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Old
12-10-2012, 12:34 AM
  #476
Bomber0104
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
Incorrect, this is even strength time, of which grabovski had 1,232 minutes that year. That is a total of about 171 minutes together at even strength. In an entire season.
Okay so about 8-10 of even strength time together. I guess I shouldn't have included PP time but that doesn't mean they couldn't have played PP and ES together like Lupul. Bozak and Kessel do now.

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12-10-2012, 12:36 AM
  #477
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You don't really seem to understand the flaw with this argument. It has nothing to do with first line or second line. It has to do with drawing a causal link between the Leafs lack of success and Grabovski specifically. You guys are actually dumb enough to think that the Leafs are better without him. Or at least I assume you are from what you're saying, and Interactif has come right out and said it
I never said they'd be "better" without him thank you very much. I'm saying the Leafs are going to need WAY BETTER PLAYERS THAN THEY CURRENTLY HAVE if they even want to make the playoffs for the first time in a decade of which Grabovski and Bozak are prime examples of as well as Reimer and many more bums up and down the depth chart.

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12-10-2012, 12:40 AM
  #478
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Okay so about 8-10 of even strength time together. I guess I shouldn't have included PP time but that doesn't mean they couldn't have played PP and ES together like Lupul. Bozak and Kessel do now.
I don't recall them spending much if any time on a PP unit together. Statistics back this up, Kessel was played with pretty much everyone in the top 6 except Grabovski and Hagman on the PP.

And you're making the mistake of lumping all that icetime into one chunk of time. It wasn't. They didnt spend 10 games together only to be split up when it went poorly. It was spread throughout the season. They never spent a significant stretch on a line together.

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12-10-2012, 12:45 AM
  #479
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
First of all it was during 2009/10 so get your years right.

I was not wrong about 2010-11 at all. They played over 200 minutes together, the team tanked, and Wilson kept them separated for the rest of his time with the Leafs.
No, they didn't. You said this once, were corrected, and now you've just kept right on saying it. It's a major underlying theme in this thread.

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12-10-2012, 12:45 AM
  #480
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
I don't recall them spending much if any time on a PP unit together. Statistics back this up, Kessel was played with pretty much everyone in the top 6 except Grabovski and Hagman on the PP.

And you're making the mistake of lumping all that icetime into one chunk of time. It wasn't. They didnt spend 10 games together only to be split up when it went poorly. It was spread throughout the season. They never spent a significant stretch on a line together.
And they never spent that time together because the two played very poorly together at both ends of the ice. Exactly my point in the first place.

Kessel doesn't gel with Grabovski. At all. Period. Tried and failed.

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12-10-2012, 12:47 AM
  #481
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
No, they didn't. You said this once, were corrected, and now you've just kept right on saying it. It's a major underlying theme in this thread.
Whether it's ES or PP time, they played over 200 minutes together.

Spin it any way, they didn't gel together and both the first and second line collapsed when they were playing together.

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12-10-2012, 12:50 AM
  #482
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Whether it's ES or PP time, they played over 200 minutes together.

Spin it any way, they didn't gel together and both the first and second line collapsed when they were playing together.
No...they didn't. They did not play on the PP together. They played about 170 minutes in an entire season together. Over 82 games. This does not amount to a failed line combination. Most of those minutes were Kessel being double-shifted to avoid defensive matchups.

I'm starting to think you don't really understand hockey al lthat well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
And they never spent that time together because the two played very poorly together at both ends of the ice. Exactly my point in the first place.


you're backpedaling yourself into a knot my friend. you're saying they didnt spend that time together because you were right about what happened during the time they spent together that they actually never spent together. wuuuuuuuuuuuut

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12-10-2012, 12:54 AM
  #483
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
No...they didn't. They did not play on the PP together. They played about 170 minutes in an entire season together. Over 82 games. This does not amount to a failed line combination. Most of those minutes were Kessel being double-shifted to avoid defensive matchups.

I'm starting to think you don't really understand hockey al lthat well.
They played 170 ES minutes and zero PP. Okay.

Those 170 ES minutes failed and resulted in a very timid first line that got crushed defensively and provided no offence and crippled the former KGM second line.

Sorry but I'm starting to think you don't remember the games or know hockey that well either. You can multiply, I'll give you that and know a cool website that I didn't know.

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12-10-2012, 12:58 AM
  #484
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
you're backpedaling yourself into a knot my friend. you're saying they didnt spend that time together because you were right about what happened during the time they spent together that they actually never spent together. wuuuuuuuuuuuut
No backpedalling at all actually.

