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Would you rather win 1 Stanley Cup or 5 Hart Trophies if you were a player?

View Poll Results: Would you rather win
1 Stanley Cup 163 48.95%
5 Hart Trophies 170 51.05%
Voters: 333. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-23-2012, 07:59 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Um, Hasek, who plays the most influential position in the NHL would have been considered one of the best ever even if he never went to Detroit. It's a team game. Gretzky playing on a ****** team would never have won the cup.
99 playing on ANY TEAM that wasn't the HHOF Oilers didn't win a Cup. He played on plenty of good teams and still only got close once.

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11-23-2012, 08:22 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
If he didn't have a Cup, that would be brought up.

On the other hand, Niemi and "won the Cup" often travel together.
I doubt it would be brought up much. Whenever anyone brings up their case for being the GOAT, they bring up his Vezinas and Harts. They bring up his body of work with the Sabres. I've yet to see anyone say "he was great with the Sabres, but that cup really cemented his legacy". Really no one even talks about his cup with the Wings. Once in a while people bring it up, but they say "couldn't win the cup until he joined a loaded team in Detroit". Still I bet these people would consider one of the best of all time. They just probably think Roy is better, maybe Brodeur. He's still in the eyes of even his biggest detractors he's one of the best ever. He would still probably be with no cup, since the detractors now use his cup with the loaded Detroit against him anyway.

Meanwhile Niemi is widely considered one of the worst goalies to win a cup. He was replaced next year with the Sharks. If I'm Hasek and Detroit never happens and I look back at my career, I tell my kids and my grandkids about my career, I have more pride and self fulfillment than Niemi.

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11-23-2012, 08:24 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
99 playing on ANY TEAM that wasn't the HHOF Oilers didn't win a Cup. He played on plenty of good teams and still only got close once.
And if he played on teams that weren't the HHOF Oilers and put up these stats, he'd still likely be considered the greatest ever.

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11-23-2012, 09:58 PM
  #304
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Actually a tough question, depending on the ego, and depending on whether or not the Hart trophies come with the guarantee of no Cup rings - despite being the "best"/most valuable player in the league so often. I mean, there are two 5-time Hart winners in history, and both managed to get their hands on multiple Cups along the way. Some guys will go the team route and answer "Cup", but 5 Hart trophies basically gets you your own booth/exhibit in the Hall of Fame. Winning a single Cup gets your name engraved in tiny letters somewhere on the trophy (and a cool ring, I guess). How/where do you want to be remembered?


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 11-23-2012 at 10:18 PM.
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11-23-2012, 10:12 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Why can't the guy without the Hart's be a great player? Yzerman never won a Hart but he's one of the greatest centers of all time. I don't think he'd trade his Cups for 5 Harts, in fact i don't even think he'd trade one cup for the Harts. Stanley Cup all the way. I don't know how the question has been so warped that people have put artificial limitations on the "Cup winners" option by comparing them to Darren Rumble/ instead of a guy like Yzerman.
Because that's the argument the OP was originally making...

little to no impact 3rd/4th liner with a cup over a "GOAT" player with 5 harts..

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11-23-2012, 10:14 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Bure All Day View Post
Call me what you want, I'm the best in the world and that's all that matters to me
BRO, you got da taste in dem ladies, g. I think Dianna blocked me cause of how much times I've commented on her beauty.

5 harts.

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11-23-2012, 10:58 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by kingsholygrail View Post
If watching the awards after Boston beat Vancouver was any indication, I'd say winning the cup is priority.
This times 100. There's some pretty ridiculous opinions being thrown in the favor for 5 hart trophies. Players will tell you a different story.

