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Old
12-13-2012, 10:13 PM
  #226
Rayzorexe
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So worst case scenario if Morgan Rielly becomes a regular NHLer is becoming a player like Marc-Andre Bergeron?

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12-13-2012, 10:20 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post
Offensively, Rielly no doubt would have no trouble in the NHL. His passing and speed would be above the average NHLer.

Defensively I am a little worried though. His defensive IQ is fine, he reads plays well and is pretty good positionally. Most worried about his ability to win puck battles in the corners. He is at best average in junior in the dirty areas and he might be exposed playing against full-grown men like Rick Nash.

Ultimately we will have to see him play at least a game or two to see how well his style translates but I would be happy either way (WHL or NHL).
someone knows hockey

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12-13-2012, 10:20 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post
Offensively, Rielly no doubt would have no trouble in the NHL. His passing and speed would be above the average NHLer.

Defensively I am a little worried though. His defensive IQ is fine, he reads plays well and is pretty good positionally. Most worried about his ability to win puck battles in the corners. He is at best average in junior in the dirty areas and he might be exposed playing against full-grown men like Rick Nash.

Ultimately we will have to see him play at least a game or two to see how well his style translates but I would be happy either way (WHL or NHL).
I don't know if I care that much about a perfect product in Rielly at this point. In any event, I don't remember an offensive defenseman like Tomas Kaberle ever being great in the dirty eras of the game, and it's not really like he was 'exposed' as a pro. When you have a guy like Rielly who seems to be able to wheel and create offense at a potentially elite level like an Erik Karlsson, I probably wouldn't want him wasting too much time mucking it up anyway.

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12-13-2012, 11:21 PM
  #229
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I don't know if I care that much about a perfect product in Rielly at this point. In any event, I don't remember an offensive defenseman like Tomas Kaberle ever being great in the dirty eras of the game, and it's not really like he was 'exposed' as a pro. When you have a guy like Rielly who seems to be able to wheel and create offense at a potentially elite level like an Erik Karlsson, I probably wouldn't want him wasting too much time mucking it up anyway.
I like the Kaberle comparison.

Somewhere in the threshold of a Kaberle - Campbell - Letang and we make off like bandits with this kid.

So glad we didnt get Dumba**!

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12-14-2012, 12:00 AM
  #230
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So worst case scenario if Morgan Rielly becomes a regular NHLer is becoming a player like Marc-Andre Bergeron?
Yeah I would say so. He's got a bit more size to him, so that definitely helps. The kid will carve a niche for himself wherever he plays.

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12-14-2012, 08:45 AM
  #231
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I like the Kaberle comparison.

Somewhere in the threshold of a Kaberle - Campbell - Letang and we make off like bandits with this kid.

So glad we didnt get Dumba**!
scouts at the windsor /kitchener game .....really like reilly ....and hes not 100% back to where hes gonna be
not sure he belongs on the leafs if the season resumes or not ...lets see him on the world stage .....he has another year of junior ,so why rush him .......but you gotta admit ,if hockey comes back and its 40 -50 game schedule ......thats perfect for a youngster .we ll see in the world juniors .if hes just ordinary then problem solved .....but if u gotta drew doughty .chris letang kinda guy ......the leafs need that from the back end badly even if it helps kessel not go for long stretches without goals ..if he can help that hes worth it

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12-14-2012, 11:47 AM
  #232
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scouts at the windsor /kitchener game .....really like reilly ....and hes not 100% back to where hes gonna be
not sure he belongs on the leafs if the season resumes or not ...lets see him on the world stage .....he has another year of junior ,so why rush him .......but you gotta admit ,if hockey comes back and its 40 -50 game schedule ......thats perfect for a youngster .we ll see in the world juniors .if hes just ordinary then problem solved .....but if u gotta drew doughty .chris letang kinda guy ......the leafs need that from the back end badly even if it helps kessel not go for long stretches without goals ..if he can help that hes worth it
...Gardiner?

40-50+ games in the NHL + World Jrs + the 30 or so games he has played in the WHL is not perfect for a youngster.

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12-14-2012, 12:07 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post
...Gardiner?

