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Would you rather win 1 Stanley Cup or 5 Hart Trophies if you were a player?

View Poll Results: Would you rather win
1 Stanley Cup 163 48.95%
5 Hart Trophies 170 51.05%
Voters: 333. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-24-2012, 01:02 AM
  #326
SnowblindNYR
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
He probably would be. Spend some time around pro athletes and you'll get the real answer to this question.
How much time have you spent with pro athletes? And I mean Pro-athletes. Not when you were 10 wishing that you were scoring a game winning goal in the SC finals. Not in your beer league. If pro athletes cared so much about winning, why is that they always seem to follow the money? How often do you see players take a discount to go to a cup contender? They may take a home town discount if their family doesn't want to move. That's different. But, how many players actually switch teams and specifically take less to go to a contender? It happens, but usually those players are older, already established, and have a lot of money. Even then look at all the players that went for a retirement check to ****** Rangers teams back in the day.

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11-24-2012, 01:04 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
Fans want to see the best player(s) in the world rise up in the clutch. That's when it's time to show off their dominance. It also makes a difference if said Hart trophy winner is performing in the playoffs. Look at Joe Thornton: dominant regular season performer, but plays under his ability in the playoffs. Fans see him as a choker.
Do you think Hasek would have felt his career complete if he kept playing and didn't win the Cup despite all of his regular season trophies? You don't have to answer that because I already know it.
Which fans? the ones that don't watch games?

Sure he'd want a cup, but agreed with the other poster that if he had to trade every single one of his personal achievements away, all those dominant regular seasons to have an average 6-10 year career as a backup goalie with a cup, I highly doubt he would do it.

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Old
11-24-2012, 02:22 AM
  #328
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Winning 5 Harts in the modern league would rival Gretzky's 9. (I'd argue it's a more difficult feat)

I'll take the 5 Harts

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Old
11-24-2012, 04:13 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
It's ridiculous because putting the argument into a convenient bubble ( a 4th line scrub winning the cup instead of a key or top player ) is stupid. You can be a top player, never win a hart, but still have a Cup.
But that wasn't what the OP was asking...

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11-24-2012, 04:29 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Why is the 5 time Hart winner not helping win the cup? What if he's on a ****** team?
See that's the difference between guys like Alexei Kovalev and Mats Sundin. Kovalev wanted it more whereas Sundin didn't care. That's why Kovalev is a Stanley Cup Champion (the greatest honor in world history) and Sundin never was.

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Old
11-24-2012, 04:34 AM
  #331
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Sounds mean but the 12th line guy with his name on the cup probably trades places in a heartbeat with the 5 time Hart Winner. That is the difference of I don't know 100 million plus over your career. Not everything is about money but that is enough to make this answer easy for me.

Like others have pointed out chances are a 5 time winner of the Hart should be winning at least one cup over their career.

I also would ask you, would you rather be a HHOF guy or win one cup? I think being in the HHOF is more special.


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Old
11-24-2012, 04:38 AM
  #332
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No, I was asked if I could be Trent Dilfer, a guy who had a decent career but has a Super Bowl ring, or Dan Marino, a guy who has all the individual accomplishments one could want but with no ring. I pointed out that being Dan Marino may seem great and while he admitted to being proud of his accomplishments, he ultimately failed in getting the ultimate trophy. I'd rather be Trent Dilfer, a guy who went out, tried his best, had it all come together one magical year and retire than be Dan Marino, be looked at as one of the best ever but was a key part in one frustrated failure after another.
Let's be clear on Trent Dilfer. The Ravens didn't re-sign him after winning the Superbowl and he became the backup QB for Seattle for 4 years. Started 1 year with Cleveland and did bad. Went to San Francisco was the backup for 2 years. In the second year he started a few games and got a concussion ending his career.

