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Old
11-24-2012, 09:52 PM
  #126
LyricalLyricist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
Tim Panaccio ‏@tpanotchCSN
player source from the Fehr meeting on decertification discussion: "it is a serious consideration right now."
Get your popcorn.

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11-24-2012, 09:53 PM
  #127
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The small market owners are going to regret playing hardball if the union decertifies.

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Old
11-24-2012, 10:21 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
While players will be paid more their benefits will be taken away. A lot is paid for them outside of their paycheck, that will be reduced or removed.

Even then, I meant as someone else pointed out, those guaranteed contracts will not be obligatory and few will get them.
It would be interesting to see if the total compensation dollars spent by the NHL will rise or shrink in a de-certified world.

I agree with you that the discrepancy between the talented players and the fringe players will grow, the mid-level players will still offer value to the majority of teams and the teams will still be competing for their services.

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11-24-2012, 10:31 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The small market owners are going to regret playing hardball if the union decertifies.
Will they?

The idea is to decertify then re-certify anyway. I'm not sure we'll even experience a free market.

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11-24-2012, 10:35 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Will they?

The idea is to decertify then re-certify anyway. I'm not sure we'll even experience a free market.
How is that a threat?

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11-24-2012, 11:13 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
How is that a threat?
Quote:
Of course, there were no rulings on any of this, because settling all litigation was part of the new CBA agreement. (After the NFL players won in 1992, you can bet every league will demand this in the future.) The two players' lawsuits were merged into one on November 21. Five days later, the owners and players made a deal. The reformation of the union and "Yes" votes from both sides to accept took another 12 days.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...questions.html

Why would small guys in NHLPA actually enjoy losing financial security and benefits? A lot will want to re-certify.

The idea however is to file anti-trust lawsuit to get the ball rolling.

I can't speak for the players but I find it hard to believe many would risk their financial gain. There's tons of people who will play in NHL for 200k. Min wages would go down.

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11-24-2012, 11:23 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...questions.html

Why would small guys in NHLPA actually enjoy losing financial security and benefits? A lot will want to re-certify.

The idea however is to file anti-trust lawsuit to get the ball rolling.

I can't speak for the players but I find it hard to believe many would risk their financial gain. There's tons of people who will play in NHL for 200k. Min wages would go down.
There are millions of people who would play in the NHL for 200k, but most of them are not any good.

Teams still want to win. You can't put Joe Blow on the ice for six minutes a game, you'll probably end up with six goals against. We've seen a lot of players fail in bottom-6 roles in recent years, Andreas Engvist, Aaron Palushaj, for example. Ultimately, I think the salary floor for 4th lines will be determined by Europe and the KHL; though richer teams like the Rangers, the Laffs, the Habs, the Ruins, the Flyers, etc will probably pay more for higher quality 4th liners.

I'll point out that even though the current salary floor is 500k, very few players actually play for that much.


Last edited by DAChampion: 11-25-2012 at 12:40 AM.
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11-25-2012, 12:35 AM
  #133
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And with this in mind I just don't see why the players would need to recertify. Sure there is a lot of risk involved but I agree with DAChampion that just because I would be willing to play for $50k/yr that I would get that opportunity because there is no way I'm competitive.

It's not like a minimum wage job where anyone can do it. If one owner low-balls too low you can bet another owner will offer something just a bit better. I don't see why it wouldn't go back to being somewhat similar to before the cap.

Of course as I've mentioned you can bet some teams would collapse.

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Old
11-25-2012, 12:49 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
Tim Panaccio ‏@tpanotchCSN
player source from the Fehr meeting on decertification discussion: "it is a serious consideration right now."
Then the 3rd/4th line players are dumber than I thought.

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Old
11-25-2012, 02:55 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
Then the 3rd/4th line players are dumber than I thought.

they're about to lose lots of money anyway, risk is worth it for the "good ones".

like guys of Moen calibre, for example, wouldnt get offers for over 1.5Mil anyway.

rich teams will want guys like him on their 3rd line instead of borderline NHLer on the cheap.

