HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Non-Sports > Political Discussion - "on-topic & unmoderated"
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Political Discussion - "on-topic & unmoderated" Rated PG13, unmoderated but threads must stay on topic - that means you can flame each other all you want as long as it's legal

Piracy- one event in Finland.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-22-2012, 07:15 AM
  #1
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 13,298
vCash: 50
Piracy- one event in Finland.

This has been on the news from yesterday. I wrote the incident in English below.

Edit: Here is a link to Torrentfreak.com about the same incident. http://torrentfreak.com/police-raid-...laptop-121122/

http://www.facebook.com/aki.w.nylund...51139041245079

"Ok everyone, the following is long story about what has happened.
It all started about a year a go, my daughter asked me where she could find some songs by Finnish artist named Chisu her favorite singer. She wanted to hear the songs before buying the album, for which she had been saving money for. She was still a bit short on cash and really wanted to hear the songs. Many of her friends already had the record, she told me.
I was just about to take off to work at that Satruday evening, as usual, a bit late already. So, i quickly showed her how to look songs on internet by search engines. Next day my daughter came to me, feeling sorry that she found some songs but they did not work. Apparently something was even downloaded to her computer. I felt bad for that little girl, so we took off to the local supermarket and i bought for my girl that Finnish number 1 artist's CD.
After that, last spring, i got an e-mail from some lawyer, who announced to me that i have to pay a fee (600€) for distributing audio-file's in domain called Pirate-Bay. The lawyer also demanded that i sign a non-disclosure agreement about the payment and everything involved. At first I just ignored the e-mail as a typical "Nigerian Prince" letter. But after I checked up some background about this lawyer, i felt necessary to answer him. Basically i just asked, "what the **** is this about?".
Well, the response was pretty forward. Pay 600, sign the non-disclosure or he will be pressing charges. After this it came to my knowledge that this all was about my daughter downloading the songs from this artist Chisu (songs that were not even working) and that the songs were actually a "trap" made by record company, police and internet operator. I made a response to them what i suspected that might have happened. (my daughter downloading etc etc.) I attached files in to the response mail, including a picture of Chisu's legally bought CD and ticket's to her gig which we were about to attend with my daughter.
Of course i also used my verbal skills about how amazed i was about what happened and i thought it was unjust to try to cash up on people like that.
I refused to pay the 600€ only on the basis that my 9-year old daughter had downloaded, in intend to buy the album, few songs to listen up. What i did offer was a few cold beers from my bar if the artist and lawyer want's to come and visit.
After that i got no response and just assumed that matter was closed and they would have common sense to put their energy and resources on catching some "real" criminals. This thing still haunted me a bit, so i went to dig some more info about it. Turns out that they had downloaded the songs up BY THEMSELVES, and were just sitting and waiting to someone to take the bait. My daughter and 82 different IP-adresses had gotten the same letters and demands. 600€ and shut up.
This morning i realized how ****ed up things were, when two finance-cops (not sure if that is the right term) rang my doorbell at 8:17 AM with warrants. They were demanding my daughters computer. I was still rubbing sleep out from my eyes and asked the officers if this might be a good time for me to call my lawyer. They told me that it would be useless, since the outcome of that morning would still be the same. The computer is going to the station with them.
(This download was over a year a go!)
Before leaving one of the officers said to me this: "If you just pay the amount, which to our knowledge is less than 4 figures, they will "drop their gloves". So it would be easier for everyone if i just pay up".
At that point my jaw just dropped to the floor and i was not sure if a were sleeping or awake!?
The police had just adviced me, that if i empty my wallet and keep my family in hunger for the next two weeks, it would be more inconvenient for everyone.
After that they took my daughter Winnie-The Pooh covered laptop and walked away with it when my 9-year old girl was standing watching.
What the F...ck, is this how it is done?! Basically i could avoid injustice if i would skip Christmas (600€)? What should i do? Please tell me, if some of you readers have any ideas. I feel like my every single cell is screaming that i have to finish this, there is no way that this is happening in a civilized justice country like Finland. Or is it?

