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Old
11-29-2012, 08:12 PM
  #201
Dangles McGavin
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Originally Posted by ponder View Post
He's an excellent even strength player. Hustles like crazy, tonnes of speed, good puck handler and shooter, totally willing to sacrifice the body to make plays, and a dynamic player who can generate offence out of nothing. However, he is only mediocre on the PP (which is more slowed down and cerebral, Grabo's balls to the walls play doesn't make as much of an impact in a set up cycle), and the fact that he's a somewhat puck dominant, shoot first centre means he's not necessarily the best fit with puck dominant, shoot first 1st line wingers (like Kessel).

He'd be an acceptable 1st line centre, but he's a great 2nd line centre. In general the 2nd line centre has a similar role to the 1st line centre, except with more of an ES focus (less PP time), and with worse wingers, and that suits Grabo perfectly. Also, if we moved Grabo up to the 1st line, we'd be a 1 line team, Grabo is really the only reason that our 2nd line is able to consistently generate offence.
This is an excellent post, and a spot on analysis of Grabovski.

I definitely don't think Grabovski is a #1C. He's a very good two-way #2C; I'm glad to have him on our team. If he had more consistency, he could be a great player. If JVR breaks out like I think he will, we could see Grabovski break the 60 point mark IMO.

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11-29-2012, 09:10 PM
  #202
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I should finish this assessment, but I think the general idea is he's a 1B/2A C.

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11-29-2012, 10:49 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
No, it's just important to compare stats that are actually comparable. Last year Grabovski was 61st amongst centers in PP time. His even strenght assist production was good even with his former 30-goal-scoring winger forgetting how to play hockey. But to you he is a puck hog with tunnel vision who has low hockey IQ and doesnt know how to use his linemates. You're so far off the mark that it's incredibly easy to show it. And the best you can do is 'OMG Thornton comparison, sooooo ridicuLOL!'

You keep denigrating his assist numbers. His assists are about 80% even strength, and a very simple sorted list shows that you're just wrong.
  1. Not all those 60 "centers" ahead of him in PP icetime actually play center (check faceoff #s)
  2. There was a very good reason why Grabo didn't get as much special teams icetime (both PP and PK) as he did the season before. Even if you standardize his PP production for PP time received, you'll probably find that he wasn't particularly great compared to his #2C peers.

He's not a great playmaker, or has great vision not because he only got 29 assist (doesn't matter how many came on even strength, and how much PP time he's received), but because he rarely makes the type of passes competent playmakers around the league make on regular basis.

I'd love to see some pass attempt / completion stats if the league kept track of them. I have no doubt Grabo would be pretty far down the list, both in terms of passing accuracy, and the # of passes attempted.

Grabo has his strengths and weaknesses. I acknowledge his strengths. A lot of people around here should try to at least acknowledge his weaknesses. Following this conversation, it sounds like the majority think he's completely flawless. He absolutely gets tunnel vision while carrying the puck, and doesn't use his linemates nearly as well as he could/should. I think he'd make a better winger than a center, as he's essentially a perimeter sniper, who happens to play center. He doesn't seem to posses a lot of the skillsets that people usually associate with centers.

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11-29-2012, 11:09 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Grabo has his strengths and weaknesses. I acknowledge his strengths. A lot of people around here should try to at least acknowledge his weaknesses. Following this conversation, it sounds like the majority think he's completely flawless. He absolutely gets tunnel vision while carrying the puck, and doesn't use his linemates nearly as well as he could/should. I think he'd make a better winger than a center, as he's essentially a perimeter sniper, who happens to play center. He doesn't seem to posses a lot of the skillsets that people usually associate with centers.
Completely false. He started as a winger and he's a lot better as a center. He does not get 'tunnel vision' when carrying the puck. His passing game is well above average. He's not a 'perimeter' anything. Watch his goals, they are scored almost exclusively in the slot and right in close.

I mean...do you even watch the Leafs? If pass completion stats were kept they'd make him look bad? Are you serious with that weak ****?

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There was a very good reason why Grabo didn't get as much special teams icetime (both PP and PK) as he did the season before. Even if you standardize his PP production for PP time received, you'll probably find that he wasn't particularly great compared to his #2C peers.
Lets take a highly regarded #2C from a much better team....Patrice Bergeron. He averaged one point every 14.6 minutes of PP time. Grabovski averaged one every 15.5 minutes.

