standard in all government decisions this deal will never even get off the ground on the local level. Let the lease go, please the city would be far better off w/o the team. Not to mention the fact that the two over built egos that reside in Donald Fehr and GB will never allow the other to win this absurd battle. Hockey as we know it will see the next puck dropped in December 2013! By then, there will be no team in the desert they will be plying their craft in another destination in front of a crowd who could not care less!
No Mesa.....

What is painfully obvious is that no one knows what is atually going on and are left to continually speculate upon filling in the Grand Canyon sized gaps between what IS known with their own takes based upon their own personal agendas.

That includes yours.... mine...... and everyone else.

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11-26-2012, 05:58 AM
  #158
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if a guy or a bank in Chicago wanted to buy an NHL team, any NHL team, there are far better, easier and cheaper options than the Phoenix Coyotes. Look no further than the St Louis Blues, who were sold for far less than $170 million, with a bunch of extra stuff thrown in for good measure.

So if there's any truth to this at all, I can only conclude that, like Ice Edge, like Hulsizer, the mystery bank or banker simply isn't qualified to own a real NHL team, and is trying to buy the Coyotes instead, through smoke and mirrors, while using Other Peoples Money.

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11-26-2012, 09:41 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
ok ... what is the reason for the charade, and why is jamison party to it?
Lets start with the fact that the BOG and GB have never seriously wanted to sell this team! If they did they would not be asking 70% more than it is worth. If they really believed the PHX market was so good that the league needed to continue to have a presence they would have found a way to make this deal work. Their actions suggest that as long as someone else was picking up the bulk of the $40MM in annual losses they could bide their time until a relocation site opened up. To get away with this strategy they needed a straw buyer to keep the lie intact. GJ has shown or done NOTHING to lead anyone to believe he is the real thing!

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11-26-2012, 09:55 AM
  #160
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Lets start with the fact that the BOG and GB have never seriously wanted to sell this team! If they did they would not be asking 70% more than it is worth. If they really believed the PHX market was so good that the league needed to continue to have a presence they would have found a way to make this deal work. Their actions suggest that as long as someone else was picking up the bulk of the $40MM in annual losses they could bide their time until a relocation site opened up. To get away with this strategy they needed a straw buyer to keep the lie intact. GJ has shown or done NOTHING to lead anyone to believe he is the real thing!
Interesting theory, and it actually makes some sense. Might be the only thing in this whole 3+ year saga that does.

I think even the most ardent Coyote supporters would admit that the team would be long gone without the $50M largess of the CoG.

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11-26-2012, 10:05 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by mesamonster View Post
Lets start with the fact that the BOG and GB have never seriously wanted to sell this team! If they did they would not be asking 70% more than it is worth. If they really believed the PHX market was so good that the league needed to continue to have a presence they would have found a way to make this deal work. Their actions suggest that as long as someone else was picking up the bulk of the $40MM in annual losses they could bide their time until a relocation site opened up. To get away with this strategy they needed a straw buyer to keep the lie intact. GJ has shown or done NOTHING to lead anyone to believe he is the real thing!
ok, so in your mind, that's the crux of this whole strategic charade? i certainly wont argue with that.

im curious tho. given that there are two suitable, albeit not perfect, relocations available right now, both with guarantees of adding significantly to the HRR total (hamilton and QC, granted, both in need of updating/replacement facilities), and there is no money currently on the glendale table (and/or would have been so litigious as to be worth pennies on the dollar, if that), then can I assume you would agree that this team would have been in one of those two cities this season were it not for the lockout?

perhaps knowing the lockout was coming, bettman whispered to PKP back in July, "let's hold off for a year and then it's yours. now hurry up with that new arena". and continuing to jack up the purchase price above market value for the team, rather than pricing it reasonably and charging a relo fee, might also serve to take money arguably suitable for HRR classification away from the PA. (assuming relo fee's are HRR)

no matter how you slice and dice it, the yotes are an integral piece of the whole CBA/HRR puzzle. and as time passes, it's more apparent that this piece wont remain in phoenix. there is simply no benefit whatsoever in that, and it results in tremendous cost, both actualized and opportunity.