Everyone who knows me also knows that i have been supporting musicians and artists in these difficult times when they have had troubles getting gig's. I pay fair and square everytime for my artists. I appreciate their hard work and i show it too. I pay in advance if necessary, i have NEVER let any artist in my house leave with empty stomach and/or without pay. I have offered to take them in my house after gig if they got no place to crash. On top of that i have always pais for Gramex, teosto etc. in time
Every single CD I own is original, may have said that it is dumb to pay, since i can get it free from internet, but i have kept my principle. Artist should have his/her's pay. This has nothing to do with this particular incident, but i am starting to lose faith in this system.

I guess i will see you in court, even if it sounds ridiculous. Me and my daughter are heading for the dark side of the law. You would think that police has better things to do in these difficult times than run around getting 9 year old's laptops.

-Quilty?"


Last edited by TAnnala: 11-22-2012 at 03:03 PM.
TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 07:19 AM
  #2
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 13,298
vCash: 50
So, any thoughts?

Finnish piracy law's are very hard to understand without really looking in to it. For me at least. I think most feel the same since it is so hard to have some kind of comparison for it.

Hopefully the laws will get more clear and the 600€ blackmailing will stop. I have no idea how many Finnish people have already paid up that money. Since they have to sign the "silent paper".

I do agree that piracy is a problem but i don't agree it to be handled this way.

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 08:18 AM
  #3
Ugmo
Registered User
 
Ugmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Country: Austria
Posts: 10,839
vCash: 500
Well I'll give it a go: this is thuggish behavior on the part of the record company. And pretty freakishly unfortunate that a guy got caught in the dragnet who spends so much time, money and energy supporting artists.

That being said, surely he knows that downloading music is illegal. So he showed his daughter how to do it and then when she gets caught he plays ignorant and argues that his family shouldn't be held responsible because his daughter is only 9 and couldn't have known any better.

But yes, it's reprehensible behavior on the part of the record companies, and it will hasten their decline.

Ugmo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 12:26 PM
  #4
Everlasting
Registered User
 
Everlasting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Somwhere in time
Country: Sweden
Posts: 4,608
vCash: 500
If i were him, i would have charged the recordlabel head on and i would have maked sure they took some damage. For starters, that story is good enough to make it to a newspaper. Another idea would be to contact Chisu herself. Im sure she doesnt want this to happen to her 9 year old fans. That could make them drop their case. If not, there are more ways to hurt them.

Besides, is it even ilegal to download those files in Finland? I mean, they were not her songs or have i read your text wrong?

Everlasting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 12:41 PM
  #5
guest1467
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 24,824
vCash: 500
It's ******** laws and procedures.

But I don't have any sympathy. People need to start protecting their computers from governments better. Encrypt your hard-drive, install a virtual box, tor and ubuntu and anonymously use your computer.

guest1467 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 02:04 PM
  #6
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 13,298
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everlasting View Post
If i were him, i would have charged the recordlabel head on and i would have maked sure they took some damage. For starters, that story is good enough to make it to a newspaper. Another idea would be to contact Chisu herself. Im sure she doesnt want this to happen to her 9 year old fans. That could make them drop their case. If not, there are more ways to hurt them.

Besides, is it even ilegal to download those files in Finland? I mean, they were not her songs or have i read your text wrong?
I think they were corrupted files about the artist's songs. This thing has blown pretty big now. It has been on the Helsingin Sanomat online magazine and several others.

Chisu has already made her statement. She does not want to sue her fans, but her hands are tied since she has signed a deal with the agency.

It is getting interesting. We will see if something is going to change. At least the non-disclosure terms have to change. We will never know how many people are intimidated to pay if they can't speak up.

Also a Finnish TV-station called Moon-TV has made a tweet about TTVK (the agency that gives these threats).

https://twitter.com/MoonTVfi/status/271589215245049858

Translate: Moon-TV's CEO's open letter to TTVK: "We wont join your agency. **** you!"

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 02:11 PM
  #7
The Moose
Registered User
 
The Moose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 5,455
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
It's ******** laws and procedures.

But I don't have any sympathy. People need to start protecting their computers from governments better. Encrypt your hard-drive, install a virtual box, tor and ubuntu and anonymously use your computer.
If you don't use a proxy, you are not anonymous, the ISP can easily identify you by IP. I don't think using Ubuntu or Win or any other os makes a difference.