Lets take the #2C from the stanley cup winners. Mike Richards averaged one point every 16.4 minutes of PP time.

Lets take a random #1C from a much better team just for ***** and giggles....Brad Richards. He averaged one point every 14.2 minutes of PP time.

So in my 30 wasted seconds of research you wouldnt bother to do yourself, I find that you're wrong again. Quelle surprise.


Last edited by bunjay: 11-29-2012 at 11:20 PM.
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Old
11-29-2012, 11:13 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
JVR is gonna have to fit into the top 6 somewhere. So clearly the lines aren't finalized.

When Kulemin was going good Grabs almost broke 60 and had 29 goals. He was around 26 at the time. Last year he came pretty close on a fairly dysfunctional team.

Once we see some consistency in the lineup and especially his line, we will see his full potential. It is not absurd to believe he hasn't maxxed out his potential already at 28. He has improved his game consistently over the last few years and no reason to believe he won't continue. Without question Grabo is a legit and very effective 2C.

I know I am on my own here but with further development I could see him being a 1C if we do not land one soon. That is my own personal belief/gutfeeling.
Just how many more years do you think he'll keep "developing"? He's turning 29 in 2 months. The idea of him continuing to improve (not his production, but his skillset) isn't absurd, but it's very unlikely.

JVR's addition should help Grabo's production, assuming JVR ends up on the 2nd line, and the two of them find any resemblance of chemistry, but I would call that an effect of playing with better linemates, instead of some misguided sense of development.

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11-29-2012, 11:17 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
Completely false. He started as a winger and he's a lot better as a center. He does not get 'tunnel vision' when carrying the puck. His passing game is well above average. He's not a 'perimeter' anything. Watch his goals, they are scored almost exclusively in the slot and right in close.

I mean...do you even watch the Leafs? If pass completion stats were kept they'd make him look bad? Are you serious with that weak ****?
The position of his shots has nothing to do with him being a perimeter player. They're constantly on the move, and float into open spaces to use their quick release. He doesn't battle in front of the net, or win puck battles along the boards on a consistent basis. It's not part of his game, but that's fine.

Pass attempts and completion rate would actually show his tenancies as a playmaker. I'm not the one trying to imply that the # of assist is a direct indication of his playmaking abilities.

Yeah, I see you still think Grabo is flawless. Keep the dream alive.

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11-29-2012, 11:30 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Yeah, I see you still think Grabo is flawless. Keep the dream alive.
Nobody has ever said this.

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Pass attempts and completion rate would actually show his tenancies as a playmaker. I'm not the one trying to imply that the # of assist is a direct indication of his playmaking abilities.
You were going on about how only having a career high of x number of assists means his playmaking abilities are poor. That's drawing a direct correlation between # of assists and playmaking abilities, isn't it? Yes, yes it is. But then you were given some perspective on what x number of assists actually means in the NHL, and now you're talking ass-backwards.

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11-29-2012, 11:40 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
Nobody has ever said this.
Feel free to list some of his flaws.

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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
You were going on about how only having a career high of x number of assists means his playmaking abilities are poor. That's drawing a direct correlation between # of assists and playmaking abilities, isn't it? Yes, yes it is. But then you were given some perspective on what x number of assists actually means in the NHL, and now you're talking ass-backwards.
I didn't say crap about assists, but let me clarify. There's a huge difference between touching the puck before it finds it's way to the back of the net, and making a great pass that results in a goal.

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11-30-2012, 08:46 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
ared to his #2C peers.[/list]
He's not a great playmaker, or has great vision not because he only got 29 assist (doesn't matter how many came on even strength, and how much PP time he's received), but because he rarely makes the type of passes competent playmakers around the league make on regular basis.

I'd love to see some pass attempt / completion stats if the league kept track of them. I have no doubt Grabo would be pretty far down the list, both in terms of passing accuracy, and the # of passes attempted.
Okay, so you admit you are just making this up because you say there is no evidence to support your position.

You should just let it go before this is identified as trolling.

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11-30-2012, 08:57 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Okay, so you admit you are just making this up because you say there is no evidence to support your position.

You should just let it go before this is identified as trolling.
Thanks, this is what we put up with here, upset habs fans regarding Grabs.

