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The Luongo Thread: Another Brick in the Wall Edition

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11-29-2012, 01:48 PM
  #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Gillis already brought in Booth as a pet project, I don't think we need another 4m+ winger that needs his game overhauled. If we're going to take on a project, I'd rather that be a young, cheap player.

If you look at AV's history, he doesn't discriminate young and old. Lupul would have the same problem as any young guy would here, if you don't play both ways, you aren't going to play.
Explains why the Sedins were still spoonfed top minutes in the 2011 playoffs, despite getting eaten alive defensively, right?

Give me a player who is coming off a PPG season over an enigma of a prospect who AV wouldn't play anyways.

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11-29-2012, 01:57 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Explains why the Sedins were still spoonfed top minutes in the 2011 playoffs, despite getting eaten alive defensively, right?
I thought you were a Corsi guy? http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...34+45+46+63+67

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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Give me a player who is coming off a PPG season over an enigma of a prospect who AV wouldn't play anyways.
I'm not as impressed by players that put up points while playing suspect defence on poor teams.

It's hilarious that you're willing to move the needle so much to justify your position.

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11-29-2012, 02:00 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Explains why the Sedins were still spoonfed top minutes in the 2011 playoffs, despite getting eaten alive defensively, right?

Give me a player who is coming off a PPG season over an enigma of a prospect who AV wouldn't play anyways.


The Sedins paid their dues when the Canucks were a defensive team under Nonis. They earned the trust of AV. It's not great now though, but they at least gave AV a reason to trust them across 200ft of ice... And I know it's a flawed stat but their +/- has always been very healthy over large samples.


You got to play both ways. At least AV can teach a prospect to do that while young.

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11-29-2012, 02:10 PM
  #354
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I am sure they would be but, like I said, Toronto in particular does not have the assets for Schneider. Same for Tampa if they were a potential bidder for Lou, or Edmonton if they would not pony up a Yakupov in a Schneider package. I also don't think Florida is a great fit for Schneider. The only teams that could credibly bid on both are Edmonton and Washington and maybe Chicago.

The point of putting them both on the block is to get the best possible combination of assets to help the team now and in the future.

I have not seen a single Luongo package that makes Vancouver close to as good as they were last year. A Luongo deal is only going to result in futures and maybe one depth player. That's a major step back for a team that was a contender. Trading Schneider could garner a signficant asset that helps this year (if there is one)

So while Toronto may be bidding in relative isolation for Lou, they would be bidding indirectly against what other teams would pay for Schneider. Makes sense no?
So you think Burke is going to make offer's for Luongo competitive to what others are making for Schnieder?

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11-29-2012, 02:16 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Not sure how putting Schnieder up instead of Luongo is going to increase Luongo offers. Most of the teams mildly interested in Luongo would be much more interested in Schnieder.
As a Leafs' fan you should hope the Canucks don't decide Schnieder is the goalie they choose to trade. The Leafs currently do not have the asset(s) required to attain him. Consequently, the Leafs would be without a goalie - again.

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11-29-2012, 02:22 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
It was known to be higher than Varlomov last season when Varly was traded. Varly got the most out of the goalies you mentioned, and all Shnieds has done is put up godly numbers since.
Then maybe the Canucks should trade both Luongo and Schneider, if they're going to fetch returns as handsome as Perry/Eberle/picks. Then grab cheap goaltenders like Lehtonen/Lindback for next to nothing to fill in the void.

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11-29-2012, 02:23 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
So you think Burke is going to make offer's for Luongo competitive to what others are making for Schnieder?
No I think you are missing my point......

Much has been written about how Toronto is the only logical destination for Lou. That may or may not be true. regardless, my point is, if Toronto has the highest bid on Lou and it's a bucket of crap, Vancouver has to then decide between accepting that pile of stinkiness, or trading Schneider this year or next. If Vancouver trades Schneider, Toronto is not able to get Lou. So the point about Burke having leverage against Vancouver as the only probable bidder for Lou does not hold a lot of water.

Vancouver should (IMO) balance what they can get for each goalie against what's best for the team.

Putting Lou on the block and not doing the same for Schneider is not in their best interest.

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11-29-2012, 02:26 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
As a Leafs' fan you should hope the Canucks don't decide Schnieder is the goalie they choose to trade. The Leafs currently do not have the asset(s) required to attain him. Consequently, the Leafs would be without a goalie - again.
It doesn't really matter. as i've stated, i think Burke has a max he is willing to go to. If Gillis doesn't accept it (which he has every right not to) then the trading of Schnieder is of zero consequence.

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11-29-2012, 02:28 PM
  #359
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Lu said it's time to move on, you guys need to do that. We are not trading Schneider.

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11-29-2012, 02:29 PM
  #360
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No I think you are missing my point......