The Moose is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 02:32 PM
  #8
EmeticDonut
Registered User
 
EmeticDonut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,840
vCash: 1700
It's also worth noting that TTVK is not an official state agency, but a non-profit organization who looks after the copyrights of its members.

EmeticDonut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 02:49 PM
  #9
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 13,298
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmeticDonut View Post
It's also worth noting that TTVK is not an official state agency, but a non-profit organization who looks after the copyrights of its members.
Yes, true. I forgot to mention this. Thanks.

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 03:00 PM
  #10
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 13,298
vCash: 50
http://torrentfreak.com/police-raid-...laptop-121122/

Here is something in English with more comprehensive writing. My English is a bit awkward.

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 05:30 PM
  #11
kov
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,440
vCash: 500
So I looked into this a little bit, and my research left me shocked and appalled.




How can anybody like this Chisu's crappy music?

kov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 06:00 PM
  #12
MrAlfie
 
MrAlfie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Rehab
Country: Spain
Posts: 5,249
vCash: 500
Happened to me long time ago in Germany.

A friend of mine asked me to download an album (from a ****** band nonetheless).

I obliged and did him this favor.
A few months later a lawyer send us a letter asking us to pay 500 Euros and sign some papers pretty much saying I will stop "distributing" the music.
Well I paid and stopped hearing from then. Needless to say I never downloaded anything again.

But here is the thing, and I'm very blurry when it comes to German,Finnish and let alone American copyright law. But I seem to remember that the actual download was not prohibited but merely the upload/distribution. So going by that, don't they commit a criminal act themselves by uploading those corrupt bait files?
I'm sure some law nut knows much more about this than I can ever dream of.


Edit:

I do seem to remember a certain Lawyer called Gravenreuth, who pretty much made a living of baiting people into this. He ended up chewing off too much than he could handle and tried to scam a big German newspaper out of their webpage. Police caught wind of it and he was sentenced. Guy then killed himself.

MrAlfie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 06:07 PM
  #13
kaiser matias
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,036
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAlfie View Post
Happened to me long time ago in Germany.

A friend of mine asked me to download an album (from a ****** band nonetheless).

I obliged and did him this favor.
A few months later a lawyer send us a letter asking us to pay 500 Euros and sign some papers pretty much saying I will stop "distributing" the music.
Well I paid and stopped hearing from then. Needless to say I never downloaded anything again.

But here is the thing, and I'm very blurry when it comes to German,Finnish and let alone American copyright law. But I seem to remember that the actual download was not prohibited but merely the upload/distribution. So going by that, don't they commit a criminal act themselves by uploading those corrupt bait files?
I'm sure some law nut knows much more about this than I can ever dream of.


Edit:

I do seem to remember a certain Lawyer called Gravenreuth, who pretty much made a living of baiting people into this. He ended up chewing off too much than he could handle and tried to scam a big German newspaper out of their webpage. Police caught wind of it and he was sentenced. Guy then killed himself.
This is all speculation here, and I have no credentials whatsoever that can back up this, but:

Since it was apparently a "corrupted" file that didn't play, it wasn't technically the song, so they didn't really upload any copywrited music. Thus they were able to get around the laws banning uploading copywrited music/material, but can charge people trying to get said material.

At least thats how I understand it.

kaiser matias is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 06:14 PM
  #14
MrAlfie
 
MrAlfie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Rehab
Country: Spain
Posts: 5,249
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiser matias View Post
This is all speculation here, and I have no credentials whatsoever that can back up this, but:

Since it was apparently a "corrupted" file that didn't play, it wasn't technically the song, so they didn't really upload any copywrited music. Thus they were able to get around the laws banning uploading copywrited music/material, but can charge people trying to get said material.

At least thats how I understand it.
But in return that would mean they are acting on the intent but not on the actual download since technically they never downloaded the music.

MrAlfie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2012, 12:36 PM
  #15
guest1467
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 24,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Moose View Post
If you don't use a proxy, you are not anonymous, the ISP can easily identify you by IP. I don't think using Ubuntu or Win or any other os makes a difference.
That is the point of the virtual box and tor.

guest1467 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2012, 03:59 PM
  #16
XX
Lots of Try
 
XX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Executionville
Country: United States
Posts: 30,974
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
It's ******** laws and procedures.