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11-23-2012, 11:07 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
This times 100. There's some pretty ridiculous opinions being thrown in the favor for 5 hart trophies. Players will tell you a different story.
Yep, because people that disagree with you have ridiculous opinions. This is not a matter of how someone will feel when they win a cup or when they win a Hart. I'm sure you're happier when you're on the ice and win a cup than when you're at an awards ceremony. However, the Hart is not about coming up to the podium and giving a speech. It's a symbol of you being the best in the world for that year. 5 Harts are a symbol of you being one the very best ever. Sure if you look at it narrowly, "am I happier on the ice when the clock counts down and I won a cup" or "am I happier at an awards ceremony", sure you're happier with the cup. However, that's a very narrow minded judgement. We're looking in the macro. Would you rather be a 4th line grinder that wins a cup or one of best players ever? I'd be more satisfied with my career and my life if I were one of the best ever. Why is that a ridiculous argument? Because it disagrees with yours?

Edit: Also that was an opinion of a fan. Of course, watching the awards for the fan is not as important as winning the cup. We're fans of teams more than players.

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11-23-2012, 11:08 PM
  #309
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For any of you who voted 5 Harts over the Cup, would you rather watch your team win the Stanley Cup or have a player win 5 Hart Trophies in his career, but your team never wins the Cup while he's on the team?

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11-23-2012, 11:09 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
5 Harts pretty easy.

Money and being recognized as an NHL legend is better than winning a cup as an infrequent player. Besides, with 5 Harts, chances are you won a cup in during your prime.
How much money does Brad Richards have?

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11-23-2012, 11:10 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
For any of you who voted 5 Harts over the Cup, would you rather watch your team win the Stanley Cup or have a player win 5 Hart Trophies in his career, but your team never wins the Cup while he's on the team?
As a fan, the cup.

As a player, the 5 harts. Only 2 other guys have done that. Many nobodies have their name on the cup and are long forgotten.

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11-23-2012, 11:10 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
For any of you who voted 5 Harts over the Cup, would you rather watch your team win the Stanley Cup or have a player win 5 Hart Trophies in his career, but your team never wins the Cup while he's on the team?
No offense, but that's a stupid question. Considering we're fans of the team and not the player, the answer is pretty easy. If I watch a 5 time Hart trophy winner, he is the one that's one of the best ever, not me.

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11-23-2012, 11:10 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Express View Post
Would you rather be Trent Dilfer or Dan Marino?
Ask Dan Marino what his biggest regret in football is, what eats at him knowing he'll never get to do as a player?

http://www.findbiography.org/other-a...ers/dan-marino
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Marino’s biggest regret is not having a Super Bowl win.

When he retired:

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Marino said he met with Wannstedt twice and that the coach never suggested he retire, but it was Minnesota coach Dennis Green who had been most adamant about extending Marino's career. Green tempted Marino with the chance to pass the Vikings to a Super Bowl with the help of Pro Bowl receivers Randy Moss and Cris Carter.

"That was the burning desire," Marino said. "Every time I talked to Dennis Green or any of the other coaches around the league . . . that was the only reason really to continue to play; did I feel that I was going to have a chance to win a Super Bowl?

"That has been a dream of mine my whole career and I am not going to have that chance.

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11-23-2012, 11:13 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
Ask Dan Marino what his biggest regret in football is, what eats at him knowing he'll never get to do as a player?

http://www.findbiography.org/other-a...ers/dan-marino



When he retired:
So you're comparing being Marino with a Super Bowl trophy or being Marino without a Super Bowl trophy. Now let's ask Marino if his regret not being a 3rd WR on a Super Bowl winning team.

Edit: Even then, a 3rd WR can easily have more impact than a 4th liner in hockey. See Steve Smith on the game winning drive in Super Bowl XLII.

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11-23-2012, 11:14 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
So you're comparing being Marino with a Super Bowl trophy or being Marino without a Super Bowl trophy. Now let's ask Marino if his regret not being a 3rd WR on a Super Bowl winning team.
Why is the argument considering the Cup winner an insignificant player?

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11-23-2012, 11:15 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
No offense, but that's a stupid question. Considering we're fans of the team and not the player, the answer is pretty easy. If I watch a 5 time Hart trophy winner, he is the one that's one of the best ever, not me.
Well then I wouldn't want you on my team if I know you won't help us win the Cup. I'm sure the players know that.

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11-23-2012, 11:16 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
Well then I wouldn't want you on my team if I know you won't help us win the Cup. I'm sure the players know that.
Why is the 5 time Hart winner not helping win the cup? What if he's on a ****** team?

