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Vancouver proposals(Florida, Winnipeg)

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Old
11-24-2012, 01:39 PM
  #26
sully1410
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The Kesler deal is ridiculous...and a classic case of each teams fans valuing their players highly. Bogosian projects to be a number one Defenseman and little is a top six forward that does not look out of place on the top line. He can also play wing.

Kesler would definitely be s good fit for our team, but we can't sit here and pretend that him getting injured ever year doesn't hurt his value.

Alberts is worthless.

I'd be willing to work something around Burmistrov. Great defensively, has shown to have a scoring touch. Also highly skilled.

However I seem to remember offering Burmi and Enstrom and I think a first for something around Kesler...and I got laughed at for it bring terrible even though its a gross over payment.

I think when we're talking about Kesler, you have to compare it to the Jordan Staal deal. I think Burmi has a higher ceiling the Sutter, the pick was about equal. And Dumoulin, who is a decent prospect.

I'd be willing to do Burmistrov, a first(2014), a prospect not named Schiefle or Trouba and a 2013 2nd.

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11-24-2012, 01:44 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
The Kesler deal is ridiculous...and a classic case of each teams fans valuing their players highly. Bogosian projects to be a number one Defenseman and little is a top six forward that does not look out of place on the top line. He can also play wing.

Kesler would definitely be s good fit for our team, but we can't sit here and pretend that him getting injured ever year doesn't hurt his value.

Alberts is worthless.

I'd be willing to work something around Burmistrov. Great defensively, has shown to have a scoring touch. Also highly skilled.

However I seem to remember offering Burmi and Enstrom and I think a first for something around Kesler...and I got laughed at for it bring terrible even though its a gross over payment.

I think when we're talking about Kesler, you have to compare it to the Jordan Staal deal. I think Burmi has a higher ceiling the Sutter, the pick was about equal. And Dumoulin, who is a decent prospect.

I'd be willing to do Burmistrov, a first(2014), a prospect not named Schiefle or Trouba and a 2013 2nd.
Think about this from Vancouver's perspective for a second. Specifically, are they rebuilding?

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11-24-2012, 01:45 PM
  #28
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lol guess we all will just have to disagree. i would have interest in bogosian but not little. and would have no interest in moving kesler.
as for kulikov ? id rather keep luongo. maybe im like mike gillis or crazy but i have never thought luongo is declining. infact i would consider him and schneids equal. unless im getting a deal that strenthens the team with a young physical or good sized player with skill (see kassian) that can contribute this year. then id rather stay with the status quo.

wasnt too long ago that it was a sure thing that bieksa was being traded..........
if nobody want to ante up for luongo. then dangle schneider and see what comes on the table

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11-24-2012, 03:24 PM
  #29
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It seems both team hates the second trade, with some admittance to value being decent. Based off that... I think it's a plausible deal .

In regards to the first trade, I feel we(Canucks) are giving up way too much. Cannauton and Sweatt are both good B level prospects, and are making their way up into the NHL. I only added so much from our side to entice a Florida Fan base who really does over-value their prospects.

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11-24-2012, 05:09 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Think about this from Vancouver's perspective for a second. Specifically, are they rebuilding?
Nope, definitely not. But his value is on par with Jordan Staal's, albeit a bit higher as Kes is more proven and has a selke, however that was on the second line role where Jordan has played third his entire career.

It may not be a deal that you like, and that's ok, but Kesler is not worth future top pairing Defenseman and a top six forward. No way in hell.

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11-24-2012, 05:23 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
Nope, definitely not. But his value is on par with Jordan Staal's, albeit a bit higher as Kes is more proven and has a selke, however that was on the second line role where Jordan has played third his entire career.

It may not be a deal that you like, and that's ok, but Kesler is not worth future top pairing Defenseman and a top six forward. No way in hell.
I'd trade a top pairing dman and top 6 forward for a rh dman equal to Kesler.

