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Lidstrom's place in history - ALL DISCUSSIONS OF LIDSTROM'S "ALL TIME RANKING" HERE

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12-03-2012, 05:22 PM
  #501
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
I'm curious to see the argument that they are not...
It's easy - statistics. Leetch was statistically similar to Bourque at their peaks, but Bourque maintained that level for a lot longer.

And Housley was statistically inferior to both Bourque and Lidstrom when you compare his offense to his peers.

I get what Dennis is saying - Housley and Leetch were both much better at creating offense off the rush than Bourque and Lidstrom, but in my opinion, offense created by outlet passes, puck possession, and controlling play at the blue line counts just as much.

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12-03-2012, 05:24 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
I think it depends on career value vs peak.

Salming had some great offensive seasons early in his career. Obviously he didn't continue that, but there are some arguments to be made.

For my book, in the NHL, I'd consider Park and Housley ahead of Lidstrom all time. I might add Pilote as well juding by other people's reports of him. But Lidstrom still falls well short of top 10 all time. Bourque is in my top-5 (just on offense).
What's the argument that Salming was as good offensively as Lidstrom?

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12-03-2012, 05:46 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post

And Housley was statistically inferior to both Bourque and Lidstrom when you compare his offense to his peers.
What peers?
Housley was only behind Coffey and Bourque by any noticeable margin and he was equal with MacInnis.

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12-03-2012, 06:19 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
What peers?
Housley was only behind Coffey and Bourque by any noticeable margin and he was equal with MacInnis.
I already showed this was wrong last time you made this claim. Do I need to do it again?

Housley was quite a bit behind the Bourque/Leetch/MacInnis trio

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12-03-2012, 07:45 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
I'm curious to see the argument that they are not...
I guess, put most succinctly, skating north while carrying the puck is only one way to generate offense/offensive production.

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12-03-2012, 07:48 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
It's easy - statistics. Leetch was statistically similar to Bourque at their peaks, but Bourque maintained that level for a lot longer.

And Housley was statistically inferior to both Bourque and Lidstrom when you compare his offense to his peers.

I get what Dennis is saying - Housley and Leetch were both much better at creating offense off the rush than Bourque and Lidstrom, but in my opinion, offense created by outlet passes, puck possession, and controlling play at the blue line counts just as much.
At extreme risks for Housley so is that actually being good at offense?

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12-03-2012, 08:07 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
What's the argument that Salming was as good offensively as Lidstrom?
I dislike making an argument I do not really believe in, but I would probably point towards point shares, salmings peak (76 to 79), etc. where he produced excellent offensive results with a rather crappy team.

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12-03-2012, 08:23 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I already showed this was wrong last time you made this claim. Do I need to do it again?

Housley was quite a bit behind the Bourque/Leetch/MacInnis trio
Refresh my memory.
I remember talking about it before but I don't think I pressed it too hard.
That might have changed.

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12-03-2012, 08:27 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
It's easy - statistics. Leetch was statistically similar to Bourque at their peaks, but Bourque maintained that level for a lot longer.

And Housley was statistically inferior to both Bourque and Lidstrom when you compare his offense to his peers.

I get what Dennis is saying - Housley and Leetch were both much better at creating offense off the rush than Bourque and Lidstrom, but in my opinion, offense created by outlet passes, puck possession, and controlling play at the blue line counts just as much.


agreed. i'd also say that offense created on the PP counts just as much as offense created at ES. e.g., macinnis, who is second all time in PP goals for while on the ice, which is enough to put him at 5th all time in goals for while on the ice (data from hockey-reference; stat may well not have been kept through the entire history of the league, or even close to it). just because a siproportionate number of those goals were created on special teams doesn't make him any less prolific.

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12-03-2012, 08:38 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
[/b]
agreed. i'd also say that offense created on the PP counts just as much as offense created at ES. e.g., macinnis, who is second all time in PP goals for while on the ice, which is enough to put him at 5th all time in goals for while on the ice (data from hockey-reference; stat may well not have been kept through the entire history of the league, or even close to it). just because a siproportionate number of those goals were created on special teams doesn't make him any less prolific.
It's not equal though.
Playing disciplined hockey and staying out of the box will greatly limit any opposing D-man that relies heavily on the PP to produce offense.
Even Strength offense has more value.

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12-03-2012, 08:42 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
It's not equal though.
Playing disciplined hockey and staying out of the box will greatly limit any opposing D-man that relies heavily on the PP to produce offense.
Even Strength offense has more value.
But what if a defenseman is sacrificing defense to create offense at even strength, something Housley often did and Leetch sometimes did?

There is barely any defense sacrificed to create offense on the powerplay.

I'll get to the Housley comparison.

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12-03-2012, 08:46 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Refresh my memory.
I remember talking about it before but I don't think I pressed it too hard.
That might have changed.
This is what I posted before, though overpass's advanced stats would show more or less the same thing:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
How is Housley a no-brainer? Just because he sucked at D doesn't make him better than Lidstrom offensively.

From 1982-83 to 1995-96 (his prime), Housley was 19th in total points and 58th in points per game.

From 1995-96 to today, Lidstrom was 11th in total points and tied for 56th in points per game (below a field littered with European talent).

Then add in the fact that Housley's production declined dramatically in the playoffs, and IMO, it's a no brainer, but for Lidstrom.

It's actually closer than I thought, but I'd still take Lidstrom for offense alone. And this is ignoring the fact that Lidstrom actually thought defense-first, so his offensive production was much lower than it could have been.
That's from the middle of last season, so I'm sure the rankings would have changed a little.

