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Old
11-30-2012, 10:50 AM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Facts are:

Atleast the realistic fans here have said yes he is a 24 - 29 goal scorer, he is fast, he is willing to be hit.
In terms of Grabovski's own teammates how many other players can we say that about?.

Therefore in terms on the league's centers ranking is one thing, while a comparative contribution to his team verses his own teammates is another, where he would come out ahead of most at present.

Burke made Grabovski the Leafs highest paid forward when he signed him to his recent contract, that is a reflection on what the teams GM thinks on his contributions, don't they?

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11-30-2012, 11:14 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Burke made Grabovski the Leafs highest paid forward when he signed him to his recent contract, that is a reflection on what the teams GM thinks on his contributions, don't they?
We will see, resigning a player is not a vote of confidence necessarily. I wouldn't be surprised if Burke traded Grabo in the next 1.5 years if we do become a better team.

This whole excercise of looking at past successful team's #2 and #3 center's points to the the fact Grabo will not be part of a winning franchise. Given the player comparison's and what some call coincidences Grabo has never been on a winning team at the NHL level, kind of points to the obvious. He's not a good fit on a good team, certainly not one that wants to compete for the cup.

If so, someone prove to me by using either fact or fact based reasoning he is.

Not just he's a great #2C, corsi crap C for this team.

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11-30-2012, 11:20 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
We will see, resigning a player is not a vote of confidence necessarily. I wouldn't be surprised if Burke traded Grabo in the next 1.5 years if we do become a better team.

This whole excercise of looking at past successful team's #2 and #3 center's points to the the fact Grabo will not be part of a winning franchise. Given the player comparison's and what some call coincidences Grabo has never been on a winning team at the NHL level, kind of points to the obvious. He's not a good fit on a good team, certainly not one that wants to compete for the cup.

If so, someone prove to me by using either fact or fact based reasoning he is.

Not just he's a great #2C, corsi crap C for this team.
Which good, Cup competing Team has he been part of that proves he didn't fit?

Again your opinions aren't facts.

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11-30-2012, 11:22 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
Which good, Cup competing Team has he been part of that proves he didn't fit?

Again your opinions aren't facts.
Did I say they were? But basing them on facts is something that you sorely missed.

Better than blurting out Grabo is a great #2C, based on what? He's the fanboy's favorite player.

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11-30-2012, 11:24 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Did I say they were? But basing them on facts is something that you sorely missed.

Better than blurting out Grabo is a great #2C, based on what?
as I said earlier and probably should have just stuck to that, knock yourself out.

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11-30-2012, 11:26 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
as I said earlier and probably should have just stuck to that, knock yourself out.
Still not replying to my post I posted twice, avoiding, running, I got you. It would be easier for you to just admit you couldn't find a non fact in my post.

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11-30-2012, 11:30 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Facts are:

- Grabo has not seen a playoff game since 06-07, no coincidence this guy is a loser.

- 29 assists is his career high, good playmaker?

- He has never played well without Kule or Mac, see him with Frattin, Blake, Kessel

- He's not particularly good on faceoffs, or why did we trade for Steckel or use even Bozak and Connolly before Grabs on key faceoffs, he brings zero physical edge to a team, he's not a strong leader. Things that Bergeron, Richards bring to a team in spades.

He is a mediocre #2C, who would be a bubble #3C on a contending team.

Just who would he bump off as the checking 3C on the last 4 Cup winners? Staal, Boland, Kelly, Stoll. Is Grabo better than any of them Penalty killing, winning faceoffs, or bringing grit these players bring to the table.

Instead of saying he is a great #2c, why don't the Grabo enablers bring up his weaknesses?

Atleast the realistic fans here have said yes he is a 24 - 29 goal scorer, he is fast, he is willing to be hit.

But we also see his many weaknesses or limitations, he has terrible ice vision, he is not a good playmaker, and he has almost zero intangibles. At 29 in 2 months, the chances of him developing further are almost nil.

Another argument I always hear is he needs a 30 goal 60 point winger, do people forget Kule? 30g 27 assists, 3 points shy of 60 points? The net result was a career high 29 assists. Need further proof enablers?
I like facts which is why I agree with your post 100%. Grabovski...got nothing against him but its hard to argue that he cannot be improved upon. He is a decent centerman but I don't believe he would flourish in an NHL Playoff run.....I really don't. But he is not alone.....I don't think there are many Leaf players who would. That is a big problem to me on this team. Ill take a mediocre regular season performer who turns it up when it counts than the reverse. Everyday.