40-50+ games in the NHL + World Jrs + the 30 or so games he has played in the WHL is not perfect for a youngster.
116 WHL games thus far. Not 30.

You are only rushing players who are not ready, if a player is ready for the next level then he is.....I think he is ready.

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12-14-2012, 12:32 PM
  #234
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116 WHL games thus far. Not 30.

You are only rushing players who are not ready, if a player is ready for the next level then he is.....I think he is ready.
Oh, he has played 116 WHL games this year?

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12-14-2012, 02:21 PM
  #235
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Oh, he has played 116 WHL games this year?
The guy's been in the WHL for three years and has shown steady, spectacular development in the meantime. If Rielly looked like he was ready to play in the NHL at camp, I'm not sure why they'd hold him back.

I think people want to delay the inevitable just for the sake of not getting disappointed our unblemished first rounder might disappoint at the next level.

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12-14-2012, 02:37 PM
  #236
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The guy's been in the WHL for three years and has shown steady, spectacular development in the meantime. If Rielly looked like he was ready to play in the NHL at camp, I'm not sure why they'd hold him back.

I think people want to delay the inevitable just for the sake of not getting disappointed our unblemished first rounder might disappoint at the next level.
As long as you don't expect him to out-muscle guys on the boards, he is 100% ready for the NHL.

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12-14-2012, 02:55 PM
  #237
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So worst case scenario if Morgan Rielly becomes a regular NHLer is becoming a player like Marc-Andre Bergeron?
Extremely different players. MAB is short, not the best skater, is prone to making poor decisions, and is very weak defensively, but he has an absolute bomb of a shot. Rielly's shot is nothing special, but he's an elite skater, puck mover, puck handler and passer. He actually has solid size, though he is not a physical player at all. His defensive game is on the weak side at the moment, but I do see potential there with his skating and smarts.

I'd say a "flop" case for Rielly would be a Liles type player, a great skating puck mover who never really learned to be effective in his own end.

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12-14-2012, 02:57 PM
  #238
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If Rielly made the NHL out of camp, it would most likely be in a sheltered role, right? As I recall, Gardiner was sheltered last year, and I'm not sure he's ready to assume full defensive responsibilities either. Can't have too many sheltered guys on the Leafs at once.

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12-14-2012, 03:01 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post
As long as you don't expect him to out-muscle guys on the boards, he is 100% ready for the NHL.
Offensively he's ready, his talent with the puck is high end. However, I don't think he's ready defensively. He's average at best defensively in the WHL right now, I feel pretty confident saying he'd be a liability in his own end at the NHL level. Physically, even though he has decent size, he does seem to get pushed around and/or smoked a decent amount in the WHL as well. I personally feel that it would be a bit early to bring him up. No harm in letting him stay in the WHL a bit longer, until he solidifies his defensive game, and more consistently wins puck battles in his own end.

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12-14-2012, 03:34 PM
  #240
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Extremely different players. MAB is short, not the best skater, is prone to making poor decisions, and is very weak defensively, but he has an absolute bomb of a shot. Rielly's shot is nothing special, but he's an elite skater, puck mover, puck handler and passer. He actually has solid size, though he is not a physical player at all. His defensive game is on the weak side at the moment, but I do see potential there with his skating and smarts.

I'd say a "flop" case for Rielly would be a Liles type player, a great skating puck mover who never really learned to be effective in his own end.
I agree, rielly has always reminded me as a higher end liles and I think he will follow a similar development path in the NHL. Defense isnt ready not because he doesnt have an active stick or his postioning is particularly poor, he just gives forwards way to much space, and isnt active along the boards. He is too passive on the body in his own end. Rielly's strategy atm is just to always stay between the puck and the goalie at all times, but I dont think thats good enough.

I think he has the size and balance to be much more effective defensively. His coach (idk his name) has to get rielly to try to seperate the body from the puck. He doesnt have to truck the guy, or be a nasty SOB to play against but he should be asked to pinch them off. He has the size, skating and smarts to do it efectively imo.