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11-23-2012, 11:20 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Yep, because people that disagree with you have ridiculous opinions. This is not a matter of how someone will feel when they win a cup or when they win a Hart. I'm sure you're happier when you're on the ice and win a cup than when you're at an awards ceremony. However, the Hart is not about coming up to the podium and giving a speech. It's a symbol of you being the best in the world for that year. 5 Harts are a symbol of you being one the very best ever. Sure if you look at it narrowly, "am I happier on the ice when the clock counts down and I won a cup" or "am I happier at an awards ceremony", sure you're happier with the cup. However, that's a very narrow minded judgement. We're looking in the macro. Would you rather be a 4th line grinder that wins a cup or one of best players ever? I'd be more satisfied with my career and my life if I were one of the best ever. Why is that a ridiculous argument? Because it disagrees with yours?

Edit: Also that was an opinion of a fan. Of course, watching the awards for the fan is not as important as winning the cup. We're fans of teams more than players.
It's ridiculous because putting the argument into a convenient bubble ( a 4th line scrub winning the cup instead of a key or top player ) is stupid. You can be a top player, never win a hart, but still have a Cup.

I can guarantee you, the vast majority of professional team sport athletes pursue the ultimate prize and not the individual accomplishment. While it's great to win trophies, it's not what you play for. If you win 5 Harts, sure you'd be considered one of the best of all time. but you'd also be looked at as a choker and your career accomplishments will seem pale in comparison because you couldn't be a part of a team that got the job done. Why do you think it was such a big deal when Ray Bourque finally won the Cup? Do you think he would have retired happy?

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11-23-2012, 11:23 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
Why is the argument considering the Cup winner an insignificant player?
First of all, it's been mentioned many times that originally THAT was the question. Don't know what happened, guess it was edited. Second, if winning the cup is so important why not use an insignificant player as the comparison? I guess then winning the cup is not that important, if you need to use Brad Richards to make your point. Third, in your example of Brad Richards, I'd still take the 5 time Hart winner. It'll be more tempting because, no doubt I'd be proud of my Conn Smythe. It's still harder and more impressive to be a legend 5 time Hart winner than a good first liner 1 time Conn Smythe winner.

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11-23-2012, 11:33 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
It's ridiculous because putting the argument into a convenient bubble ( a 4th line scrub winning the cup instead of a key or top player ) is stupid. You can be a top player, never win a hart, but still have a Cup.

I can guarantee you, the vast majority of professional team sport athletes pursue the ultimate prize and not the individual accomplishment. While it's great to win trophies, it's not what you play for. If you win 5 Harts, sure you'd be considered one of the best of all time. but you'd also be looked at as a choker and your career accomplishments will seem pale in comparison because you couldn't be a part of a team that got the job done. Why do you think it was such a big deal when Ray Bourque finally won the Cup? Do you think he would have retired happy?
Do you see anything wrong with what was bolded there? YOU'D be considered a choker because your TEAM couldn't get the job done. You don't choose your team. Riddle me this. How highly is Hasek regarded as a goaltender? Why? Because he won a cup in 02 with a loaded Detroit team? Or because he won 6 Vezinas and 2 Harts? When the conversation goes to the best goaltender in the NHL history, Hasek is on the short list because of his cupless career with Buffalo. Instead of calling him a choker, most people feel bad for him that he never had a team in front of him. If he ended his career in Buffalo without a cup, people would look at him almost identically and people would say "too bad they never put a team around him". Now this is a goalie. He plays 60 minutes a game and plays the most important position in the sport. Imagine a center who plays what 20 minutes a game. Who will honestly call him a choker if he has 5 Harts but plays on a weak team like Hasek.