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Old
11-24-2012, 01:05 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by sky04 View Post
Because that's the argument the OP was originally making...

little to no impact 3rd/4th liner with a cup over a "GOAT" player with 5 harts..
Not on the op i read the past few days. The last edit was 8 minutes after his original post, and by a mod, so i think it is people (like you) on this thread who have dramatically changed the parameters of the question to be 4th liner vs Goat, as opposed to simply Cup champ vs 5 time Hart winner. A championship is the ultimate goal in any team sport, only the very worst teammates i have ever had would say otherwise.

I would take the 5 Harts over being Travis Moen, but that wasn't the question and is an extreme circumstance with other considerations (like earnings, length of career, ect...) Dionne only won 2 Pearsons and never a Hart but he's one of the greatest ever, and was more prolific than Lafleur, yet his career is not given the recognition it deserves due to his inability to hoist a cup. I think you underestimate the significance of a cup. Team success also has an effect of personal success, i almost guarentee if Montreal had taken Dionne and not Lafleur, than Dionne would be remebered much better and have a couple of Harts to his name and Lafleur much less fondly.


Last edited by Eskimo44: 11-24-2012 at 01:16 PM.
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Old
11-24-2012, 01:06 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Not on the op i read the past few days.
Well if you're a "cup at all costs" guy, why wouldn't that work in the extreme situation of a 3rd/4th line guy? Maybe it's not cup at all costs then.

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Old
11-24-2012, 01:22 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Well if you're a "cup at all costs" guy, why wouldn't that work in the extreme situation of a 3rd/4th line guy? Maybe it's not cup at all costs then.
Are you kidding? Every player plays with a "cup at all costs" mentaility. In 06 Horcoff was our 1st line center and despite being a much better than average player he still tried to block a shot with his face. Is that not at all costs? Nobody said you have to give up as much possible personal success to win the cup, isn't passing on 5 Harts enough for you? Or is the cup winner even allowed to score goals now? This is assinine.

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Old
11-24-2012, 01:38 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Are you kidding? Every player plays with a "cup at all costs" mentaility. In 06 Horcoff was our 1st line center and despite being a much better than average player he still tried to block a shot with his face. Is that not at all costs? Nobody said you have to give up as much possible personal success to win the cup, isn't passing on 5 Harts enough for you? Or is the cup winner even allowed to score goals now? This is assinine.
That's not what I meant. I meant, if you're a guy that thinks that it's cup or nothing. Cup at all costs came out wrong. If you're one of the people that it's cup or nothing, then you should have no problem picking the cup winner even if it's a grinder. Meanwhile we get complaints about why does it have to be a grinder. I thought the cup was the only thing you play for. Of course it's a lot easier to pick Leetch's career, as he was a HOF D-man and won the Conn Smythe in 94. If you think it's cup or nothing you should pick the 4th liner too.

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Old
11-24-2012, 01:41 PM
  #337
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If I was a major contributor and not a guy that was a HS most of the year, I'd rather have the cup. 1 in 30 odds every year and your name gets immortalized on it in the end. Individual trophies are nice, but the name of the game is winning.

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11-24-2012, 01:43 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
If I was a major contributor and not a guy that was a HS most of the year, I'd rather have the cup. 1 in 30 odds every year and your name gets immortalized on it in the end. Individual trophies are nice, but the name of the game is winning.
I'm not sure why it being 1 in 30 odds every year actually is a reason to favor the cup. The question is not what's more realistic. The way I see it is that it's a negative that you have 1 in 30 odds every year. What are your odds of being a 5 time Hart winner? 1 in a few thousand?

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11-24-2012, 01:49 PM
  #339
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Hmm... I'm not sure when this forum turned into a Booze Discussion board, but I'm going to take it upon myself to turn it back to a Hockey Discussion board.

