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Most underrated (on HF) players ON YOUR TEAM

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Old
11-24-2012, 06:00 PM
  #151
Machinehead
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
This angry response is a good example of Kessel hate
It's not an angry response or "Kessel hate". Not at all.

It's simply a list of 6 guys who have consistently been better goal scorers (save for Neal who had one season better than Kessel).

I'm a big Kessel fan and I agree, he's not 5. Top 10, yeah.

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Old
11-24-2012, 06:06 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Why are you only using 1 month though for a pace throughout the season?

Most people chimed in "Kessel&Schenn?" when rumours of Phaneuf to Toronto were out there the day of the trade.

The fact is, Stajan had 1 nice year getting a lot of minutes on a team with no Centre depth.
He poted 55 in 08-09, and had 41 in 55 at the time of the trade. That qualifies as 2 good years as a first-line, two-way center in his mid-20s.

Quote:
Anothe puzzling part to the trade was when it was officially announced, Sutter claimed it gave him "Cap flexibility". Calgary took back as much salary as they gave the Leafs back. And then Sutter horribly overpaid Stajan to re-sign him.

Stajan was a big part of the trade for Calgary, but Burke was going to let him go as a UFa for nothing. He had no plans of keeping him.
Stajan was worth more than that on the market, easily. Burke wanting to let him go to UFA is a dumb decision. Especially when you compare it to the Connolly signing; Stajan is better than Tim Connolly, and was better then. He's better offensively and defensively, and he's three year younger. And he's MUCH better on faceoffs. They play similar styles. Why did Burke go out and pay 50% above Stajan's cap hit to get an older, worse version of Stajan after trading him unless Stajan was a necessary piece to the Phaneuf trade that Burke otherwise didn't want to give up? It doesn't make sense for him to spend that kind of cash on effectively a B version of the player he was supposedly going to let walk.

And who does Toronto have at center that made Stajan so expendable? Grabovski? Bozak? Grabovski is the same age and has been no better offensively than Stajan was, but doesn't have Stajan's all-around game. Bozak doesn't have nearly the offensive performance Stajan provided in Toronto.

So what exactly would Burke have been looking to gain by dumping Stajan, a.k.a. his best center? Normally, winning teams don't let their best forwards just walk away. So I don't buy that he wouldn't have made any effort to keep him.

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11-24-2012, 06:10 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
It's not an angry response or "Kessel hate". Not at all.

It's simply a list of 6 guys who have consistently been better goal scorers (save for Neal who had one season better than Kessel).

I'm a big Kessel fan and I agree, he's not 5. Top 10, yeah.
For what he is and that being a pure shooter,he is top 5 in players that play the same style.He reminds me of a young peter bondra

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Old
11-24-2012, 06:11 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
It's not an angry response or "Kessel hate". Not at all.

It's simply a list of 6 guys who have consistently been better goal scorers (save for Neal who had one season better than Kessel).

I'm a big Kessel fan and I agree, he's not 5. Top 10, yeah.
He did mean points, not goals.

And when you somehow manage 37 goals with Tyler Bozak, you should get automatically bumped to top 5. 37 goals was more impressive than Neal's 40.

It did seem like quite an angry rant over nothing.

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11-24-2012, 06:14 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
He poted 55 in 08-09, and had 41 in 55 at the time of the trade. That qualifies as 2 good years as a first-line, two-way center in his mid-20s.



Stajan was worth more than that on the market, easily. Burke wanting to let him go to UFA is a dumb decision. Especially when you compare it to the Connolly signing; Stajan is better than Tim Connolly, and was better then. He's better offensively and defensively, and he's three year younger. And he's MUCH better on faceoffs. They play similar styles. Why did Burke go out and pay 50% above Stajan's cap hit to get an older, worse version of Stajan after trading him unless Stajan was a necessary piece to the Phaneuf trade that Burke otherwise didn't want to give up? It doesn't make sense for him to spend that kind of cash on effectively a B version of the player he was supposedly going to let walk.

And who does Toronto have at center that made Stajan so expendable? Grabovski? Bozak? Grabovski is the same age and has been no better offensively than Stajan was, but doesn't have Stajan's all-around game. Bozak doesn't have nearly the offensive performance Stajan provided in Toronto.

So what exactly would Burke have been looking to gain by dumping Stajan, a.k.a. his best center? Normally, winning teams don't let their best forwards just walk away. So I don't buy that he wouldn't have made any effort to keep him.
Not true. You're underrating Connolly a bit there. Look at his offensive numbers. In 09-10' 65 points in only 73 games and best PPG numbers on the contending Sabres. Connolly easily has been better than Stajan in his career.

