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Better Deterent Heavy weight or Solid PP

View Poll Results: Better Deterent: Heavy weight or Solid PP
Heavyweight fighter 10 23.81%
Solid Powerplay 32 76.19%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-22-2012, 12:18 AM
  #1
Mctopchowda
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Better Deterent Heavy weight or Solid PP

Which would be more effective at deterring late/dirty hits

Heavy weight fighter than can pummel people or a very good power play

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11-22-2012, 03:07 AM
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Zoidberg Jesus
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That's a plot of every team's opportunities versus their percentage over the past 5 years. If players took into account how good their opponents' PP was when taking penalties, you would expect to see a negative correlation between a team's percentage and how many opportunities they get. Looking at that graph, there doesn't seem to be any correlation whatsoever. Having a solid PP might be a better way to deal with or benefit from a dirty hit, but it doesn't seem to have any value as a deterrent.

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11-22-2012, 03:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Which would be more effective at deterring late/dirty hits

Heavy weight fighter than can pummel people or a very good power play
Yes.

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11-22-2012, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post


That's a plot of every team's opportunities versus their percentage over the past 5 years. If players took into account how good their opponents' PP was when taking penalties, you would expect to see a negative correlation between a team's percentage and how many opportunities they get. Looking at that graph, there doesn't seem to be any correlation whatsoever. Having a solid PP might be a better way to deal with or benefit from a dirty hit, but it doesn't seem to have any value as a deterrent.
I am not sure what you are trying to say. Penalties do not equal cheap shots.

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11-22-2012, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post


That's a plot of every team's opportunities versus their percentage over the past 5 years. If players took into account how good their opponents' PP was when taking penalties, you would expect to see a negative correlation between a team's percentage and how many opportunities they get. Looking at that graph, there doesn't seem to be any correlation whatsoever. Having a solid PP might be a better way to deal with or benefit from a dirty hit, but it doesn't seem to have any value as a deterrent.
Is there a plot of # of dirty hits against a team with a heavyweight vs a team without one? I don't think there would be a negative correlation there either, so in the end, I'd rather take the option that helps you win games.

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11-22-2012, 04:10 AM
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Bure All Day
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post


That's a plot of every team's opportunities versus their percentage over the past 5 years. If players took into account how good their opponents' PP was when taking penalties, you would expect to see a negative correlation between a team's percentage and how many opportunities they get. Looking at that graph, there doesn't seem to be any correlation whatsoever. Having a solid PP might be a better way to deal with or benefit from a dirty hit, but it doesn't seem to have any value as a deterrent.
This graph makes sense, if having a good powerplay was a deterrent to illegal hits, then the graph would display having most of the high % PPs getting lower amounts of opportunities, and conversely low % teams with many opportunities..

Unfortunately, this doesn't just account for illegal hits, it accounts for all penalties so it isn't valid IMO

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11-22-2012, 11:20 AM
  #7
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I say the PP, but only because that shrinks the ice time of the certain type of player more likely to commit a dirty hit. But in general, I don't think there is a deterrent for anger, stupidity, or varying reaction times.

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11-22-2012, 11:26 AM
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A fighter that can play. However, Steve MacIntyre would make anyone think twice about doing something stupid. I have seen fighters deter a lot of physical play at games.

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11-22-2012, 12:32 PM
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I was afraid people wouldn't get it...

Basically, if a good PP is a deterrent to illegal hits, then it must be a deterrent to other types of penalties as well. Logically, if a player is going to decide that raising his elbow going into a hit isn't worth it when the other team's got a high PP%, he'd also be more careful about keeping his stick away from his opponents' skates, or not grabbing him long enough to draw a holding, or making sure you're not making your hit too late. The reverse would also be true - players would be less conservative against teams who struggle on the PP. You would see a clear trend, but there obviously isn't one. Players commit penalties of all types just as often against teams with good percentages and bad ones.

That said, I don't think enforcers make much of a difference either, and I think the reason is the same. Hockey is such a fast paced game, there's no time to think about these sort of consequences. In those split seconds when a player is lining up a hit, I guarantee you he's not thinking about the other team's PP% or who he'll have to fight if he blows the guy up. He's thinking about firing up his team. The only effect deterrent is to teach kids from a young age that dirty, dangerous hits are not ok, and that they need to respect their fellow players.

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11-22-2012, 01:54 PM
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In theory, a solid power play should be a bigger deterrent.

In practice, "in theory" is never the same as "in practice".

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Old
11-22-2012, 02:16 PM
  #11
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Neither, there will always be someone to do something stupid.

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11-22-2012, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterSurge View Post
A fighter that can play. However, Steve MacIntyre would make anyone think twice about doing something stupid. I have seen fighters deter a lot of physical play at games.
Like a Shawn Thornton? Yeah that makes sense.

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11-22-2012, 03:24 PM
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Like a Shawn Thornton? Yeah that makes sense.
Thornton, Asham, Engelland, Clowe, and guys like that.

Example: Jordan Lane had been running around all game and was throwing cheap shots. Adam Ross steps in and Lane does nothing for the rest of the game.


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11-22-2012, 03:27 PM
  #14
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Is a guy like Marchand really going to think twice about taking out your best player with a cheapshot? No goon is going to go after him, without risking a penalty, which ends up benefiting his team anyway. If his team loses a playoff game, because his boneheaded play resulted in a PP goal, he'll think twice about doing something stupid.

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Old
11-23-2012, 04:11 PM
  #15
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I'll tell you what...nobody took stupid cheap-shots against his teammates when Tony Twist was in the lineup.

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Old
11-23-2012, 04:21 PM
  #16
SnowblindNYR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bure All Day View Post
This graph makes sense, if having a good powerplay was a deterrent to illegal hits, then the graph would display having most of the high % PPs getting lower amounts of opportunities, and conversely low % teams with many opportunities..

Unfortunately, this doesn't just account for illegal hits, it accounts for all penalties so it isn't valid IMO
Maybe a team with a higher PP % has more speed and causes more penalties called. Therefore, the penalties called are more of the hooking variety than the roughing or boarding or elbowing.

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11-23-2012, 04:24 PM
  #17
SnowblindNYR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
I was afraid people wouldn't get it...

Basically, if a good PP is a deterrent to illegal hits, then it must be a deterrent to other types of penalties as well. Logically, if a player is going to decide that raising his elbow going into a hit isn't worth it when the other team's got a high PP%, he'd also be more careful about keeping his stick away from his opponents' skates, or not grabbing him long enough to draw a holding, or making sure you're not making your hit too late. The reverse would also be true - players would be less conservative against teams who struggle on the PP. You would see a clear trend, but there obviously isn't one. Players commit penalties of all types just as often against teams with good percentages and bad ones.

That said, I don't think enforcers make much of a difference either, and I think the reason is the same. Hockey is such a fast paced game, there's no time to think about these sort of consequences. In those split seconds when a player is lining up a hit, I guarantee you he's not thinking about the other team's PP% or who he'll have to fight if he blows the guy up. He's thinking about firing up his team. The only effect deterrent is to teach kids from a young age that dirty, dangerous hits are not ok, and that they need to respect their fellow players.
Or maybe the team with the good PP is good drawing penalties because of their speed and skill, thus creating dangerous situations.

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11-23-2012, 04:41 PM
  #18
Bure All Day
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Maybe a team with a higher PP % has more speed and causes more penalties called. Therefore, the penalties called are more of the hooking variety than the roughing or boarding or elbowing.
Exactly my point...

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