Much has been written about how Toronto is the only logical destination for Lou. That may or may not be true. regardless, my point is, if Toronto has the highest bid on Lou and it's a bucket of crap, Vancouver has to then decide between accepting that pile of stinkiness, or trading Schneider this year or next. If Vancouver trades Schneider, Toronto is not able to get Lou. So the point about Burke having leverage against Vancouver as the only probable bidder for Lou does not hold a lot of water.

Vancouver should (IMO) balance what they can get for each goalie against what's best for the team.

Putting Lou on the block and not doing the same for Schneider is not in their best interest.
I have never said Burke has any leveredge, all i have said is he has a max he will go to. If Gillis doesn't feel it's enough then so be it. I agree, Gillis needs to do what is right for his team, as does Burke.

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11-29-2012, 02:30 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
No I think you are missing my point......

Much has been written about how Toronto is the only logical destination for Lou. That may or may not be true. regardless, my point is, if Toronto has the highest bid on Lou and it's a bucket of crap, Vancouver has to then decide between accepting that pile of stinkiness, or trading Schneider this year or next. If Vancouver trades Schneider, Toronto is not able to get Lou. So the point about Burke having leverage against Vancouver as the only probable bidder for Lou does not hold a lot of water.

Vancouver should (IMO) balance what they can get for each goalie against what's best for the team.

Putting Lou on the block and not doing the same for Schneider is not in their best interest.
Your argument makes a lot of sense, but it creates a serious (and considering your argument) undeniable question.

Has Luongo demanded a trade, no matter his public stance? This would devalue Luongo, and the Leafs' fans would be correct in their argument.

Otherwise, why would Gillis not float both goalies names for trade?

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11-29-2012, 02:31 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
It doesn't really matter. as i've stated, i think Burke has a max he is willing to go to. If Gillis doesn't accept it (which he has every right not to) then the trading of Schnieder is of zero consequence.
How does this resolve the Leafs' serious goaltending issues?

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11-29-2012, 02:33 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
It doesn't really matter. as i've stated, i think Burke has a max he is willing to go to. If Gillis doesn't accept it (which he has every right not to) then the trading of Schnieder is of zero consequence.
There is no leverage is the point I am trying to make....not really any room for gamesmanship. Like I said, I just think it forces Burke to actually state what that package is rather than expecting he can bid in happy isolation.

If the most Burke offers is Komisarek and a 1st, Gillis has to consider if that is a better route to go than trading Schneider. I have no idea what Burke is willing to pay and what Gillis expects, I am simply suggesting I think Gillis would be pretty daft to not consider trading Schneider as an alternative.

In my mind, he should have done it the previous off-season when Philly was sitting without a goalie and was holding the #8 pick in the 2011 draft. Or even before the draft this year when Tampa and Columbus had yet to do a poor job of addressing their needs. Gillis preferred another shot at glory and I am not sure there is another package out there as good as getting that pick would have been.

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11-29-2012, 02:36 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Your argument makes a lot of sense, but it creates a serious (and considering your argument) undeniable question.

Has Luongo demanded a trade, no matter his public stance? This would devalue Luongo, and the Leafs' fans would be correct in their argument.

Otherwise, why would Gillis not float both goalies names for trade?
My guess is that Gillis really wants to keep Schneider, or more likely, he has been directed to by ownership. I can't see Gillis fearing the contract - as he signed off on it. I can't see Gillis being afraid of fan reaction. I can't see Gillis giving a rats ass what Vinnie thinks. I can see him bowing to Aquilini telling him to move Lou.

I doubt Luongo has requested a trade. I do not doubt that both Lou and Schneider have made it clear to Gillis they don't really want to both be here next year. And I completely respect that. It was a circus and unfair to both of them. I don't doubt that Luongo would be happy to come back provided Schneider was dealt.

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11-29-2012, 02:38 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Lu said it's time to move on, you guys need to do that . I do not want Gillis to trade Schneider.
Gillis? Is that you?

Fixed it for you.

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11-29-2012, 02:45 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
My guess is that Gillis really wants to keep Schneider, or more likely, he has been directed to by ownership. I can't see Gillis fearing the contract - as he signed off on it. I can't see Gillis being afraid of fan reaction. I can't see Gillis giving a rats ass what Vinnie thinks. I can see him bowing to Aquilini telling him to move Lou.

I doubt Luongo has requested a trade. I do not doubt that both Lou and Schneider have made it clear to Gillis they don't really want to both be here next year. And I completely respect that. It was a circus and unfair to both of them. I don't doubt that Luongo would be happy to come back provided Schneider was dealt.
We're all speculating at this point but your account of events goes against some things that we know.

Aquilini and Luongo have a very good personal relationship.

Roberto Luongo said that it's time to move on. We also know that his family situation has been made difficult by being so far from Florida.

Mike Gillis has said that the team would not ask players to waive their NTC and none of his actions have gone against this.

