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Old
11-29-2012, 02:14 PM
  #151
Mystlyfe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
You do realize there is more to being a center than points, right?

Both Toews/Giroux are better defensively. Also, citing how a 25 year old is "better" because he outscored them his rookie year (when he was 19) isnt the best argument.

I take Toews/Giroux in a heartbeat over Backstrom, Tavares is just personal preference.
In what world is Giroux better than Backstrom defensively?


We've had plenty of 2006 redraft and Toews v Backstrom v Giroux polls, and they all come out to basically the same conclusion. Each team is happy with the guy they got, they're easily the best 3 players from the 2006 draft, and it's a matter of personal preference. To say you'd take them in a heartbeat before Backstrom is simply ludicrous.

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11-29-2012, 04:20 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
You do realize there is more to being a center than points, right?

Both Toews/Giroux are better defensively. Also, citing how a 25 year old is "better" because he outscored them his rookie year (when he was 19) isnt the best argument.

I take Toews/Giroux in a heartbeat over Backstrom, Tavares is just personal preference.
Toews and Backstrom both have around the same plus minus stat while Giroux is no where near either of them. Backstrom also has been used on the penalty kill because each coach Washington has had has liked his defensive play. It amazes me that even with all of the facts given you guys still undervalue and underrate Backstrom.

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11-29-2012, 04:22 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Where in my post did I suggest that?
Because they're even in the playoffs, Backstrom is WAY better in the regular season and you're saying the difference isn't that big. 0.27 PPG is a lot. Last year, 0.27 PPG was the difference between Stamkos and Gaborik.

If we take playoffs out of the equation (and we can since their playoff stats are equal) we see how much better Nick is.

There are also people suggesting Nick is bad in the playoffs. Check this out please:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX-7wJeZqBQ
Please note the numbers on the scoreboard at the beginning of the vid.


Last edited by fedfed: 11-29-2012 at 04:37 PM.
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Old
11-29-2012, 04:24 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Girouxtiful View Post
Since Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, and Datsyuk are out of the way, we'll add Giroux, Toews, Tavares, Sedin, Kopitar, Thornton, Spezza...could probably go on with an argument for guys like Staal or even Patrick Kane/Seguin if you consider those two centers.

I love Backstrom and his game - definitely a top tier player - but not a top 10 center right now.
Oh dear lord.

Seguin isn't top 20 winger in the league right now, has never really played C in the NHL, and you are ready to call him a top 15 C? You say you could make an argument for Seguin being better right now than Backstrom.

Ok, make it.

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Old
11-29-2012, 05:18 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
You do realize there is more to being a center than points, right?

Both Toews/Giroux are better defensively. Also, citing how a 25 year old is "better" because he outscored them his rookie year (when he was 19) isnt the best argument.

I take Toews/Giroux in a heartbeat over Backstrom, Tavares is just personal preference.
Giroux is very clearly below Backstrom defensively. You'd have known this if you actually watched both of them play instead of blindly following the HF Giroux mancrush.

Backstrom is closer defensively to Toews than Giroux.

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Old
11-29-2012, 05:40 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Regular Season:

Backstrom 1.00 PPG
Krejci 0.73 PPG

Playoffs:

Backstrom 0.80 PPG
Krejci 0.80 PPG

- - - - -

Backstrom is clearly the better regular season player. However in the Playoffs they are equal, both averaging same PPG (.80) average (Krejci in 59 games, Backstrom in 50).

Now once we add into this deal the 24yr old Marchand who just posted 28g, 27a, 55pts in 76 games, IMO the proposal starts to lean in Washingtons direction. Marchand during the Bruins Cup run 11g, 8a, 19pts in 25 games played. He is far from a "throw in" in a trade proposal.

*Also keep in mind, Backstrom makes $6.7m, Krejci JUST signed for $5.2m. A raise from the $3.75 he was making up until the start of this season (IF it starts)
Thanks, nice analysis. I think the difference between Chimera & Marchand is nearly as great as the difference between Krejci & Backstrom. And I don't think it's enough to throw in a 1st round pick.