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Old
11-24-2012, 02:12 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
That's not what I meant. I meant, if you're a guy that thinks that it's cup or nothing. Cup at all costs came out wrong. If you're one of the people that it's cup or nothing, then you should have no problem picking the cup winner even if it's a grinder. Meanwhile we get complaints about why does it have to be a grinder. I thought the cup was the only thing you play for. Of course it's a lot easier to pick Leetch's career, as he was a HOF D-man and won the Conn Smythe in 94. If you think it's cup or nothing you should pick the 4th liner too.
Why is it cup or nothing? Because you say so? I'm aware of what you meant, my point was "at all costs" is rather subjective and doesn't need to mean little to no personal success. I'm the best defenseman on my team and i'm considered an all heart and do whatever it takes to win player, i play to win at all costs. The problem with picking a Cup with little to no personal success (e.g. i wouldn't make much money) is that it's so greedy, people have families. I couldn't take a Cup over setting up my family for generations, so the question is now much different and the cheif consideration has nothing to do with hockey. The reason at that point i would take the Harts over the Cup is for my family, not for hockey. Also a championship victory as a bit player who played 5 minutes every second game is obviously worth much less than being a key player on a winning cup team, so again different considerations. Look at it like this, we have two different questions in this debate and only one of them adhears to the op.

Question 1: Winning a cup as a bit player with little contribution to team success who did not make very much impact or money in his NHL career
or
5 Harts

Question 2: Winning a cup
or
5 Harts

Do you not understand how these are two different questions? In question 2 the parameters of personal success for the cup winner are left wide open (i.e. the player could still be exceptional, as in Yzerman). It seems to me question one was fabricated by various posters, and that the far less descript question 2 is what the op was asking. Imagine if i added parameters to the career of the 5 Hart winner like you have done, here's an example.

Question 3: Winning 5 Harts, but having no team success as you never made the playoffs during your career. You're team was always a bottom feeder.
vs
a Stanley Cup (and still possibly legendary career).

See it's just as easy for me to add a paramater of no team success as it is for you to add one of no personal success. But at the end of the day that's not the question the op was asking, the op's question was far more simple as (i.e question 2).

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Old
11-24-2012, 02:14 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
If I was a major contributor and not a guy that was a HS most of the year, I'd rather have the cup. 1 in 30 odds every year and your name gets immortalized on it in the end. Individual trophies are nice, but the name of the game is winning.
That's just it. Losing hurts more than winning a secondary award like the Hart can make up for. It's not as if it's debatable, the Stanley Cup is the most coveted trophy one can win in hockey ainec.

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Old
11-24-2012, 02:25 PM
  #342
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5 Harts puts you in the argument for a top 20 player of all time, I would much rather be on of the greatest of all time at the sport I love, then be a 3rd liner who played half as many seasons and was insignificant as a player.

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11-24-2012, 02:28 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Why is it cup or nothing? Because you say so? I'm aware of what you meant, my point was "at all costs" is rather subjective and doesn't need to mean little to no personal success. I'm the best defenseman on my team and i'm considered an all heart and do whatever it takes to win player, i play to win at all costs. The problem with picking a Cup with little to no personal success (e.g. i wouldn't make much money) is that it's so greedy, people have families. I couldn't take a Cup over setting up my family for generations, so the question is now much different and the cheif consideration has nothing to do with hockey. The reason at that point i would take the Harts over the Cup is for my family, not for hockey. Also a championship victory as a bit player who played 5 minutes every second game is obviously worth much less than being a key player on a winning cup team, so again different considerations. Look at it like this, we have two different questions in this debate and only one of them adhears to the op.

Question 1: Winning a cup as a bit player with little contribution to team success who did not make very much impact or money in his NHL career
or
5 Harts

Question 2: Winning a cup
or
5 Harts

Do you not understand how these are two different questions? In question 2 the parameters of personal success for the cup winner are left wide open (i.e. the player could still be exceptional, as in Yzerman). It seems to me question one was fabricated by various posters, and that the far less descript question 2 is what the op was asking. Imagine if i added parameters to the career of the 5 Hart winner like you have done, here's an example.

Question 3: Winning 5 Harts, but having no team success as you never made the playoffs during your career. You're team was always a bottom feeder.
vs
a Stanley Cup (and still possibly legendary career).