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11-24-2012, 05:40 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
Nope, definitely not. But his value is on par with Jordan Staal's, albeit a bit higher as Kes is more proven and has a selke, however that was on the second line role where Jordan has played third his entire career.

It may not be a deal that you like, and that's ok, but Kesler is not worth future top pairing Defenseman and a top six forward. No way in hell.
Kesler > Staal

Sutter > Burmistrov, 8th overall > 2014 1st, Dumoulin > Jets prospect.

Your deal is worse in every way than the Staal deal. Also, Pittsburgh had to trade Staal because he was leaving at the end of the year. Kesler on a great contract, with no desire to be moved, and a much greater need to his team makes him more valuable. It's a really bad proposal, and the OP being bad has nothing to do with yours.

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11-24-2012, 07:03 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Kesler > Staal

Sutter > Burmistrov, 8th overall > 2014 1st, Dumoulin > Jets prospect.

Your deal is worse in every way than the Staal deal. Also, Pittsburgh had to trade Staal because he was leaving at the end of the year. Kesler on a great contract, with no desire to be moved, and a much greater need to his team makes him more valuable. It's a really bad proposal, and the OP being bad has nothing to do with yours.
And this is based on what exactly?

I would disagree with Kes being actually better then Staal, hd has proven more...but better, I doubt it. As I already indicated, Kesler did get more minutes on the second line, and got more time on the pp. where as Staal has been stuck behind Crosby and Malkin for most of his career.

You'd have to wait and see which is better Sutter and Burmi. Burmi jus finished his second season and has demonstrated that he excels on the PK and the defensive side of the game. He's offensive numbers have shown remarkable improvement and its no mystery that he was rushed into the NHL. Sutter hasn't really progressed past his current plateau. Pretty soon to say if Burmi will go the same way or not.

I think saying that Sutter is better is premature, since he has never progressed past the third line. Granted he is a good third line centre.

Also how the hell do you know where our first rd pick is going to be in 2014? For all you know, we could be drafting 1st overall.

Pittsburgh got pretty good value for Staal, and I don't think Kes's value is much different.

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11-24-2012, 07:10 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
And this is based on what exactly?

I would disagree with Kes being actually better then Staal, hd has proven more...but better, I doubt it. As I already indicated, Kesler did get more minutes on the second line, and got more time on the pp. where as Staal has been stuck behind Crosby and Malkin for most of his career.

You'd have to wait and see which is better Sutter and Burmi. Burmi jus finished his second season and has demonstrated that he excels on the PK and the defensive side of the game. He's offensive numbers have shown remarkable improvement and its no mystery that he was rushed into the NHL. Sutter hasn't really progressed past his current plateau. Pretty soon to say if Burmi will go the same way or not.

I think saying that Sutter is better is premature, since he has never progressed past the third line. Granted he is a good third line centre.

Also how the hell do you know where our first rd pick is going to be in 2014? For all you know, we could be drafting 1st overall.

Pittsburgh got pretty good value for Staal, and I don't think Kes's value is much different.
Kesler is locked long-term, Staal had only a year left and intended to walk.

A pick in 2012 > then a pick in 2014, because it can contribute sooner. Not to mention 8th overall is a pretty high pick, and who says you'll be drafting earlier than then? Forsberg and Grigorenko were both on the board at that point, would you trade your 2014 1st for either of them?

And Sutter is proven as a great third liner. Burmistrov may end up becoming a better player, but why should we shoulder the risk of whether he pans out or not?

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Old
11-24-2012, 07:15 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
And this is based on what exactly?

I would disagree with Kes being actually better then Staal, hd has proven more...but better, I doubt it. As I already indicated, Kesler did get more minutes on the second line, and got more time on the pp. where as Staal has been stuck behind Crosby and Malkin for most of his career.

You'd have to wait and see which is better Sutter and Burmi. Burmi jus finished his second season and has demonstrated that he excels on the PK and the defensive side of the game. He's offensive numbers have shown remarkable improvement and its no mystery that he was rushed into the NHL. Sutter hasn't really progressed past his current plateau. Pretty soon to say if Burmi will go the same way or not.