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11-29-2012, 06:18 PM
  #157
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You may not take Giroux or Toews over Backstrom but Washington,s gm would. You can put all the ppg regular season stats you want on this board but when the playoffs start I find it hard to believe you wouldn't take them either.

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Old
11-29-2012, 08:52 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
Oh dear lord.

Seguin isn't top 20 winger in the league right now, has never really played C in the NHL, and you are ready to call him a top 15 C? You say you could make an argument for Seguin being better right now than Backstrom.

Ok, make it.
I would never argue that Seguin is better than Backstrom right now, but you could certainly argue that he has the potential to be.
He was 10th in scoring amongst players listed as centers by NHL.com last year and was 20. He would have been 16th among wingers.

Scoring isn't everything, but he's probably pushing to be considered a top 30 forward right now, and obviously the best is yet to come.

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11-29-2012, 09:00 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by glenbuis View Post
You may not take Giroux or Toews over Backstrom but Washington,s gm would. You can put all the ppg regular season stats you want on this board but when the playoffs start I find it hard to believe you wouldn't take them either.
All you have done is degraded Backstrom in this thread. If you actually watched the Caps playoff games you would know that Backstrom has been our best playoff player the past few season. Just because the Caps haven't had playoff success doesn't mean Backstrom as a player doesn't have success in the playoffs.

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11-29-2012, 09:24 PM
  #160
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I have ackwoledged that he is elite and definitely top 15 in the world. Krecji, marchand and a 1st would be an overpayment but if ur getting the best player in the deal u supposedly win the deal. Being a montreal fan and looking to upgrade at center Backstrom would definitely be an upgrade for what we got. I would if i had a choice would prefer Toews or Giroux because of a presumed edgier or nastier mentality. to be perfectly honest with u, ive never played with either one of them so i guess i shouldn't really judge.

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11-29-2012, 09:25 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
In what world is Giroux better than Backstrom defensively?


We've had plenty of 2006 redraft and Toews v Backstrom v Giroux polls, and they all come out to basically the same conclusion. Each team is happy with the guy they got, they're easily the best 3 players from the 2006 draft, and it's a matter of personal preference. To say you'd take them in a heartbeat before Backstrom is simply ludicrous.
FYI, while I do not intend to get too involved in this debate. Posting a single video does not bolster your claim of how good Backstrom, or anyone, is defensively. I can just as easily find some highlight reels of Bryzgalov and say that shows he is a good goalie. That said, I do agree Backstrom is surprisingly underrated on HF even if I'll disagree with Cap fans claiming him better than Sedin.

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11-29-2012, 11:50 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
FYI, while I do not intend to get too involved in this debate. Posting a single video does not bolster your claim of how good Backstrom, or anyone, is defensively. I can just as easily find some highlight reels of Bryzgalov and say that shows he is a good goalie. That said, I do agree Backstrom is surprisingly underrated on HF even if I'll disagree with Cap fans claiming him better than Sedin.
I never said hes better than Sedin. Just remembering that I read a quote from someone on the canadian olympic team saying he was the top swede and they needed to game plan against him.

I mean an actual player for a national teams opinion> some homer from Boston. Simple really.

08 viking award winner. Top swede.


Last edited by Capathetic: 11-29-2012 at 11:55 PM.
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Old
11-30-2012, 07:17 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by fedfed View Post
Because they're even in the playoffs, Backstrom is WAY better in the regular season and you're saying the difference isn't that big. 0.27 PPG is a lot. Last year, 0.27 PPG was the difference between Stamkos and Gaborik.

If we take playoffs out of the equation (and we can since their playoff stats are equal) we see how much better Nick is.

There are also people suggesting Nick is bad in the playoffs. Check this out please:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX-7wJeZqBQ
Please note the numbers on the scoreboard at the beginning of the vid.
Please show me where I said that?