See it's just as easy for me to add a paramater of no team success as it is for you to add one of no personal success. But at the end of the day that's not the question the op was asking, the op's question was far more simple as (i.e question 2).
First of all, it's been mentioned many times that the original question was in fact a 3rd/4th line grinder. Second, I personally said money being equal I'll take the Hart winners. I'm not making up the "cup or nothing". You just quoted someone that said so in different words. The argument of most of the people in this thread is that the cup is all that's important. Hence, cup or nothing. If all money were equal, if you think that the cup is the only important thing then you should agree that you'd be happier as a 4th line guy winning the cup. Of course it's easy to pick Yzerman (though that's unfair since he has 3 cups) or Leetch. But then you're setting limits on how important a cup is to you. As for your parameters, how often do you see a guy whose team misses the playoffs win the Hart trophy, much less 5. That's not a realistic scenario.

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Old
11-24-2012, 02:58 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
If I was a major contributor and not a guy that was a HS most of the year, I'd rather have the cup. 1 in 30 odds every year and your name gets immortalized on it in the end. Individual trophies are nice, but the name of the game is winning.
and the individual awards is what 1 in 700? and your name gets immortalized on it also. so whats your point, it is easier to latch onto a good team and win a cup?

individual trophies means your name will be remembered as one of the best to ever play the game.

thornton might not ever win a cup, but his name will be going into the hall of fame for every one to see his accomplishments. while yes a player that won a cup as a 4th line grinder will get his name on the cup and be in the hall of fame forever, but i can guarantee that nobody will read the cup name by name and go oh look daddy joe blow remember how amazing he was because he won that one cup?

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Old
11-24-2012, 05:02 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
No, I was asked if I could be Trent Dilfer, a guy who had a decent career but has a Super Bowl ring, or Dan Marino, a guy who has all the individual accomplishments one could want but with no ring. I pointed out that being Dan Marino may seem great and while he admitted to being proud of his accomplishments, he ultimately failed in getting the ultimate trophy. I'd rather be Trent Dilfer, a guy who went out, tried his best, had it all come together one magical year and retire than be Dan Marino, be looked at as one of the best ever but was a key part in one frustrated failure after another.
Im not even sure If I would call his career decent. Trent Dilfer is considered to be one of the worst QBs ever to win a Super Bowl. Im not sure who would want that label.

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11-24-2012, 06:54 PM
  #346
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hockey players, since they were a kid, they dreamed of winning a stanley cup. Having an nhl career and not winning it is very dissapointing, it's like if all these years you played were for nothing. Hart trophys are good, but you don't play to win these.
After saying this, I will take the stanley cup over the 5 hart trophies.

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11-24-2012, 07:07 PM
  #347
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Im not even sure If I would call his career decent. Trent Dilfer is considered to be one of the worst QBs ever to win a Super Bowl. Im not sure who would want that label.
Yes nobody ever would want to be remembered as a Super Bowl winning QB.

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11-24-2012, 07:08 PM
  #348
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Originally Posted by Takashi View Post
hockey players, since they were a kid, they dreamed of winning a stanley cup. Having an nhl career and not winning it is very dissapointing, it's like if all these years you played were for nothing. Hart trophys are good, but you don't play to win these.
After saying this, I will take the stanley cup over the 5 hart trophies.
This is it.

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11-24-2012, 07:11 PM
  #349
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Yes nobody ever would want to be remembered as a Super Bowl winning QB.
But nobody actually remembers Dilfer as that. When people think of that Ravens team they think "That defense was so dominant they didnt even need a good QB to win". People dont think of Dilfer in a good light at all...

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11-24-2012, 07:14 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Takashi View Post
hockey players, since they were a kid, they dreamed of winning a stanley cup. Having an nhl career and not winning it is very dissapointing, it's like if all these years you played were for nothing. Hart trophys are good, but you don't play to win these.
After saying this, I will take the stanley cup over the 5 hart trophies.
that is not entirely true, every kid since they were younger dreamed of scoring the game winning goal on the cup winning team.

no kid grew up dreaming of being a plug on a cup winning team, they all dreamed of being the star of that team.

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