I think saying that Sutter is better is premature, since he has never progressed past the third line. Granted he is a good third line centre.

Also how the hell do you know where our first rd pick is going to be in 2014? For all you know, we could be drafting 1st overall.

Pittsburgh got pretty good value for Staal, and I don't think Kes's value is much different.
Kesler with 4y at 5mil >>> Staal with 1y at 4mil. Don't be obtuse.

Sutter is better right now, I think it's pretty obvious. Burmi could very well end up being the better player, but as of right now I'd say Sutter has a bit more value. Disagree if you want.

A guaranteed 8th overall pick is worth more than an unknown 1st rounder two years in the future.


Really the only point there that is debatable is Sutter > Burmi, but I would much rather have Sutter, and I imagine most teams feel the same. Regardless of how you view the value of your players/picks/prospects, it's definitely not something the Canucks would consider. They're trying to compete for cups, not rebuild.

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11-24-2012, 08:02 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Kesler with 4y at 5mil >>> Staal with 1y at 4mil. Don't be obtuse.

Sutter is better right now, I think it's pretty obvious. Burmi could very well end up being the better player, but as of right now I'd say Sutter has a bit more value. Disagree if you want.

A guaranteed 8th overall pick is worth more than an unknown 1st rounder two years in the future.


Really the only point there that is debatable is Sutter > Burmi, but I would much rather have Sutter, and I imagine most teams feel the same. Regardless of how you view the value of your players/picks/prospects, it's definitely not something the Canucks would consider. They're trying to compete for cups, not rebuild.
I'm not being obtuse, but I kinda think your over valuing the extra years of Kesler here. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Vancouver should trade Kesler. They are a far less impressive without him. I'm just giving you what I would trade for Kesler. There's no way that a guy like Kesler would fetch more then kovalchuk, or hossa, or Staal or whatever. He's a great two way player, but it's not like he's a superstar or anything.

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11-24-2012, 08:46 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
I'm not being obtuse, but I kinda think your over valuing the extra years of Kesler here. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Vancouver should trade Kesler. They are a far less impressive without him. I'm just giving you what I would trade for Kesler. There's no way that a guy like Kesler would fetch more then kovalchuk, or hossa, or Staal or whatever. He's a great two way player, but it's not like he's a superstar or anything.
Okay. Agree to disagree that players signed to below-market-value, long-term deals are worth significantly more than UFA rentals. Agree to agree that it's a terrible trade for a Canucks team with short term cup aspirations.

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11-24-2012, 11:33 PM
  #38
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Kulikov is an RFA defensman.

Theodore is a past his prime goalie (we've seen what he can do in the Northwest Division).

Im not sure how Vancouver had to add on top of Luongo here....makes NO sense.

By the way, when did Kulikov become better than Brian Campbell. I didn't watch a ton of the Panthers last year, but I'm not even sure if Kulikov was the #3 defensman on the team.

It's become increasingly popular to rag on anything Luongo on these boards, but its quite clear Vancouver gives up the clear cut best player in the deal.

I'd prefer Gudbranson anyway.

Winnipeg deal doesn't work for either team.

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11-25-2012, 01:42 AM
  #39
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Okay. Agree to disagree that players signed to below-market-value, long-term deals are worth significantly more than UFA rentals. Agree to agree that it's a terrible trade for a Canucks team with short term cup aspirations.
And that is part of why he is so great for Vancouver. He clearly loves the org, and coming from Winnipeg I had the privilege to watch him come up through the AHL, and he is one of my favourite players.

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11-25-2012, 01:53 AM
  #40
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Kulikov is an RFA defensman.

Theodore is a past his prime goalie (we've seen what he can do in the Northwest Division).

Im not sure how Vancouver had to add on top of Luongo here....makes NO sense.