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11-23-2012, 11:41 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Do you see anything wrong with what was bolded there? YOU'D be considered a choker because your TEAM couldn't get the job done. You don't choose your team. Riddle me this. How highly is Hasek regarded as a goaltender? Why? Because he won a cup in 02 with a loaded Detroit team? Or because he won 6 Vezinas and 2 Harts? When the conversation goes to the best goaltender in the NHL history, Hasek is on the short list because of his cupless career with Buffalo. Instead of calling him a choker, most people feel bad for him that he never had a team in front of him. If he ended his career in Buffalo without a cup, people would look at him almost identically and people would say "too bad they never put a team around him". Now this is a goalie. He plays 60 minutes a game and plays the most important position in the sport. Imagine a center who plays what 20 minutes a game. Who will honestly call him a choker if he has 5 Harts but plays on a weak team like Hasek.
Fans want to see the best player(s) in the world rise up in the clutch. That's when it's time to show off their dominance. It also makes a difference if said Hart trophy winner is performing in the playoffs. Look at Joe Thornton: dominant regular season performer, but plays under his ability in the playoffs. Fans see him as a choker.

Do you think Hasek would have felt his career complete if he kept playing and didn't win the Cup despite all of his regular season trophies? You don't have to answer that because I already know it.

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11-23-2012, 11:44 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
Fans want to see the best player(s) in the world rise up in the clutch. That's when it's time to show off their dominance. It also makes a difference if said Hart trophy winner is performing in the playoffs. Look at Joe Thornton: dominant regular season performer, but plays under his ability in the playoffs. Fans see him as a choker.

Do you think Hasek would have felt his career complete if he kept playing and didn't win the Cup despite all of his regular season trophies? You don't have to answer that because I already know it.
Once again, that's not the question. If you're asking me would I rather be a Hasek with a cup or without, well duh. Would Hasek, rather be Niemi, if he didn't win a cup? I somehow very much doubt that. Now he may be jealous of the cup, but I doubt he trades places with him.

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11-23-2012, 11:48 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
So you're comparing being Marino with a Super Bowl trophy or being Marino without a Super Bowl trophy. Now let's ask Marino if his regret not being a 3rd WR on a Super Bowl winning team.

Edit: Even then, a 3rd WR can easily have more impact than a 4th liner in hockey. See Steve Smith on the game winning drive in Super Bowl XLII.
No, I was asked if I could be Trent Dilfer, a guy who had a decent career but has a Super Bowl ring, or Dan Marino, a guy who has all the individual accomplishments one could want but with no ring. I pointed out that being Dan Marino may seem great and while he admitted to being proud of his accomplishments, he ultimately failed in getting the ultimate trophy. I'd rather be Trent Dilfer, a guy who went out, tried his best, had it all come together one magical year and retire than be Dan Marino, be looked at as one of the best ever but was a key part in one frustrated failure after another.

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11-23-2012, 11:54 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Once again, that's not the question. If you're asking me would I rather be a Hasek with a cup or without, well duh. Would Hasek, rather be Niemi, if he didn't win a cup? I somehow very much doubt that. Now he may be jealous of the cup, but I doubt he trades places with him.
He probably would be. Spend some time around pro athletes and you'll get the real answer to this question.

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11-23-2012, 11:58 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
No, I was asked if I could be Trent Dilfer, a guy who had a decent career but has a Super Bowl ring, or Dan Marino, a guy who has all the individual accomplishments one could want but with no ring. I pointed out that being Dan Marino may seem great and while he admitted to being proud of his accomplishments, he ultimately failed in getting the ultimate trophy. I'd rather be Trent Dilfer, a guy who went out, tried his best, had it all come together one magical year and retire than be Dan Marino, be looked at as one of the best ever but was a key part in one frustrated failure after another.
Well I had an argument about this before and you may be surprised my response was a lot warmer towards Dilfer than my arguments in this thread would let you believe. However this thread made me think how ridiculous that was. Dan Marino is a legend. He was the equivalent of someone that set records in a relatively low scoring era in the NHL that were just barely beaten in the equivalent of the 1980s NHL. Dan Marino all things being equal is probably the best QB ever. Trent Dilfer is a punchline. Whenever someone wants to give an example of a ****** QB winning a Super Bowl they use Trent Dilfer. Dan Marino's biggest regret may be not winning a ring, but it's not not being Trent Dilfer.

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