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12-14-2012, 05:45 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by jedimyrmidon View Post
If Rielly made the NHL out of camp, it would most likely be in a sheltered role, right? As I recall, Gardiner was sheltered last year, and I'm not sure he's ready to assume full defensive responsibilities either. Can't have too many sheltered guys on the Leafs at once.
Thats the thing, he wasnt sheltered at all. Franson / Komisarek / Schenn all were more sheltered than him.

Around Feb / March when Schenn went from playing mediocrly to just downright bad, Gardiner even got a fair bit of PK time

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12-14-2012, 05:55 PM
  #242
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I agree, rielly has always reminded me as a higher end liles and I think he will follow a similar development path in the NHL. Defense isnt ready not because he doesnt have an active stick or his postioning is particularly poor, he just gives forwards way to much space, and isnt active along the boards. He is too passive on the body in his own end. Rielly's strategy atm is just to always stay between the puck and the goalie at all times, but I dont think thats good enough.

I think he has the size and balance to be much more effective defensively. His coach (idk his name) has to get rielly to try to seperate the body from the puck. He doesnt have to truck the guy, or be a nasty SOB to play against but he should be asked to pinch them off. He has the size, skating and smarts to do it efectively imo.
Agreed. When watching him play, my main problem with his defensive game is that he's very passive. As you said, he tends to give opposing forwards a lot of time and space, which is a dangerous way to defend, especially at the NHL level. I'm not overly worried about this long term, I think it's something he can fix, but I'm surprised by how many people seem to think that he's currently playing NHL level defence. Personally, I'd like to see him be at least solidly above average defensively at the WHL level before we bring him up to the NHL.

Another thought:
- Rielly, Gardiner, Liles, Phaneuf and Gunnarsson all shoot left, and Rielly, Gardiner and Liles specifically all play fairly similar games
- I don't see Gardiner and Phaneuf playing on the same pairing, both are aggressive puck handlers who like to take risks, the two of them on one pair probably means too many mistakes
- That leaves the top pairing with Phaneuf as the RD and Gunnarsson as the LD, and Gardiner the LD on the 2nd pairing (with Franson?)
- When Rielly comes up, I don't see him being good enough to play on the top pair with Phaneuf immediately, and I think Gardiner has a tight hold on 2nd pair LD. I see Rielly having a good shot to become our top pairing LD in the long term, but he'll have to mature into that role. When he first comes up, that means he should be playing LD on the 3rd pairing, which is Liles' spot. When Rielly does come up, I think it means we'll have to trade Liles to make room, so we better make sure that he's good enough to fill Liles' shoes before we make him a Leaf


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12-14-2012, 06:17 PM
  #243
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Agreed. When watching him play, my main problem with his defensive game is that he's very passive. As you said, he tends to give opposing forwards a lot of time and space, which is a dangerous way to defend, especially at the NHL level. I'm not overly worried about this long term, I think it's something he can fix, but I'm surprised by how many people seem to think that he's currently playing NHL level defence. Personally, I'd like to see him be at least solidly above average defensively at the WHL level before we bring him up to the NHL.

Another thought:
- Rielly, Gardiner, Liles, Phaneuf and Gunnarsson all shoot left, and Rielly, Gardiner and Liles specifically all play fairly similar games
- I don't see Gardiner and Phaneuf playing on the same pairing, both are aggressive puck handlers who like to take risks, the two of them on one pair probably means too many mistakes
- That leaves the top pairing with Phaneuf as the RD and Gunnarsson as the LD, and Gardiner the LD on the 2nd pairing (with Franson?)
- When Rielly comes up, I don't see him being good enough to play on the top pair with Phaneuf immediately, and I think Gardiner has a tight hold on 2nd pair LD. I see Rielly having a good shot to become our top pairing LD in the long term, but he'll have to mature into that role. When he first comes up, that means he should be playing LD on the 3rd pairing, which is Liles' spot. When Rielly does come up, I think it means we'll have to trade Liles to make room, so we better make sure that he's good enough to fill Liles' shoes before we make him a Leaf
I would actually trade Gunnarson before Liles. If Liles can return to pre-concussion form he will be our best defenseman. As long as Rielly, Gardiner and Liles are not paired together, I don't think it will be that big of a problem.