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11-26-2012, 10:33 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
no matter how you slice and dice it, the yotes are an integral piece of the whole CBA/HRR puzzle. and as time passes, it's more apparent that this piece wont remain in phoenix. there is simply no benefit whatsoever in that, and it results in tremendous cost, both actualized and opportunity.
IMO I think the Coyotes are part of the whole CBA fiasco, but not from a financial point of view, but from a timing point of view.

By that I mean that I don't think Daly and Fehr are using the relocation of the Coyotes as a negotiation point to increase HRR, but I think Bettman knew as soon as the NHLPA hired Fehr that he was 100% certain he was going to have another lockout and a very good chance he was going to lose a full season and therefore have another year in the bank for dealing with the Coyotes, while waiting for new building to get built somewhere.

The thing is, when Bettman bought this team out of BK, he always knew he was never going to have a problem getting his money back nor find another landing place for it, if that was required. He always had options:

- He knew Winnipeg was an interested buyer
- He knew QC, Seattle, and Markham were interested, but needed time to build facilities. But one of them will eventually pony up and buy a team.

- But most importantly, IMO, he knew he had at least 4 people sitting on the CoG council that were willing to do anything to keep the team in Glendale. So he got 2 years of time out of them by having the CoG keep paying $25M / year ( and Daly's "It's just insurance" speech to help things along ) . And now he has his lockout year. So he has had 3 years to try and get something happening in other cities building wise, and things are moving along.

Conspiracy theory I know, but some times even the craziest plans work out.


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11-26-2012, 10:48 AM
  #163
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Conspiracy theory I know, but some times even the craziest plans work out.
I would not call it a conspiracy theory at all. someone (presumably killion) refered to occam's razor a while back. everything you write here is supported by some level of evidence and overall it makes a lot more sense than any other grand theory of the situation presented thus far.

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11-26-2012, 11:16 AM
  #164
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IMO I think the Coyotes are part of the whole CBA fiasco, but not from a financial point of view, but from a timing point of view.

By that I mean that I don't think Daly and Fehr are using the relocation of the Coyotes as a negotiation point to increase HRR, but I think Bettman knew as soon as the NHLPA hired Fehr that he was 100% certain he was going to have another lockout and a very good chance he was going to lose a full season and therefore have another year in the bank for dealing with the Coyotes, while waiting for new building to get built somewhere.

The thing is, when Bettman bought this team out of BK, he always knew he was never going to have a problem getting his money back nor find another landing place for it, if that was required. He always had options:

- He knew Winnipeg was an interested buyer
- He knew QC, Seattle, and Markham were interested, but needed time to build facilities. But one of them will eventually pony up and buy a team.

- But most importantly, IMO, he knew he had at least 4 people sitting on the CoG council that were willing to do anything to keep the team in Glendale. So he got 2 years of time out of them by having the CoG keep paying $25M / year ( and Daly's "It's just insurance" speech to help things along ) . And now he has his lockout year. So he has had 3 years to try and get something happening in other cities building wise, and things are moving along.

Conspiracy theory I know, but some times even the craziest plans work out.
It certainly would help to explain the seeming obsession with NHL keeping the team there-particularly the "finding someone to pay for it" part of it. Though I'm not 100 percent sold yet on the "the 3 years was all part of the plan" necessarily, but rather I think it may have started as a earnest endeavor for the NHL to keep the team there, but it's slowly evolved over the saga to the point its at now.

The idea that the NHL lately has been "using" effectively CoG and Glendale to keep the team there is Machevillian, but there's a nugget there I think of truth. Again, I say I feel bad for the Yotes fans who supported the team if this is in fact the case: Dare I say if it all comes out at the end that your theory was in whole or in part true, there are going to be some very very angry Yotes fans who I think would pretty much swear off the product, and be sure tell anyone who will listen-it will leave a very bad taste in their mouth. Nevermind all the jokes about how few of them there are: the fact is there ARE fans of the team out there, and there anger would be very understandable and I think needs to be acknowledged.

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11-26-2012, 11:18 AM
  #165
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Conspiracy theory I know, but some times even the craziest plans work out.
... its possible, however, to ascribe such cunning to Bettman & Daly as Master Marionettes, Jamison in the role of puppet, well, there are some methodological flaws to such a plan. The three 'P's"; Phoenix Pinocchio Plan. The file buried in Gary Bettmans wall safe behind the portrait of Mario Lemieux in his office down there in Manhattan.