And Stajan being the Leafs best centre tells you of their problems and it's understandable why Burke would be hesitant to give him a big payday and let him continue as the Leafs top centre.

Calgary re-signed him. Look how that turned out? Burke was right.


Last edited by RogerRoeper*: 11-24-2012 at 06:21 PM.
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Old
11-24-2012, 06:20 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by MrWangz View Post
Kessel? Top five scorer? Lets count. In no particular order. These scorers should be above kessel.

Gaborik
Stamkos
Neal
Malkin
Ovechkin
Kovalchuck
D.Sedin

That's more than 4 skaters. So kessel should not be top five.
Let's use a combination of...
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

and...
http://www.leftwinglock.com/line-combos/

Goals over past 4 seasons...

Stamkos 179
Ovechkin 176
Kovalchuk 152
Marleau 149
Perry 146
Iginla 142
Carter 136
Kessel 135


Hmm 8th highest goal total cool.

He is between 5th-10th it seems. Even though...

http://www.leftwinglock.com/line-com...gametype=ALL#A

He's played...

2010/2011
36% with Bozak Lupul
29% with Bozak/Crabb
21% with Bozak/Versteeg
9% with Bozak/Armstrong
5.45% with Bozak/Kulemin

2011/2012
almost 100% with Lupul/Bozak won't even bother doing percentages.

Yes, Tyler Bozak, the same Tyler Bozak who other teams won't take as their 3rd line C.

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11-24-2012, 06:22 PM
  #157
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37 goals playing with Bozak (3rd line C)
40 goals playing with Malkin (Art Ross Winner, Best Player in the Game)

Kessel is incredibly underrated with a lot of people here. Also in the advanced stats section we saw players tend to peek in goal scoring at around 25, the age Kessel is during the lock out, unfortunately.

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Old
11-24-2012, 06:23 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hero View Post
Let's use a combination of...
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

and...
http://www.leftwinglock.com/line-combos/

Goals over past 4 seasons...

Stamkos 179
Ovechkin 176
Kovalchuk 152
Marleau 149
Perry 146
Iginla 142
Carter 136
Kessel 135


Hmm 8th highest goal total cool.

He is between 5th-10th it seems. Even though...

http://www.leftwinglock.com/line-com...gametype=ALL#A

He's played...

2010/2011
36% with Bozak Lupul
29% with Bozak/Crabb
21% with Bozak/Versteeg
9% with Bozak/Armstrong
5.45% with Bozak/Kulemin

2011/2012
almost 100% with Lupul/Bozak won't even bother doing percentages.

Yes, Tyler Bozak, the same Tyler Bozak who other teams won't take as their 3rd line C.
Yup. James Neal got 40 with Malkin and Crosby. Kessel gets Bozak all year

I was quite amazed the year prior, Kessel got 32 with Bozak and Joey Crabb for the majority of the year. Bozak was far worse that year. That was more impressive than guys ahead of huim in scoring who got it with stars on their line.

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Old
11-24-2012, 06:25 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hero View Post
37 goals playing with Bozak (3rd line C)
40 goals playing with Malkin (Art Ross Winner, Best Player in the Game)

Kessel is incredibly underrated with a lot of people here. Also in the advanced stats section we saw players tend to peek in goal scoring at around 25, the age Kessel is during the lock out, unfortunately.

Incredibly underrated indeed. The crap he gets is laughable.

Kessel has improved his game in terms of overall offense. His passing is terrific, so he'll still get lots of points even when he peaks as a goal scorer.

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11-24-2012, 06:38 PM
  #160
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Kessel is a fantastic talent, but very 1-dimensional

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Old
11-24-2012, 06:38 PM
  #161
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Higgins - makes every line he's on click. 43 points playing with black holes on his lines, motor never stops running. Wish we had a few more of him.

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11-24-2012, 08:09 PM
  #162
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devils fan. i know alot of nj fans would say elias. and rightly so. but hes not the only one. i think you need to include zajac. travis zajac made a significant difference to the team when he returned from injury. he plays great offense, while also being great defensively

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11-24-2012, 08:11 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by lboogie42 View Post
devils fan. i know alot of nj fans would say elias. and rightly so. but hes not the only one. i think you need to include zajac. travis zajac made a significant difference to the team when he returned from injury. he plays great offense, while also being great defensively
Most of the team is underrated.

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Old
11-24-2012, 08:29 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Not true. You're underrating Connolly a bit there. Look at his offensive numbers. In 09-10' 65 points in only 73 games and best PPG numbers on the contending Sabres. Connolly easily has been better than Stajan in his career.