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11-30-2012, 08:59 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Okay, so you admit you are just making this up because you say there is no evidence to support your position.

You should just let it go before this is identified as trolling.
The majority of claims made on these forums are observations based on watching them play, without any quantifiable evidence to support them.

I think you need to look up what the definition of trolling is. Apparently people are only allowed to state their observations and opinions if they coincide with the majority?

I will let it go, though, since it's obvious that we won't convince each other, no matter how many facts, and stats are used for the arguments.

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11-30-2012, 09:19 AM
  #212
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After all this time..... After coming so far (lol).... You're just going to give up, eh?

Either way, whatever it was that you were trying to argue.... Was defeated by logic, and facts. Hate when that happens...

But sweet attempt, Bro.

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11-30-2012, 09:44 AM
  #213
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After all this time..... After coming so far (lol).... You're just going to give up, eh?

Either way, whatever it was that you were trying to argue.... Was defeated by logic, and facts. Hate when that happens...

But sweet attempt, Bro.
Facts are:

- Grabo has not seen a playoff game since 06-07, no coincidence this guy is a loser.

- 29 assists is his career high, good playmaker?

- He has never played well without Kule or Mac, see him with Frattin, Blake, Kessel

- He's not particularly good on faceoffs, or why did we trade for Steckel or use even Bozak and Connolly before Grabs on key faceoffs, he brings zero physical edge to a team, he's not a strong leader. Things that Bergeron, Richards bring to a team in spades.

He is a mediocre #2C, who would be a bubble #3C on a contending team.

Just who would he bump off as the checking 3C on the last 4 Cup winners? Staal, Boland, Kelly, Stoll. Is Grabo better than any of them Penalty killing, winning faceoffs, or bringing grit these players bring to the table.

Instead of saying he is a great #2c, why don't the Grabo enablers bring up his weaknesses?

Atleast the realistic fans here have said yes he is a 24 - 29 goal scorer, he is fast, he is willing to be hit.

But we also see his many weaknesses or limitations, he has terrible ice vision, he is not a good playmaker, and he has almost zero intangibles. At 29 in 2 months, the chances of him developing further are almost nil.

Another argument I always hear is he needs a 30 goal 60 point winger, do people forget Kule? 30g 27 assists, 3 points shy of 60 points? The net result was a career high 29 assists. Need further proof enablers?

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11-30-2012, 09:54 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Facts are:

- Grabo has not seen a playoff game since 06-07, no coincidence this guy is a loser.
Rick Nash has been to the playoffs once in his entire 9 year career, Kessel hasn't made it since 08, Tavares has never been, Kule hasn't etc. I guess all these guys are losers as well?

Why do you even watch hockey? Clearly you haven't grasped the concept that it's a TEAM game!

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11-30-2012, 09:56 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Facts are:

- Grabo has not seen a playoff game since 06-07, no coincidence this guy is a loser.

- 29 assists is his career high, good playmaker?

- He has never played well without Kule or Mac, see him with Frattin, Blake, Kessel

- He's not particularly good on faceoffs, or why did we trade for Steckel or use even Bozak and Connolly before Grabs on key faceoffs, he brings zero physical edge to a team, he's not a strong leader. Things that Bergeron, Richards bring to a team in spades.

He is a mediocre #2C, who would be a bubble #3C on a contending team.

Just who would he bump off as the checking 3C on the last 4 Cup winners? Staal, Boland, Kelly, Stoll. Is Grabo better than any of them Penalty killing, winning faceoffs, or bringing grit these players bring to the table.

Instead of saying he is a great #2c, why don't the Grabo enablers bring up his weaknesses?

Atleast the realistic fans here have said yes he is a 24 - 29 goal scorer, he is fast, he is willing to be hit.

But we also see his many weaknesses or limitations, he has terrible ice vision, he is not a good playmaker, and he has almost zero intangibles. At 29 in 2 months, the chances of him developing further are almost nil.

Another argument I always hear is he needs a 30 goal 60 point winger, do people forget Kule? 30g 27 assists, 3 points shy of 60 points? The net result was a career high 29 assists. Need further proof enablers?
A lot of those points aren't facts.

Fact - Grabo will be the #2 Centre here for the foreseeable future. Better get use to it.