That leaves a lot of room for interpretation but your scenario doesn't make sense based on what we know.

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11-29-2012, 02:47 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
Gillis? Is that you?

Fixed it for you.
You don't have to be Gillis to understand that you need to trade the player that said "It's time to move on" over the player that has said and done the right things for the team over and over again. We should want players that want to be here.

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11-29-2012, 02:52 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
We're all speculating at this point but your account of events goes against some things that we know.

Aquilini and Luongo have a very good personal relationship.

Roberto Luongo said that it's time to move on. We also know that his family situation has been made difficult by being so far from Florida.

Mike Gillis has said that the team would not ask players to waive their NTC and none of his actions have gone against this.

That leaves a lot of room for interpretation but your scenario doesn't make sense based on what we know.
If Luongo really had a problem with being in Vancouver rather than Florida, he would never have signed a 12 year contract here. That seems obvious to me.

Luongo cannot rationally expect we are going to move him to Tampa or Florida if those teams are not willing to give up anything of value in return. I am sure Gillis would try to accomodate him, but I think he'd serve the needs of the franchise first.

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11-29-2012, 02:55 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
You don't have to be Gillis to understand that you need to trade the player that said "It's time to move on" over the player that has said and done the right things for the team over and over again. We should want players that want to be here.
There's been quite a bit said this off-season, but nowhere have I heard Lou outright make a trade demand.

I have also heard Schneider say he is ready to be a #1 goalie "somewhere". How do you interpret that? I take it as "give me the job here or move me".


Gillis reiterated Luongo has maintained the same stance — he would accept a trade if it best suited the team — that he declared to reporters in his April 24 exit interviews.


“No, it's not full-on that we're trying to find him a new home,” Gillis said. “What he indicated was that if we felt a change was necessary, he would do whatever was best for the team once we made that decision. And that's all he said.


“We haven't come to the conclusion yet what's in the best interests of the team and Roberto is going to be part of the process. I talked to him again last week to see how he was feeling and we're going to start moving ahead now that we've cleared up some other issues. We'll start looking at where we want to go with this situation and others.”


Gillis further added that if both Luongo and Schneider were back, they would compete for the No. 1 job. (On his conference call Wednesday, Vigneault had strongly hinted Schneider would start next season as the No. 1. “What happened in the playoffs would be an indication of what might happen moving forward,” said the coach.)


“I know you guys want to read into every possible meaning that you can,” Gillis continued, “but the reality is that if both are back, they'll be competing for the No. 1 job and whoever wins it will win it.”


Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/V...#ixzz2DeCSfqCQ

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11-29-2012, 02:58 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
There's been quite a bit said this off-season, but nowhere have I heard Lou outright make a trade demand.

I have also heard Schneider say he is ready to be a #1 goalie "somewhere". How do you interpret that? I take it as "give me the job here or move me".
Was this said when it was still thought that he would be moved over Luongo? Was this said before or after he signed an extended deal to stay here?

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11-29-2012, 03:05 PM
  #371
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Was this said when it was still thought that he would be moved over Luongo? Was this said before or after he signed an extended deal to stay here?
Who cares....he signed an extension here while Lou is still employed here. Given Gillis' public stance that he is willing to bring them both back, neither Lou nor Schneider are going to be calling the shots.

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11-29-2012, 03:06 PM
  #372
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If Luongo really had a problem with being in Vancouver rather than Florida, he would never have signed a 12 year contract here. That seems obvious to me.
If Luongo didn't have a problem with being in Vancouver he would have kept his mouth shut and let his NTC do the talking.

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There's been quite a bit said this off-season, but nowhere have I heard Lou outright make a trade demand.
"It's time to move on" does not leave much room for interpretation.

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11-29-2012, 03:07 PM
  #373
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How does this resolve the Leafs' serious goaltending issues?
While i fully admit the Leafs have issues in goal, there is still only a certain price they can afford to pay....it's really that simple.

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11-29-2012, 03:12 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
If Luongo didn't have a problem with being in Vancouver he would have kept his mouth shut and let his NTC do the talking.



"It's time to move on" does not leave much room for interpretation.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...interview.html

So that is the summation of the 'trade demand' just to be clear about the source.

I can make no claim to know what Luongo is willing to do, stay or go. I can claim that Gillis will make the best move he can for the franchise. If that is trading Schneider, I think he'll do it.

The point I've made over and over, is that a crap return for Lou vs an amazing return for Schneider should have only one conclusion.

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11-29-2012, 03:15 PM
  #375
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While i fully admit the Leafs have issues in goal, there is still only a certain price they can afford to pay....it's really that simple.
Agreed. That's true for every team. Tampa made a pretty strong statement that they were not willing to make that kind of a commit and went a different direction. Burke may be forced to do the same and look elsewhere.

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