And Stajan being the Leafs best centre tells you of their problems and it's understandable why Burke would be hesitant to give him a big payday and let him continue as the Leafs top centre.

Calgary re-signed him.
And promptly put him in a checking role because he was the only guy on the team capable of handling it. The only thing close to another option was a slowed-down Brendan Morrison, who still had his passing game but no longer could effectively play as a checking center. Olli Jokinen certainly wasn't going to be played in that role.

Quote:
Look how that turned out? Burke was right.
Stajan scored ES points at almost the same rate per minute as Kessel in 2010-11. While playing a checking role. His production dropped a bit last year. But so did that of Getzlaf, Perry, and Ryan. Those three posted only slightly better ESP/60 than Stajan - and Stajan did it without two of Getzlaf/Perry/Ryan.

Stajan is highly underrated. This is fact. The fact that we are even having this discussion proves it.

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11-24-2012, 09:41 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Goldshadow View Post
For Minnesota, Kyle Brodziak and Jared Spurgeon.

Brodziak is one of the best 3rd line centers in the league who had to play long stints in our 1st line last year and didn't look bad at all. Hell, he made Nick Johnson (feel free to ask "who?") look good.

Spurgeon is a bit like the original Mini Cooper. You wouldn't believe that something so tiny works so well.





Spare the dick jokes, please.
Still have no idea why we traded Brodziak to you guys for peanuts. One of Tambelini's worst moves in his tenure here. Maybe even THE worst move.

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Old
11-24-2012, 09:46 PM
  #166
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I think 29 other team's fanbases forget that Justin Williams is the Kings' first line winger

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11-24-2012, 10:44 PM
  #167
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Steen

Honorable mention to Sobotka.

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11-24-2012, 11:32 PM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Not true. You're underrating Connolly a bit there. Look at his offensive numbers. In 09-10' 65 points in only 73 games and best PPG numbers on the contending Sabres. Connolly easily has been better than Stajan in his career.

And Stajan being the Leafs best centre tells you of their problems and it's understandable why Burke would be hesitant to give him a big payday and let him continue as the Leafs top centre.

Calgary re-signed him. Look how that turned out? Burke was right.
People forget how good Connolly was before his brain became mush. He wasn't only the Sabres best scorer then, but also one of our top special teams players (both PP and PK). It's really unfortunate what his concussions have done to his career.

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11-24-2012, 11:53 PM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
And promptly put him in a checking role because he was the only guy on the team capable of handling it. The only thing close to another option was a slowed-down Brendan Morrison, who still had his passing game but no longer could effectively play as a checking center. Olli Jokinen certainly wasn't going to be played in that role.



Stajan scored ES points at almost the same rate per minute as Kessel in 2010-11. While playing a checking role. His production dropped a bit last year. But so did that of Getzlaf, Perry, and Ryan. Those three posted only slightly better ESP/60 than Stajan - and Stajan did it without two of Getzlaf/Perry/Ryan.

Stajan is highly underrated. This is fact. The fact that we are even having this discussion proves it.
Because Stajan couldn't produce in a top 6 role as well. You think when Sutter signed him he envisioned him as a 30 point forward making 3.5 million per? No.

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11-25-2012, 01:27 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
I think 29 other team's fanbases forget that Justin Williams is the Kings' first line winger
Not me, he's a very talented winger.

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11-25-2012, 01:50 AM
  #171
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Pavelski, Thornton, and Vlasic. People really underrate the fact that Pavelski and Thornton face top competition every night and still produce/dominate possession.

Vlasic is a solid #2.

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11-25-2012, 02:08 AM
  #172
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Heatley I think is underrated. Yes, he is no longer providing the points or the goals but his leadership has been invaluable and he is still a good player on the ice.

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11-25-2012, 02:23 AM
  #173
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Kessel yes he is underrated.

Phaneuf was viewed as trash well before he was in Toronto. You just didn't notice it then...
True story. I think this is a little bit of a martyr complex by TO fans. Phaneuf didn't just suddenly become seen as trash when he was traded, I just don't think they were paying attention then. There was plenty of talk about his decline prior to the trade.

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11-25-2012, 03:58 AM
  #174
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True story. I think this is a little bit of a martyr complex by TO fans. Phaneuf didn't just suddenly become seen as trash when he was traded, I just don't think they were paying attention then. There was plenty of talk about his decline prior to the trade.
There sure was, I remember a number of Oilers fans talking about it before he was moved.

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Old
11-25-2012, 08:10 AM
  #175
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