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11-30-2012, 11:31 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
I like facts which is why I agree with your post 100%. Grabovski...got nothing against him but its hard to argue that he cannot be improved upon. He is a decent centerman but I don't believe he would flourish in an NHL Playoff run.....I really don't. But he is not alone.....I don't think there are many Leaf players who would. That is a big problem to me on this team. Ill take a mediocre regular season performer who turns it up when it counts than the reverse. Everyday.
Thanks, obcourse it was factual and why he couldn't dispute it. I pointed out Grabo's 3 strengths, why is it so hard for his fans to not see his weaknesses? That's the fustrating part for some of us.

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11-30-2012, 11:49 AM
  #234
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If Grabo can kick in 25-30 goals a season, here's a switch I may be willing to keep him as a winger for this team, but there is no way a team can contend for a cup with this guy as a top 6C or a 3 role play checking C due to his limited hockey assets. He is a shooter first, playmaking challenged fwd. He is better suited as a winger. He will be our Alex Semin, a scorer with little intangibles. If he can play wing and we can keep him away from Kessel, as he will stunt Phil's creativity by hogging the puck, I will be happy to keep him as a 2nd line winger.

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11-30-2012, 12:15 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
I like facts which is why I agree with your post 100%. Grabovski...got nothing against him but its hard to argue that he cannot be improved upon. He is a decent centerman but I don't believe he would flourish in an NHL Playoff run.....I really don't. But he is not alone.....I don't think there are many Leaf players who would. That is a big problem to me on this team. Ill take a mediocre regular season performer who turns it up when it counts than the reverse. Everyday.
Agreed he can be improved upon, that goes for most players. I've never been a big Grabo fan.

Surrounded by better players there is no reason to think he wouldn't flourish in the Playoffs. You can't deny his heart and determination wouldn't show up.

No reason to think he couldn't play #2 on any Team in the League.

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11-30-2012, 01:12 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Facts are:

- Grabo has not seen a playoff game since 06-07, no coincidence this guy is a loser.

- 29 assists is his career high, good playmaker?

- He has never played well without Kule or Mac, see him with Frattin, Blake, Kessel

- He's not particularly good on faceoffs, or why did we trade for Steckel or use even Bozak and Connolly before Grabs on key faceoffs, he brings zero physical edge to a team, he's not a strong leader. Things that Bergeron, Richards bring to a team in spades.

He is a mediocre #2C, who would be a bubble #3C on a contending team.

Just who would he bump off as the checking 3C on the last 4 Cup winners? Staal, Boland, Kelly, Stoll. Is Grabo better than any of them Penalty killing, winning faceoffs, or bringing grit these players bring to the table.

Instead of saying he is a great #2c, why don't the Grabo enablers bring up his weaknesses?

Atleast the realistic fans here have said yes he is a 24 - 29 goal scorer, he is fast, he is willing to be hit.

But we also see his many weaknesses or limitations, he has terrible ice vision, he is not a good playmaker, and he has almost zero intangibles. At 29 in 2 months, the chances of him developing further are almost nil.

Another argument I always hear is he needs a 30 goal 60 point winger, do people forget Kule? 30g 27 assists, 3 points shy of 60 points? The net result was a career high 29 assists. Need further proof enablers?
You use the term facts very loosely. I believe there were two facts in there that I bolded.

And how you have the chances of him improving being "Nil"??? So virtually every player in the history of the NHL has maxxed out at the age of 28????

How do you know he's not a strong leader??? I've seen him carry games on his back!

Not physical?? He's been pounded into the ground by giants only to come back and score goals. There is more to being physical than highlight hits. He puts it all on the line and risks everything which to me is playing physical and also a good leader.

There is ZERO evidence to suggest where he would fit on another team. You could never tell how he would gel with another player on another team so the point is just flat out ridiculous and stupid.


Why would any Grabo fan have to tell you his weaknesses?? You seem to have an easy enough time inventing them yourself!

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11-30-2012, 01:14 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
I like facts which is why I agree with your post 100%. Grabovski...got nothing against him but its hard to argue that he cannot be improved upon. He is a decent centerman but I don't believe he would flourish in an NHL Playoff run.....I really don't. But he is not alone.....I don't think there are many Leaf players who would. That is a big problem to me on this team. Ill take a mediocre regular season performer who turns it up when it counts than the reverse. Everyday.
Since you like facts so much, how could you possibly critique his value during a playoff run!