By the way, when did Kulikov become better than Brian Campbell. I didn't watch a ton of the Panthers last year, but I'm not even sure if Kulikov was the #3 defensman on the team.

It's become increasingly popular to rag on anything Luongo on these boards, but its quite clear Vancouver gives up the clear cut best player in the deal.

I'd prefer Gudbranson anyway.

Winnipeg deal doesn't work for either team.
Wow, just wow.

No words.

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11-25-2012, 05:53 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post

I would disagree with Kes being actually better then Staal, hd has proven more...but better, I doubt it.
On what basis do you make this assertion?

I just can't understand what your criteria is. Kesler has more points per season, more points overall, he's passed 40 goals in a season while Stall has never hit 30. And Kesler has won a major award - Selke - for being the best defensive player. He is elite defensively. I'm just not sure on what you can base the claim that "Stall is either equal or better than Kesler" (paraphrased, but that is what is logically entailed by you statement).


I understand Stall has been held back because of Pittsburgh's center depth.

... [Time Lapse]

Ok I just checked their ice time over the last 4 years. While I still realize Stall was held back due to depth, I also now realize that Stall wasn't held back THAT much. Why do I say that? Because Stall got more ice time per game than Kesler. That one surprised me. Stall averaged just over 20 min/game over the last 4 years, while Kesler averaged just under 20 min/game.


So getting over 20 minutes a game Stall has never passed 50 points in a season. I still believe he will improve his game and his production significantly, because he has had pretty mediocre linemates. But at the same time, Kesler has been seemingly attached at the hip to Mason "no one wants me for free" Raymond, and one of the many other tweeners thrown at him. Last season it was primarily Booth, and up to this point Booth hasn't played up to his potential. So Kesler has not been given very good linemates to work with either, up to this point.

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11-25-2012, 02:46 PM
  #42
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I hate both deals. Kulikov and Bogosian would be great on this team, but neither team would want to make these trades.

Florida doesn't need a goalie, so Kulikov is a total overpayment (think about the number of Leaf proposals shoving pieces we don't the an upgrade for down our throats...not cool right?).

As for Kesler, I think Winnipeg needs Kesler more then we'd need Bogo. That's not a shot at Bogo, or an endorsement of the trade from their side, its just with Edler and Hamhuis, we have a couple of top pairing guys on two different pairings, and another one just doesn't make up for the value lost in Kesler for me.

Big pass from me, from most Canuck fans, and I'm sure nearly all Panthers and Jets fans.

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11-25-2012, 02:56 PM
  #43
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Nevermind, just woke up and was confused.

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11-25-2012, 04:04 PM
  #44
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I hate both deals. Kulikov and Bogosian would be great on this team, but neither team would want to make these trades.

Florida doesn't need a goalie, so Kulikov is a total overpayment (think about the number of Leaf proposals shoving pieces we don't the an upgrade for down our throats...not cool right?).

As for Kesler, I think Winnipeg needs Kesler more then we'd need Bogo. That's not a shot at Bogo, or an endorsement of the trade from their side, its just with Edler and Hamhuis, we have a couple of top pairing guys on two different pairings, and another one just doesn't make up for the value lost in Kesler for me.

Big pass from me, from most Canuck fans, and I'm sure nearly all Panthers and Jets fans.
We need Bogo more than we need Kesler. And that's not a shot at Kesler either.

At C we have Jokinen, Little, Burmistrov, Slater, and Scheifele coming up. On D, Bogo is our best defensive defenseman, and was paired with Hainsey in that role last year. Enstrom and Buff don't take the tough minutes that Bogo does. Stuart and Clitsome can't handle the minutes, nor the opponents that Bogo does either.

Losing Bogosian to add Kesler would cause more problems than it would solve.

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11-25-2012, 04:19 PM
  #45
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On what basis do you make this assertion?