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11-30-2012, 10:00 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
A lot of those points aren't facts.

Fact - Grabo will be the #2 Centre here for the foreseeable future. Better get use to it.
What fact was not correct? Back it up with an example.

Using facts to back up an opinion is new to some here, I know.

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11-30-2012, 10:04 AM
  #217
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Rick Nash has been to the playoffs once in his entire 9 year career, Kessel hasn't made it since 08, Tavares has never been, Kule hasn't etc. I guess all these guys are losers as well?

Why do you even watch hockey? Clearly you haven't grasped the concept that it's a TEAM game!
Are you comparing Grabo to these players, or are you still enabling.

Grabo has never seen NHL playoffs and in his limited action in some semblance of playoff play he has:

Get this another fact. 13 points in 32 career playoff games.

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11-30-2012, 10:04 AM
  #218
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What fact was not correct? Back it up with an example.

Using facts to back up an opinion is new to some here, I know.
Pretty much all of it.

Maybe you just have trouble distinguishing between fact and opinion, happens a lot here.

Start with this one.

He is a mediocre #2C, who would be a bubble #3C on a contending team.

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11-30-2012, 10:09 AM
  #219
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Pretty much all of it.

Maybe you just have trouble distinguishing between fact and opinion, happens a lot here.

Start with this one.

He is a mediocre #2C, who would be a bubble #3C on a contending team.
All of it, where? Lesson here is, If you are going to state it was unfactual then use examples, otherwise you look very disingenous.

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11-30-2012, 10:10 AM
  #220
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The players I listed haven't either except for 1.

How long ago was your 2nd point? Because Grabo hasn't changed at all since then right?

You're a clown.
Can't address a factual post, your attempt at misdirection is actually the one of a clown's act.

Did Grabo not play with a 30 goal winger? Fact one, fact two, he has not played in a playoff game since the 06-07 season, fact 3 for all those that say he would be a monster in the playoffs, thus far his playoff stats are 32 games, 13 points.

Which fact is unfactual?

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11-30-2012, 10:15 AM
  #221
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All of it, where? Lesson here is, If you are going to state it was unfactual then use examples, otherwise you look very disingenous.
I listed one (that you ignored), it's not my job to correct all your mistakes.

If you believe your opinion to be facts, knock yourself out. (Mostly) everyone knows the truth.

Lesson here is opinion is not fact.

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11-30-2012, 10:16 AM
  #222
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You can't state a fact on impossibility. It's impossible to know where he plays on another team, because he doesn't, and the structure of that club would be different if he did. That's purely opinion saying he's a mediocre 2C, and bubble 3.

Lots of players (notably mentioned above) have not played in the playoffs. You put a lot of stake in international play, so why does that change now? Grabo has been a 1-man show for Belarus for a few years now.... We agreed as to the importance of these events in another thread, don't back-pedal now.

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11-30-2012, 10:21 AM
  #223
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
I listed one (that you ignored), it's not my job to correct all your mistakes.

If you believe your opinion to be facts, knock yourself out. (Mostly) everyone knows the truth.

Lesson here is opinion is not fact.
Just how is this a fact? It's an opinion I backed up by factually listing the last 4 3C's to win cups, did you miss it?

Quote:
Start with this one.

He is a mediocre #2C, who would be a bubble #3C on a contending team.

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11-30-2012, 10:24 AM
  #224
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
I listed one (that you ignored), it's not my job to correct all your mistakes.

If you believe your opinion to be facts, knock yourself out. (Mostly) everyone knows the truth.

Lesson here is opinion is not fact.
I will even make it easy for you to understand, here was the post fact followed up by opinion.

Quote:
He is a mediocre #2C, who would be a bubble #3C on a contending team.

Just who would he bump off as the checking 3C on the last 4 Cup winners? Staal, Boland, Kelly, Stoll. Is Grabo better than any of them Penalty killing, winning faceoffs, or bringing grit these players bring to the table.
Now either defute this by saying Grabo is a better 3C than the players I listed or agree with it. But don't be disingenous and say it was unfactual.

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11-30-2012, 10:33 AM
  #225
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So we have established

Grabo is not equal to 2nd C's on the last 4 Cup winners.

Malkin
Sharp
Bergeron
Richards

and he is not a better checking #3C than:

Staal
Boland
Kelly
Stoll

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