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11-25-2012, 08:26 AM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The small market owners are going to regret playing hardball if the union decertifies.
You seem to be saying that the results of a decertification are a foregone conclusion in favor of the players. To me the final results of this action are still unclear. While the other two leagues (NBA and NFL) settled before any lawsuits got to court, the NFL decertification was overturned.

If the NHL feels confident in their position, they could see how decertification plays out in the courts. If not they could settle quickly.

If the owners wait it out, the season is likely over and there will be more players than owners who will regret playing hardball. Many of them will never see the NHL again regardless of who wins.

If the players eventually win some concessions or a lawsuit there will be a handful of winners among the players, some of them very big winners. But others will have paid the ultimate price.

One thing is certain, if the players win a lawsuit it will do nothing to grow the game in the future... the industry on which they and future players depend for their living. The decertificaion threat goes against the altruistic image they have been trying to put forward.

If the owners win a lawsuit it could be bad for the players. Some of the contractual rights they currently enjoy could be withdrawn and give the owners a even stronger grip on their future. It is not an outcome that Fehr or the players would want.

While I am not a big fan of Fehr or Bettman both of them are intelligent guys and are carefully weighing the potential fallout from a decertification.

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Old
11-25-2012, 09:16 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...questions.html

Why would small guys in NHLPA actually enjoy losing financial security and benefits? A lot will want to re-certify.

The idea however is to file anti-trust lawsuit to get the ball rolling.

I can't speak for the players but I find it hard to believe many would risk their financial gain. There's tons of people who will play in NHL for 200k. Min wages would go down.
It's hard to predict how a lot of things would work, but Tom Benjamin made an interesting point that there aren't that many players at the minimum now. The argument being that teams are already choosing to pay bottom tier players more than they have to so why would that change without an enforced minimum? With the Habs, it looks like only Nokelainen and St Denis (if he makes the team) are at the floor.

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Old
11-25-2012, 09:17 AM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The small market owners are going to regret playing hardball if the union decertifies.
It won't happen. The owners will fold like a house of cards before decertification goes through.

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Old
11-25-2012, 09:44 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
It won't happen. The owners will fold like a house of cards before decertification goes through.
You sound very confident. If Fehr was that confident, they would have already done it

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11-25-2012, 09:46 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
It's hard to predict how a lot of things would work, but Tom Benjamin made an interesting point that there aren't that many players at the minimum now. The argument being that teams are already choosing to pay bottom tier players more than they have to so why would that change without an enforced minimum? With the Habs, it looks like only Nokelainen and St Denis (if he makes the team) are at the floor.
If you are comparing to the NHL to the NBA, the situation is slightly different. The NBA has much smaller rosters and fewer marginal players.

In the end, it is unpredictable as you say

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11-25-2012, 09:48 AM
  #141
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A very biased, one-sided article that does little to nothing to clarify or shed any light on this issue.

The truth of the matter is that serious concessions have to be made on both sides regardless of what either side thinks is "right". Another season is spiralling down the drain while millions are being squandered and - most importantly - the customers are angry and insulted.

Bettman and Fehr bring shame to their sport so they can continue this infantile, my-dinky-is-bigger-than-yours saga which will probably end with a deal (% and terms) that could've been agreed upon in September.

A plague on both their houses!
And what exactly are the owners doing in terms of concessions vis-à-vis the last CBA? It seems to me that all the concessions are being asked of the players.

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Old
11-25-2012, 10:30 AM
  #142
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Whoever "wins," we lose.

If and when this gets settled, both sides will probably claim they "won." Who loses is Habs fans and those in other healthy hockey markets. We will pay the outrageous ticket prices that funnel money into losing franchises. The top five average ticket prices are all in Canadian arenas, when a leaf fan pays $125 (average at AC), they are subsidizing the Stars, where the corresponding ticket price is $25.

Bettman and the players are united on one point: Fleece the Canadian fans.

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Old
11-25-2012, 10:39 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
You seem to be saying that the results of a decertification are a foregone conclusion in favor of the players. To me the final results of this action are still unclear. While the other two leagues (NBA and NFL) settled before any lawsuits got to court, the NFL decertification was overturned.