I just can't understand what your criteria is. Kesler has more points per season, more points overall, he's passed 40 goals in a season while Stall has never hit 30. And Kesler has won a major award - Selke - for being the best defensive player. He is elite defensively. I'm just not sure on what you can base the claim that "Stall is either equal or better than Kesler" (paraphrased, but that is what is logically entailed by you statement).


I understand Stall has been held back because of Pittsburgh's center depth.

... [Time Lapse]

Ok I just checked their ice time over the last 4 years. While I still realize Stall was held back due to depth, I also now realize that Stall wasn't held back THAT much. Why do I say that? Because Stall got more ice time per game than Kesler. That one surprised me. Stall averaged just over 20 min/game over the last 4 years, while Kesler averaged just under 20 min/game.


So getting over 20 minutes a game Stall has never passed 50 points in a season. I still believe he will improve his game and his production significantly, because he has had pretty mediocre linemates. But at the same time, Kesler has been seemingly attached at the hip to Mason "no one wants me for free" Raymond, and one of the many other tweeners thrown at him. Last season it was primarily Booth, and up to this point Booth hasn't played up to his potential. So Kesler has not been given very good linemates to work with either, up to this point.
That is surprising.

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11-25-2012, 06:33 PM
  #46
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Wow, just wow.

No words.
Wait until you hear what he considers fair value from the panthers for luongo.

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11-25-2012, 06:39 PM
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We need Bogo more than we need Kesler. And that's not a shot at Kesler either.

At C we have Jokinen, Little, Burmistrov, Slater, and Scheifele coming up. On D, Bogo is our best defensive defenseman, and was paired with Hainsey in that role last year. Enstrom and Buff don't take the tough minutes that Bogo does. Stuart and Clitsome can't handle the minutes, nor the opponents that Bogo does either.

Losing Bogosian to add Kesler would cause more problems than it would solve.
Don't get me wrong, I meant to imply nothing of the sort. Bogosian is a key piece in the machine that is the Winnipeg Jets.

None of the C's you mention are close to Kesler's skill, I feel anyway, and Bogosian is at least top 4 (a key top four, not by default), certainly a top 2 defender on the Jets, and is going to be a top defender in this league for a long time, probably as a true number one....but what I am saying is we have 2 top line defenders already. Kesler's a better fit on the Jets, Bogo is a better fit on the Jets (he is better then Entstrom and Byfuglien as a defender to rely upon)...and this trade doesn't suit either side particularly well.

I agree with the last statement, and from our end, losing Kesler and getting Bogosian would cause more problems then it would solve here as well.

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11-25-2012, 06:53 PM
  #48
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Don't get me wrong, I meant to imply nothing of the sort. Bogosian is a key piece in the machine that is the Winnipeg Jets.

None of the C's you mention are close to Kesler's skill, I feel anyway, and Bogosian is at least top 4 (a key top four, not by default), certainly a top 2 defender on the Jets, and is going to be a top defender in this league for a long time, probably as a true number one....but what I am saying is we have 2 top line defenders already. Kesler's a better fit on the Jets, Bogo is a better fit on the Jets (he is better then Entstrom and Byfuglien as a defender to rely upon)...and this trade doesn't suit either side particularly well.

I agree with the last statement, and from our end, losing Kesler and getting Bogosian would cause more problems then it would solve here as well.
I agree with what you are saying. I didn't mean to imply that I thought you were saying we needed Kesler more than Bogo. I could have worded that better I guess.

And I agree that Kesler is better than all the centres I mentioned.

Just trying to get across the last sentence (which it seems we agree on), that while getting Kesler would be great for the Jets, losing Bogosian to do it would do more harm than good to the Jets.

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11-25-2012, 08:15 PM
  #49
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Kesler proposals are a waste of time. Due to becoming injury prone, his value has dropped somewhat significantly, at least in compared to what could have been expected a year ago. Of course, to the Canucks his injuries make no difference and they would demand an obscene overpayment all the same. Therefore, he is essentially untradeable no matter how you spin it.

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11-26-2012, 07:10 PM
  #50
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second proposal is self esteem destroyer.

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