Maybe next time you should start your sentence: I like facts (I just don't use them or provide them)

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11-30-2012, 01:17 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
Since you like facts so much, how could you possibly critique his value during a playoff run!

Maybe next time you should start your sentence: I like facts (I just don't use them or provide them)
Just a hunch...but if he continues his career with the Leafs we may never find out for sure.

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11-30-2012, 01:35 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Can't address a factual post, your attempt at misdirection is actually the one of a clown's act.

Did Grabo not play with a 30 goal winger? Fact one, fact two, he has not played in a playoff game since the 06-07 season, fact 3 for all those that say he would be a monster in the playoffs, thus far his playoff stats are 32 games, 13 points.

Which fact is unfactual?
Why do you keep avoiding the great players that I listed who haven't made the playoffs or in the case of 1 that has made it once in his 9 year career? Those are actual facts. So I want to know if you think they are also losers? I mean if they're so great why couldn't they get their teams to the playoffs?

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11-30-2012, 01:42 PM
  #240
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I laugh at those who say he is a 3C on a contending team. Please. Grabo is a 2C. How is he not. He does everything we need out of a 2C.

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11-30-2012, 01:50 PM
  #241
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The majority of claims made on these forums are observations based on watching them play, without any quantifiable evidence to support them.

I think you need to look up what the definition of trolling is. Apparently people are only allowed to state their observations and opinions if they coincide with the majority?

I will let it go, though, since it's obvious that we won't convince each other, no matter how many facts, and stats are used for the arguments.
No. I think I'm okay with the definition of trolling, and like soccer / football there is something called infringement where the rule does not have to be broken just infringed upon.
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11-30-2012, 02:13 PM
  #242
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Why do you keep avoiding the great players that I listed who haven't made the playoffs or in the case of 1 that has made it once in his 9 year career? Those are actual facts. So I want to know if you think they are also losers? I mean if they're so great why couldn't they get their teams to the playoffs?
Your question is silly and you know it, but atleast I will not avoid it like you the Grabo enabler with a blindfold does mine.

Columbus made the playoffs primarily on his 40 goal, 79 pt season season, in the 08-09 season. Take a guess how far back the next player on the team was in goals and points. Not even on the same radar. Point 1, he makes a difference even on a crap team. Has Grabo?

Rick Nash is often one of the first players that is an automatic pick when we select a national team, he has been part of 05, 07 Silver medal teams.

He was part of the best of the best on Canada's best line in the Gold medal winning team in Vancouver.

Point 2, evidence he has proven he can be part of successful and deep teams, but don't listen to me, listen to Babcock what he said about Nash. http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/02/...ings-practice/

Point 3 Stamkos has played in the playoffs, Tavares has won gold for Team Canada. Both these players have proven they are capable of playing on rosters when the depth is championship caliber.

Your turn has Grabo ever demonstrated any of the qualities I just answered?

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11-30-2012, 02:15 PM
  #243
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I laugh at those who say he is a 3C on a contending team. Please. Grabo is a 2C. How is he not. He does everything we need out of a 2C.
You tell us, what has Grabo done that leads you to believe this?

Please no, Grabo is a great #2C, he will be a monster in the playoffs, he is a warrior standard stock answers we are so used to reading.

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11-30-2012, 02:36 PM
  #244
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Your question is silly and you know it, but atleast I will not avoid it like you the Grabo enabler with a blindfold does mine.

Columbus made the playoffs primarily on his 40 goal, 79 pt season season, in the 08-09 season. Take a guess how far back the next player on the team was in goals and points. Not even on the same radar. Point 1, he makes a difference even on a crap team. Has Grabo?

Rick Nash is often one of the first players that is an automatic pick when we select a national team, he has been part of 05, 07 Silver medal teams.

He was part of the best of the best on Canada's best line in the Gold medal winning team in Vancouver.

Point 2, evidence he has proven he can be part of successful and deep teams, but don't listen to me, listen to Babcock what he said about Nash. http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/02/...ings-practice/

Point 3 Stamkos has played in the playoffs, Tavares has won gold for Team Canada. Both these players have proven they are capable of playing on rosters when the depth is championship caliber.

Your turn has Grabo ever demonstrated any of the qualities I just answered?
1. I never listed Stamkos as someone who hasn't made the playoffs.