If the NHL feels confident in their position, they could see how decertification plays out in the courts. If not they could settle quickly.

If the owners wait it out, the season is likely over and there will be more players than owners who will regret playing hardball. Many of them will never see the NHL again regardless of who wins.

If the players eventually win some concessions or a lawsuit there will be a handful of winners among the players, some of them very big winners. But others will have paid the ultimate price.

One thing is certain, if the players win a lawsuit it will do nothing to grow the game in the future... the industry on which they and future players depend for their living. The decertificaion threat goes against the altruistic image they have been trying to put forward.

If the owners win a lawsuit it could be bad for the players. Some of the contractual rights they currently enjoy could be withdrawn and give the owners a even stronger grip on their future. It is not an outcome that Fehr or the players would want.

While I am not a big fan of Fehr or Bettman both of them are intelligent guys and are carefully weighing the potential fallout from a decertification.
more like in favor of big markets IMO.

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Old
11-25-2012, 10:59 AM
  #144
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And what exactly are the owners doing in terms of concessions vis-à-vis the last CBA? It seems to me that all the concessions are being asked of the players.
I havn't heard of the owners giving one thing. Seems like the players have put in proposal after proposal and just got "No, No, No, No" back.

So **** the owners, if they want to watch some ****** US hockey markets die so be it. It is a shame for the fans but as a Canadian I am ****ing tired of subsidizing these deadbeat teams.

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Old
11-25-2012, 12:48 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
If and when this gets settled, both sides will probably claim they "won." Who loses is Habs fans and those in other healthy hockey markets. We will pay the outrageous ticket prices that funnel money into losing franchises. The top five average ticket prices are all in Canadian arenas, when a leaf fan pays $125 (average at AC), they are subsidizing the Stars, where the corresponding ticket price is $25.

Bettman and the players are united on one point: Fleece the Canadian fans.
That's my feeling also.

To the NHLPA: Please do decertify, so we can stop paying a portion of the salaries of players that do not want to play in Montreal for various reasons. In a non-union world, we'll be in the playoffs almost every year with a completely different lineup. We could end up with Getzlaf & Perry after all the dumb spending on Gomez, Kaberle & Bourque who would see their current contract disintegrate anyway. It would be a Night & Day scenario for the Montreal Canadiens.

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Old
11-25-2012, 01:34 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
That's my feeling also.

To the NHLPA: Please do decertify, so we can stop paying a portion of the salaries of players that do not want to play in Montreal for various reasons. In a non-union world, we'll be in the playoffs almost every year with a completely different lineup. We could end up with Getzlaf & Perry after all the dumb spending on Gomez, Kaberle & Bourque who would see their current contract disintegrate anyway. It would be a Night & Day scenario for the Montreal Canadiens.
if a decertification does happen, does that make every player(including draft picks in minors or ahl) ufas?

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11-25-2012, 01:41 PM
  #147
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if a decertification does happen, does that make every player(including draft picks in minors or ahl) ufas?
Yes. All contracts would be voided and any form of interactions between teams to try to regulate salaries (including the draft in general) would be liable under the anti-thrust laws as price fixing. It would be a massive free for all just like the soccer leagues in Europe.

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11-25-2012, 01:45 PM
  #148
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Yes. All contract would be voided and any form of interactions between teams to try to regulate salaries would be liable under the anti-thrust laws as price fixing. It would be a massive free for all just like the soccer leagues in Europe.
wouldn't that do away with developing players in minors? there wouldn't be a draft so any player in the world(over 18 i assume?) could be signed at any time?

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11-25-2012, 01:51 PM
  #149
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wouldn't that do away with developing players in minors? there wouldn't be a draft so any player in the world(over 18 i assume?) could be signed at any time?
No I don't think so. A team could for instance sign a 16 years old player at a couple millions and rent the player's services with or without his approbation to a junior team. (That junior team could also be owned by the same club eh) Essentially making millionaires playing junior hockey or the AHL. It's all about the salary not really where they play. That depends on the individual contract with the player, which would need to be re-negotiated without the CBA in the way.

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11-25-2012, 01:52 PM
  #150
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Lol @ decertification

**** me.

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