One of the hallmarks of a plausible Conspiracy Theory is that nothing is haphazard, coincidental, whereas throughout this episode, the NHL has been fighting a rear guard entirely reactive battle as opposed to anything even vaguely resembling a proactive seemingly intelligent series of strategies. A short con; entirely responsive and opportunistic as opposed to a long con, requiring some serious creativity & critical thought, flawless execution. Not seeing it.

When you enter through the gates of Conspiracy Land with such theories, once cognized, confirmational biases and avoidance of cognitive dissonance reinforces the beliefs that there is indeed a Conspiracy in play. When proposed & then promoted by one, two or twelve + members of a group, dangerous ground, Communal Reinforcement, objectivity lost, the facts becoming irrelevant, disconnection, cynicism paralysing rational discourse. Thread unravels. Not happenin on my watch Mister.

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11-26-2012, 11:18 AM
  #166
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Anyone know if Bettman, Daly, or Jamison will be in attendance on Tues?

Generally, the outcome of votes is known in advance of the actual meeting. Also generally speaking, interested parties do not show up if they know the vote is going against them.

Just a thought for consideration.

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11-26-2012, 11:34 AM
  #167
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Anyone know if Bettman, Daly, or Jamison will be in attendance on Tues?... Generally, the outcome of votes is known in advance of the actual meeting. Also generally speaking, interested parties do not show up if they know the vote is going against them.... Just a thought for consideration.
... good question and point. Its not like Bettman or Daly have anything else more important to be doing, you know, like meeting with Fehr & the PA in NYC or Toronto. And if Jamisons' absolutely serious about this, you'd have thunk he'd have been somewhat more vocal, available to the media, maybe responded to incoming Mayor Weiers "open letter" of 2.5 months ago by now.

On the one hand, if any of the parties, and in particular Jamison himself does show up, actually rises & says something meaningful, then maybe he can actually be believed, however, he's just got to divulge who his backers are, and if asked and still refuses to divulge that inf, then GTF outta town. Would he, Daly or Bettman even open themselves to even being asked such a question (or questions)? Or would they just give a short speech full of platitudes, providing nothing in the way of hard facts, sit down again or exit stage left? Maybe they dont show up at all, the appearance considered "unseemly", the excuse being that its a municipal matter, said what theyve had to say, entirely up to and on the city to perform, cough up, free jump without a chute full of holes right off the fiscal cliff.

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11-26-2012, 11:48 AM
  #168
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... good question and point. Its not like Bettman or Daly have anything else more important to be doing, you know, like meeting with Fehr & the PA in NYC or Toronto. And if Jamisons' absolutely serious about this, you'd have thunk he'd have been somewhat more vocal, available to the media, maybe responded to incoming Mayor Weiers "open letter" of 2.5 months ago by now.

On the one hand, if any of the parties, and in particular Jamison himself does show up, actually rises & says something meaningful, then maybe he can actually be believed, however, he's just got to divulge who his backers are, and if asked and still refuses to divulge that inf, then GTF outta town. Would he, Daly or Bettman even open themselves to even being asked such a question (or questions)? Or would they just give a short speech full of platitudes, providing nothing in the way of hard facts, sit down again or exit stage left? Maybe they dont show up at all, the appearance considered "unseemly", the excuse being that its a municipal matter, said what theyve had to say, entirely up to and on the city to perform, cough up, free jump without a chute full of holes right off the fiscal cliff.
Can't imagine for a moment that GB or BD would bother heading off to Glendale for another sham vote. Unless GJ begs them to show up and hold his hand.

This being said... GJ is a big boy and if he wants his 300M + I'm sure he'll show up for this meeting and cough up a barrel full of platitudes. At this point I don't think it matters if GJ introduces his "investors" should they truly exist. I'm sure GJ could tell the COG that Castro and Sheriff Joe are his main partners and Clark would still salivate and vote "Yes" with no prejudice.

GJ will show up tomorrow.. won't he?

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11-26-2012, 12:02 PM
  #169
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... good question and point. Its not like Bettman or Daly have anything else more important to be doing, you know, like meeting with Fehr & the PA in NYC or Toronto.
Its not as if CBA negotiations are at such a critical juncture that both Bettman and Daly need to be there and can't spare a few hours to take a private to and from Phoenix to make an appearance at the meeting.