The only possible way to put Housley over Lidstrom is to say that he had more offensive talent but didn't get to show it as often because he got less ice time due to terrible defense. I don't think I'd buy that, as I'm sure Housley (unlike Lidstrom) mostly got offensive zone draws when he was on the ice.

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12-03-2012, 08:47 PM
  #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
It's not equal though.
Playing disciplined hockey and staying out of the box will greatly limit any opposing D-man that relies heavily on the PP to produce offense.
Even Strength offense has more value.
Yes, I remember when Blues tried that and Lidström simply started scoring on ES instead. Think it was in '98.

A goal is still a goal and point is still a point. We are evaluating what happened not what couldve happened. If simply staying disciplined would have been enough to to shut them down dont you think more teams would have done it? Sure, no penalties mean less PP points but how do you come to the conclusion that it would mean equal or less amount of ES points? I don't get that logic at all.

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12-03-2012, 08:50 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
But what if a defenseman is sacrificing defense to create offense at even strength, something Housley often did and Leetch sometimes did?

There is barely any defense sacrificed to create offense on the powerplay.
I think that's a fair criticism, but I guess it's fair game to flip that around and say that a player weakens his game if he has to abandon offense in order to maintain his defense.

Ideally you'd want the guy who scores at even strength, feasts on the PP and manages his defensive risks intelligently.

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12-03-2012, 08:52 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I think that's a fair criticism, but I guess it's fair game to flip that around and say that a player weakens his game if he has to abandon offense in order to maintain his defense.

Ideally you'd want the guy who scores at even strength, feasts on the PP and manages his defensive risks intelligently.
Which Housley never did. Bourque were good at riskmanagement but so were Lidström. His ES totals are not that bad except during the '06 season.

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12-03-2012, 08:52 PM
  #516
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
It's not equal though.
Playing disciplined hockey and staying out of the box will greatly limit any opposing D-man that relies heavily on the PP to produce offense.
Even Strength offense has more value.
to a point, you're right. but i'd also add that for the true PP threat, wouldn't the other team play differently, i.e. less aggressively, because they're scared of the possibility of a PP? not a lot of PPs were that fearsome, but at its best calgary's was. it's tough to quantify, but i don't think it's quite as simple as just saying a team will decide not to take penalties without any loss of effectiveness.

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12-03-2012, 08:56 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Which Housley never did. Bourque were good at riskmanagement but so were Lidström. His ES totals are not that bad except during the '06 season.
Definitely. Both Bourque and Lidstrom were well balanced compared to guys like Housley or Langway. Better at both ends of the ice than 99% of the competition, and far more effective than those who lacked balance altogether.

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12-03-2012, 08:59 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
to a point, you're right. but i'd also add that for the true PP threat, wouldn't the other team play differently, i.e. less aggressively, because they're scared of the possibility of a PP? not a lot of PPs were that fearsome, but at its best calgary's was. it's tough to quantify, but i don't think it's quite as simple as just saying a team will decide not to take penalties without any loss of effectiveness.
Perhaps another way of making the same point -- guys who are good on the PP will kill you for your mistakes. Whether you make them frequently or not, they'll rub your nose in it when it happens. And that's enough to turn a game or playoff series, as evidenced by the fact that teams that are most successful at special teams usually win and special teams is usually the difference.

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12-03-2012, 09:05 PM
  #519
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Zubov is the same player who lead the '93-94 Rangers team in scoring, including outscoring an offensive prime Leetch. I don't think it's so hard to believe that he would be near the top of any era of offensive defenseman. He had a great skill set and there's no shame in him being up there with Lidstrom in a pure offensive comparison.
Zubov was also only 2 points behind a late prime Bourque that year. Two.

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12-03-2012, 09:18 PM
  #520
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Zubov was also only 2 points behind a late prime Bourque that year. Two.
He also led the President's Trophy winners in scoring that season. Zubov's 1993-94 was an outstanding offensive season no matter how you look at it. His defense was certainly an adventure at that point in his career though.

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12-03-2012, 09:19 PM
  #521
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Zubov was also only 2 points behind a late prime Bourque that year. Two.
In six more games played.

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12-03-2012, 09:20 PM
  #522
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Zubov was also only 2 points behind a late prime Bourque that year. Two.
And Lidstrom was 33 points behind Zubov.

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12-03-2012, 09:25 PM
  #523
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Zubov was also only 2 points behind a late prime Bourque that year. Two.
You're cherry picking again. One career season does not put him on Bourque's level.
Just like one season from Karlsson doesn't put him up there yet either.
Just like 60ish games spread over 2 seasons doesn't put Crosby up with Jagr.

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12-03-2012, 09:31 PM
  #524
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Which Housley never did. Bourque were good at riskmanagement but so were Lidström. His ES totals are not that bad except during the '06 season.
Bourque was the KING of risk management and he was definitely far ahead of Lidstrom in that regard.

And you're right, Lidstrom's ES totals are not bad. They're not very high either.

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12-03-2012, 09:34 PM
  #525
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
You're cherry picking again. One career season does not put him on Bourque's level.
Just like one season from Karlsson doesn't put him up there yet either.
Just like 60ish games spread over 2 seasons doesn't put Crosby up with Jagr.
I didn't cherry pick 1993-94. I merely commented on it.

But while we're discussing Bourque's 1993-94, did you know Lidstrom outscored him at ES that year?

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