They spend a considerable amount of time together (170 minutes or about 8-10 games worth of ES time) and the result was a terrible line. That idea was quickly discontinued and was never tried again by Wilson because Grabo and Kessel didn't click.

If Grabo was this fictional second line centre on a good team that some of you think, then why can't he play first line on a really bad team and with one of its best players?

It's because he is not as talented as you think!

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12-10-2012, 12:59 AM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
They played 170 ES minutes and zero PP. Okay.

Those 170 ES minutes failed and resulted in a very timid first line that got crushed defensively and provided no offence and crippled the former KGM second line.

Sorry but I'm starting to think you don't remember the games or know hockey that well either. You can multiply, I'll give you that and know a cool website that I didn't know.
That's the thing, though. They were never a line. You pulled that out of thin air. Kessel got double shifted with Grabovski. I remember it just fine. Kessel's centers were Stajan and then Bozak in 09-10. Stajan didn't work out because he's slow and not very good, Bozak was brought in and they were never separated. In 10-11 it was Mac-Grabo-Kulemin all day every day.

Brief line juggling and double shifting is not a basis for an argument here unless you try to make it into something it wasn't. The reason Grabovski and Kessel aren't on a line together is well understood. It's not because Grabovski sucks, it's quite the opposite. It's because he's quite good, and gives us a second offensive threat.


Last edited by bunjay: 12-10-2012 at 01:07 AM.
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Old
12-10-2012, 01:05 AM
  #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
If Grabo was this fictional second line centre on a good team that some of you think, then why can't he play first line on a really bad team and with one of its best players?
Because chemistry. Even Wayne Gretzky and Brett Hull didn't really mesh in St. Louis.

Also when you have a fairly thin roster like ours, it helps if you try and spread your talent out across four lines rather than putting all of your best guys on the ice at the same time and hoping everyone else can hold the fort.

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Old
12-10-2012, 01:08 AM
  #487
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A couple huge goals were scored last year with Grabovski and Kessel on the ice for balls-to-the-wall offense.

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12-10-2012, 01:39 AM
  #488
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Would also like to point out that Bomber0104 created a poll about whether or not Grabovski could be a 1st or 2nd line center on a contender, and as bad as polls are on this site, I have to laugh at the fact that it totally backfired on him.

Currently it stands at 14 yes and 4 no.

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12-10-2012, 06:12 AM
  #489
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Grabovski is easily a #2 C on a cup winning team.

Using the prior year when he had played 81GP vs 74GP this past, he scored 29G 29A for 58P and +14.
10-11, 82GP pace: 29G 29A = 58P +14
11-12, 82GP pace: 25G 31A = 56P +0


2011 LA: Mike Richards, 82GP pace: 20G 31A = 51P +3
2010 BOS: Patrice Bergeron, 82GP pace: 22G 35A = 57P +26
2009 CHI: Patrick Sharp, 82GP pace: 25G 41A = 66P +24
2008 PIT: Sidney Crosby, 82GP pace: 35G 75A = 110P +3


I'd say out of the past 4 years, Grabovski could have been the #2 centre on 2 cup winning teams.

The mix of assets on each team are what matters. LA had a great, balanced team across all positions. The 08 Pittsburgh team was loaded up down the middle, had good D and goaltending, but was weak at wings.

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12-10-2012, 09:27 AM
  #490
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
No backpedalling at all actually.

They spend a considerable amount of time together (170 minutes or about 8-10 games worth of ES time) and the result was a terrible line. That idea was quickly discontinued and was never tried again by Wilson because Grabo and Kessel didn't click.

If Grabo was this fictional second line centre on a good team that some of you think, then why can't he play first line on a really bad team and with one of its best players?

It's because he is not as talented as you think!
How did that poll work out for you

Maybe hes more talented then you think.... Sometimes players just don't mesh

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12-10-2012, 03:10 PM
  #491
Duke Silver
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How did that poll work out for you
!

When you have this many people disagreeing with you, a normal person would usually realize they may be a bit out to lunch.

But of course, posters like Bomber and Interactif are smarter than NHL executives. They cling to these ideologies no matter how miniscule the box gets.

They haven't just backed themselves into a corner: they're stuck in the crawlspace. It's actually quite admirable how steadfast they hold to their convictions in the face of contradictory evidence. So what do they do? Instead of providing counter-arguments they attack the poster (not the message) and repeat themselves a few more times, hoping the others just get frustrated and give up.