2. Nash also had the pleasure of having a hot rookie goalie to play in front of all season.

3. What does Tavares playing for the WJ have to do with playoffs? If you want to go the international route Grabo is always far and away the best player on his squad, he does everything. Also, Tavares while great for team Canada, had a fantastic supporting cast, It helps. The main point is that it's a fact that Tavares has never played a pro playoff game which is the point that you were trying to prove why Grabo is a "loser".

4. Kessel and according to you the all great Kulemin, teammates of Grabo also haven't made the playoffs(in Kessel's case, since he joined the Leafs). So are they losers?

Why is it that players more talented than Grabo are having difficulty making the playoffs?

Out of all the players that have made the playoffs, you should really start looking at their TEAMS!

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11-30-2012, 02:41 PM
  #245
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1. I never listed Stamkos as someone who hasn't made the playoffs.

2. Nash also had the pleasure of having a hot rookie goalie to play in front of all season.

3. What does Tavares playing for the WJ have to do with playoffs? If you want to go the international route Grabo is always far and away the best player on his squad, he does everything. Also, Tavares while great for team Canada, had a fantastic supporting cast, It helps. The main point is that it's a fact that Tavares has never played a pro playoff game which is the point that you were trying to prove why Grabo is a "loser".

4. Kessel and according to you the all great Kulemin, teammates of Grabo also haven't made the playoffs(in Kessel's case, since he joined the Leafs). So are they losers?

Why is it that players more talented than Grabo are having difficulty making the playoffs?

Out of all the players that have made the playoffs, you should really start looking at their TEAMS!
Has it ever entered your mind, why I pointed out good players play on good teams because they are quality players.

Then you should wonder why Grabo is always a piece on a mediocre to bad team.

Think for a second, I would answer this for you but I hope you are capable of taking off the blindfold and answering it for yourself.

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11-30-2012, 02:52 PM
  #246
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No doubt that any of the 16 Teams who made the Playoffs last year would have if Grabovski had been a member.....not a chance.

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11-30-2012, 04:50 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Has it ever entered your mind, why I pointed out good players play on good teams because they are quality players.

Then you should wonder why Grabo is always a piece on a mediocre to bad team.

Think for a second, I would answer this for you but I hope you are capable of taking off the blindfold and answering it for yourself.
I am sorry your arguments are a joke, hockey is a team sport and weak links are what effect outcomes.

Coaching System, Tending, Offense, Defense.

Grabovski has demonstrated he has talent and can put up points. His overall stats pt wise place him top 30 amongst nhl centers two years running. He has generally been top 3 in plus minus and corsi (team). He is not a defensive liability at all. His lnemates were weak last year but that should not reflect so much on Grabo watching mac turn it over repeatedly and Kules just not showing up.

Bozak 1C terrible for a 1c

Lombardi nothing but speed lately

Connolly, performed under expectations. He is not a bad C maybe not a good fit but not bad. Injuries.

Steckel good in that middle lane on the pk and faceoffs

Two of those guys are pretty much Burkes belief in giving guys a second chance after injury. Connolly may do better under Carlyle in the long run. Remember he started at ppg pace and has great vision.


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11-30-2012, 05:02 PM
  #248
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Hasn't Grabo just been on 2 teams? Montreal and Toronto right? Montreal was horrible and we suck as well.
That means Grabo sucks?

Bringing up points in the AHL playoffs, I think we can all agree that Grabo was a bit of a late bloomer. I remember saying that if he could put it all together he would be a pretty good player. He seems to have done just that so why would those stats even be relevant?

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11-30-2012, 05:04 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Has it ever entered your mind, why I pointed out good players play on good teams because they are quality players.

Then you should wonder why Grabo is always a piece on a mediocre to bad team.

Think for a second, I would answer this for you but I hope you are capable of taking off the blindfold and answering it for yourself.
Has it ever entered your mind that playoff teams have tried to acquire him but Burke refused to give him up because he's a quality asset?

Maybe because he's really only played for 1 team.

Think for a second, I would answer this for you but I hope you are capable of taking off the blindfold and answering it for yourself.

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11-30-2012, 05:06 PM
  #250
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Hasn't Grabo just been on 2 teams? Montreal and Toronto right? Montreal was horrible and we suck as well.
That means Grabo sucks?

Bringing up points in the AHL playoffs, I think we can all agree that Grabo was a bit of a late bloomer. I remember saying that if he could put it all together he would be a pretty good player. He seems to have done just that so why would those stats even be relevant?
Because they're the only stats that he can hang onto to keep his belief that Grabo sucks.

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