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11-26-2012, 12:05 PM
  #170
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ok, so in your mind, that's the crux of this whole strategic charade? i certainly wont argue with that.

im curious tho. given that there are two suitable, albeit not perfect, relocations available right now, both with guarantees of adding significantly to the HRR total (hamilton and QC, granted, both in need of updating/replacement facilities), and there is no money currently on the glendale table (and/or would have been so litigious as to be worth pennies on the dollar, if that), then can I assume you would agree that this team would have been in one of those two cities this season were it not for the lockout?

perhaps knowing the lockout was coming, bettman whispered to PKP back in July, "let's hold off for a year and then it's yours. now hurry up with that new arena". and continuing to jack up the purchase price above market value for the team, rather than pricing it reasonably and charging a relo fee, might also serve to take money arguably suitable for HRR classification away from the PA. (assuming relo fee's are HRR)

no matter how you slice and dice it, the yotes are an integral piece of the whole CBA/HRR puzzle. and as time passes, it's more apparent that this piece wont remain in phoenix. there is simply no benefit whatsoever in that, and it results in tremendous cost, both actualized and opportunity.

That makes sense to me! My point is that GB has been a disingenuous goof through all of this. Pace back through his activity on the Glendale front and what becomes so obvious is how uninterested he was, sure he would make his token appearances and media quips but really it was so obvious that this guy cared very little for this franchise. So along the way he found these NHL wanna be owners who did not have the real resources necessary to buy a team. GB played up their creds, wheeeled them out there and told them to say as little as possible. Lo and behold nobody really did any DD on these guys and the story lingered on mostly at the expense of the Glendale taxpayer.

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11-26-2012, 12:09 PM
  #171
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Can't imagine for a moment that GB or BD would bother heading off to Glendale for another sham vote. Unless GJ begs them to show up and hold his hand.

This being said... GJ is a big boy and if he wants his 300M + I'm sure he'll show up for this meeting and cough up a barrel full of platitudes. At this point I don't think it matters if GJ introduces his "investors" should they truly exist. I'm sure GJ could tell the COG that Castro and Sheriff Joe are his main partners and Clark would still salivate and vote "Yes" with no prejudice.

GJ will show up tomorrow.. won't he?
I don't think Bettman nor Daly need to be there, BUT, Jamison better be there. If some city was about to give me $308M as a gift hidden within a management fee, I would most assuredly make an appearance to say thanks.

And if I was on the council and was about to vote Yes, and Jamison wasn't there, my Yes vote would quickly become a No vote.

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11-26-2012, 12:27 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
I don't think Bettman nor Daly need to be there, BUT, Jamison better be there. If some city was about to give me $308M as a gift hidden within a management fee, I would most assuredly make an appearance to say thanks.

And if I was on the council and was about to vote Yes, and Jamison wasn't there, my Yes vote would quickly become a No vote.
Amen!!!!

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11-26-2012, 12:29 PM
  #173
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I don't think Bettman nor Daly need to be there, BUT, Jamison better be there. If some city was about to give me $308M as a gift hidden within a management fee, I would most assuredly make an appearance to say thanks.

And if I was on the council and was about to vote Yes, and Jamison wasn't there, my Yes vote would quickly become a No vote.
i heard the city has arranged for JIG investor parking as well ...



fire up your twitter, folks, dj's got some doozeys.

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11-26-2012, 12:47 PM
  #174
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Not sure if anyone knew

Quote:
Maricopa Co. expected to release official election results

Posted: Nov 26, 2012 8:05 AM EST
Updated: Nov 26, 2012 8:39 AM EST
Posted by Breann Bierman


PHOENIX (CBS5) -

All the votes are finally counted and Maricopa County election officials are expected to release the official results of the November election Monday morning.

The final numbers will be turned in to the Secretary of State
http://www.kpho.com/story/20183126/m...ection-results

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11-26-2012, 12:47 PM
  #175
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Quebec City
Country: Serbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post
Anyone know if Bettman, Daly, or Jamison will be in attendance on Tues?

Generally, the outcome of votes is known in advance of the actual meeting. Also generally speaking, interested parties do not show up if they know the vote is going against them.

Just a thought for consideration.
I would really like to see Fehr make a show up ! And what about Mr. Shane Doan. Would he not be there to wink at Joyce ?

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