But I don't have any sympathy. People need to start protecting their computers from governments better. Encrypt your hard-drive, install a virtual box, tor and ubuntu and anonymously use your computer.
Disabling DHT, peer exchange, local peer discovery, and tracker scraping on utorrent was enough for me to avoid any further DMCA notices from my ISP. No need for proxies.

XX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2012, 05:16 PM
  #17
cyris
On a Soma Holiday
 
cyris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 3rd Planet From Sun.
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,433
vCash: 500
Not to derail the thread or anything but what are the Canadian laws in this area currently.

Wetcoaster our local legal expert I'm looking in your direction.

cyris is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2012, 05:19 PM
  #18
Eisen
Registered User
 
Eisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Eugene
Country: Germany
Posts: 7,168
vCash: 500
I just use proxies.
And I wouldn't pay the fee. This seems like a cutthroat business-model and I'm not sure that this is legal.

Eisen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2012, 05:22 PM
  #19
cyris
On a Soma Holiday
 
cyris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 3rd Planet From Sun.
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,433
vCash: 500
My best recommendation to Tannala is to contact a lawyer. This sounds like extortion but very few if any posters around here are gonna have much knowledge about Finland's legal system.

cyris is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2012, 05:30 PM
  #20
The Moose
Registered User
 
The Moose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 5,455
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
Well I'll give it a go: this is thuggish behavior on the part of the record company. And pretty freakishly unfortunate that a guy got caught in the dragnet who spends so much time, money and energy supporting artists.

That being said, surely he knows that downloading music is illegal. So he showed his daughter how to do it and then when she gets caught he plays ignorant and argues that his family shouldn't be held responsible because his daughter is only 9 and couldn't have known any better.

But yes, it's reprehensible behavior on the part of the record companies, and it will hasten their decline.
Is it really illegal to download? I had the impression that is illegal to distribute copyrighted material.

The Moose is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2012, 11:11 PM
  #21
Jussi
No strings on me
 
Jussi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Finland
Posts: 46,498
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kov View Post
So I looked into this a little bit, and my research left me shocked and appalled.

How can anybody like this Chisu's crappy music?
That's what most Finns are wondering as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiser matias View Post
This is all speculation here, and I have no credentials whatsoever that can back up this, but:

Since it was apparently a "corrupted" file that didn't play, it wasn't technically the song, so they didn't really upload any copywrited music. Thus they were able to get around the laws banning uploading copywrited music/material, but can charge people trying to get said material.

At least thats how I understand it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAlfie View Post
But in return that would mean they are acting on the intent but not on the actual download since technically they never downloaded the music.
Well the Finnish law regarding piracy was changed to also make downloading illegal. As has been reported in several medias here in recent days, the laws are very vague and hard to understand and the experts are pretty much unanimous in that the lawmakers did not understand at all what they were signing. Curiously though, since the intent to download the songs is main point of charge, shouldn't that same aspect be used against the fine? Can they prove they lost out 600 euros or just the price of one CD (which the father ended up buying anyway)? I could imagine that Chisu would offer to pay the fine herself if her record company weren't in the way. She most definitely would win the public opinion on her side after that.

Jussi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 12:21 AM
  #22
invictus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,033
vCash: 500
I must say that Chisu is more attractive than I expected someone with a moniker like Chisu to be.

invictus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 10:32 AM
  #23
guest1467
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 24,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by XX View Post
Disabling DHT, peer exchange, local peer discovery, and tracker scraping on utorrent was enough for me to avoid any further DMCA notices from my ISP. No need for proxies.
They are still monitoring you. I prefer that they didn't know that I even exist personally.

guest1467 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2012, 01:46 PM
  #24
Jussi
No strings on me
 
Jussi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Finland
Posts: 46,498
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by XX View Post
Disabling DHT, peer exchange, local peer discovery, and tracker scraping on utorrent was enough for me to avoid any further DMCA notices from my ISP. No need for proxies.
Not sure if I already have done those, where do I find them?

Jussi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 09:05 AM
  #25
Jussi
No strings on me
 
Jussi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Finland
Posts: 46,498
vCash: 500
Seems the record company, the artist and the father found a compromise and the case is now settled. The father paid 300 euros and that was it.

Jussi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:37 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.