Although I do not expect Rielly to outplay Liles or Gardiner for at least 2-3 years. He still has a long way to go to become the player we all want him to be.

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12-14-2012, 06:23 PM
  #244
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I would actually trade Gunnarson before Liles. If Liles can return to pre-concussion form he will be our best defenseman. As long as Rielly, Gardiner and Liles are not paired together, I don't think it will be that big of a problem.

Although I do not expect Rielly to outplay Liles or Gardiner for at least 2-3 years. He still has a long way to go to become the player we all want him to be.
But that is a pretty big problem. None of them playing together means one per defensive pairing. Which one of those players is paired with Phaneuf. Gardiner I don't think is ready just yet, Rielly I don't think would be able to handle that many minutes at his age. Leaves Liles which isn't all that great of a choice either.

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12-14-2012, 06:28 PM
  #245
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But that is a pretty big problem. None of them playing together means one per defensive pairing. Which one of those players is paired with Phaneuf. Gardiner I don't think is ready just yet, Rielly I don't think would be able to handle that many minutes at his age. Leaves Liles which isn't all that great of a choice either.
I could live with Liles. Like i said, it matters which Liles shows up when the NHL returns. Liles was better than Phaneuf last year before his concussion.

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12-14-2012, 06:35 PM
  #246
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But that is a pretty big problem. None of them playing together means one per defensive pairing. Which one of those players is paired with Phaneuf. Gardiner I don't think is ready just yet, Rielly I don't think would be able to handle that many minutes at his age. Leaves Liles which isn't all that great of a choice either.
Indeed, that's my point. Gardiner and Liles aren't really great choices to pair with Phaneuf, they all played on different pairings last year, and I feel like that will continue in the future. Last year our pairings were basically:

Gunnarsson - Phaneuf
Gardiner - revolving door (mostly Schenn and Franson)
Liles - revolving door (mostly Franson, Komi and Schenn)

If Rielly isn't immediately ready to play on the top pairing when he first comes up (which I think is a safe bet), then he pretty much has to play on the bottom pairing. Since you don't really want any of Gardiner, Liles or Rielly playing together (all left handed shots who like to handle the puck, with similar strengths/weaknesses), that pretty much means one of them should be moved. When Rielly comes up for good, I think the Leafs will look to move Liles, assuming no other injuries/trades between now and then.

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12-14-2012, 06:41 PM
  #247
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As long as you don't expect him to out-muscle guys on the boards, he is 100% ready for the NHL.
Does Phil Kessel ever out-muscle any one on the boards?

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12-14-2012, 06:42 PM
  #248
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Indeed, that's my point. Gardiner and Liles aren't really great choices to pair with Phaneuf, they all played on different pairings last year, and I feel like that will continue in the future. Last year our pairings were basically:

Gunnarsson - Phaneuf
Gardiner - revolving door (mostly Schenn and Franson)
Liles - revolving door (mostly Franson, Komi and Schenn)

If Rielly isn't immediately ready to play on the top pairing when he first comes up (which I think is a safe bet), then he pretty much has to play on the bottom pairing. Since you don't really want any of Gardiner, Liles or Rielly playing together (all left handed shots who like to handle the puck, with similar strengths/weaknesses), that pretty much means one of them should be moved. When Rielly comes up for good, I think the Leafs will look to move Liles, assuming no other injuries/trades between now and then.
I definitely see where you coming from with regards to trading Liles. Although if he gets traded I say it will be in a couple years. No way we write of Liles before Rielly even plays a game in the NHL. No doubt Rielly will be a great player down the road, but no way is he going to rip up the league in his rookie year.

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12-14-2012, 06:45 PM
  #249
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Does Phil Kessel ever out-muscle any one on the boards?


Comparing a winger to a defenseman...

Which position requires oneself to out-muscle players in the corner? I shouldn't have to tell you.

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12-14-2012, 08:07 PM
  #250
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Comparing a winger to a defenseman...

Which position requires oneself to out-muscle players in the corner? I shouldn't have to tell you.
Well wingers play the boards soooooo.

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