On what planet is 171 minutes spent together a "considerable amount of time"? That's not even 3 full games' worth of time spent together on the ice (and stop breaking it out into 10 games as if that makes it any more damning -- it doesn't), and that amount isn't even continuous. It's a few minutes here and there. How is that in any way a meaningful indication of how the two players work together?

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12-10-2012, 03:24 PM
  #492
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Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
!

When you have this many people disagreeing with you, a normal person would usually realize they may be a bit out to lunch.

But of course, posters like Bomber and Interactif are smarter than NHL executives. They cling to these ideologies no matter how miniscule the box gets.

They haven't just backed themselves into a corner: they're stuck in the crawlspace. It's actually quite admirable how steadfast they hold to their convictions in the face of contradictory evidence. So what do they do? Instead of providing counter-arguments they attack the poster (not the message) and repeat themselves a few more times, hoping the others just get frustrated and give up.

On what planet is 171 minutes spent together a "considerable amount of time"? That's not even 3 full games' worth of time spent together on the ice (and stop breaking it out into 10 games as if that makes it any more damning -- it doesn't), and that amount isn't even continuous. It's a few minutes here and there. How is that in any way a meaningful indication of how the two players work together?
It's not an unreasonable metric though, is it? In the time spent together -- for whatever reason -- Kessel and Grabo haven't as of yet sparked any real meaningful chemistry. Maybe they will...Personally I'm not bothered that they haven't. Kessel and Lupul certainly found chemistry.

The worry should be the KGM line, or some semblance thereof, regaining it's form to support Lupul and Kessel's.

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12-10-2012, 03:56 PM
  #493
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It's not an unreasonable metric though, is it? In the time spent together -- for whatever reason -- Kessel and Grabo haven't as of yet sparked any real meaningful chemistry. Maybe they will...Personally I'm not bothered that they haven't. Kessel and Lupul certainly found chemistry.

The worry should be the KGM line, or some semblance thereof, regaining it's form to support Lupul and Kessel's.
They get double shifted together, or put together in a game when lines are struggling and the coach juggles them around. This doesnt amount to 'time spent together' or some kind of failed experiment. 170 minutes over a full season amounts to an average of a little more than a couple shifts per game, which is in agreement with the above mentioned.

Twice last season toronto won in overtime with Grabovski and Kessel out together as the only forwards 4-on-4. This idea that they've been tried together and it failed to work is A MYTH. PERIOD. DEBUNKED!

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12-10-2012, 04:45 PM
  #494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
They get double shifted together, or put together in a game when lines are struggling and the coach juggles them around. This doesnt amount to 'time spent together' or some kind of failed experiment. 170 minutes over a full season amounts to an average of a little more than a couple shifts per game, which is in agreement with the above mentioned.

Twice last season toronto won in overtime with Grabovski and Kessel out together as the only forwards 4-on-4. This idea that they've been tried together and it failed to work is A MYTH. PERIOD. DEBUNKED!
Its interactif alt persona, relax.

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12-10-2012, 05:06 PM
  #495
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its interactif alt persona, relax.
just so....mad.....caps lock!!!!!!!!!

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12-10-2012, 06:15 PM
  #496
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just so....mad.....caps lock!!!!!!!!!
Notice for weeks only two share his views pretty much. Says it all really.

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Old
12-10-2012, 11:41 PM
  #497
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How did that poll work out for you

Maybe hes more talented then you think.... Sometimes players just don't mesh
All the freakin Leafs fans stuffed the ballot box.

NOT MY FAULT!!!!

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12-10-2012, 11:55 PM
  #498
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All the freakin Leafs fans stuffed the ballot box.

NOT MY FAULT!!!!
You should check again.

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Old
12-11-2012, 12:00 AM
  #499
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You should check again.
Honestly like half the votes are from biased leafs fans.

Im reading a lot of Kulemons and Bozaks and people like that.

Skewed results.

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12-11-2012, 12:03 AM
  #500
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This discussion has been so intense that I wonder what fans from other teams would think on this matter. This is assuming that posters here would accept that others probably haven't seen Grabovski nearly as much as those who follow the Leafs closely.

So... Would you take Plekanec or Grabovski? Pleks is seen by Habs fans as a #2C on a Cup contending team. I'm guessing Pleks is someone that people here have seen a reasonable amount of times.

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