I actually said "CLEARLY Backstrom is the better regular season player"..

Why would you want to take the playoffs "out of the equation"? Playoffs are where legends are created. Thus far in their careers, they produce the same amount of offense in the post season.

One for one, Backstrom holds more value..but IMO not so much more that Boston would toss in Marchand & a 1st. No chance.

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Old
11-30-2012, 08:04 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
FYI, while I do not intend to get too involved in this debate. Posting a single video does not bolster your claim of how good Backstrom, or anyone, is defensively. I can just as easily find some highlight reels of Bryzgalov and say that shows he is a good goalie. That said, I do agree Backstrom is surprisingly underrated on HF even if I'll disagree with Cap fans claiming him better than Sedin.
I used to do things like post defensive metrics, quality of competition, zone starts, etc. But many posters would just go red in the face and yell about how stats don't mean anything and accuse me of not watching the game. So now I chose the simpler route. Not that it's a bulletproof argument, but simply because I don't put as much effort forth and get the same result.

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Old
11-30-2012, 08:05 AM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
FYI, while I do not intend to get too involved in this debate. Posting a single video does not bolster your claim of how good Backstrom, or anyone, is defensively. I can just as easily find some highlight reels of Bryzgalov and say that shows he is a good goalie. That said, I do agree Backstrom is surprisingly underrated on HF even if I'll disagree with Cap fans claiming him better than Sedin.
Backstrom has been playing on our PK since his rookie year. Enough said. He is better defensively than Giroux.

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Old
11-30-2012, 08:43 AM
  #166
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Take the playoffs out of the equation???????? Would u rather have a guy who wins the scoring race every year, his team wins the presidents trophy every year but lose early in playoffs every year vs a guy who finishes say 25th in scoring every year, his team makes playoffs every year but no better than the 4th seed say, but go on to win the cup 3-4 times and maybe gets a couple conn smythes for his efforts.

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11-30-2012, 09:00 AM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenbuis View Post
Take the playoffs out of the equation???????? Would u rather have a guy who wins the scoring race every year, his team wins the presidents trophy every year but lose early in playoffs every year vs a guy who finishes say 25th in scoring every year, his team makes playoffs every year but no better than the 4th seed say, but go on to win the cup 3-4 times and maybe gets a couple conn smythes for his efforts.
1. Caps only won Presidents' Trophy once.
2. We're not trading teams, do we? As posted above, Krejci and Backstrom have the exact same playoff statline.
3. I might have missed something, but Bs have one more Stanley Cup than the Caps in the last 40 years.

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11-30-2012, 09:03 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Please show me where I said that?

I actually said "CLEARLY Backstrom is the better regular season player"..

Why would you want to take the playoffs "out of the equation"? Playoffs are where legends are created. Thus far in their careers, they produce the same amount of offense in the post season.

One for one, Backstrom holds more value..but IMO not so much more that Boston would toss in Marchand & a 1st. No chance.
Regular season:
Backstrom >>> Krejci
Playoffs:
Backstrom = Krejci.
Yeah, we'll keep Backstrom... and Marchand isn't that enticing. Caps aren't a dirty team, Caps are a team that has some pride, this bunch of guys always played physical, honest hockey. Not interested in whining divers. He's a bad fit with our leadership group.

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11-30-2012, 11:29 AM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fedfed View Post
Regular season:
Backstrom >>> Krejci
Playoffs:
Backstrom = Krejci.
Yeah, we'll keep Backstrom... and Marchand isn't that enticing. Caps aren't a dirty team, Caps are a team that has some pride, this bunch of guys always played physical, honest hockey. Not interested in whining divers. He's a bad fit with our leadership group.
Oh cmon.. Marchand is what he is,, a scrappy gritty player, with good hands. I see him as a 30g 30a winger. So IMO Marchand + Krejci is too much value to give up for Backstrom.

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11-30-2012, 11:42 AM
  #170
Tim Vezina Thomas
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Originally Posted by hb11xchamps View Post
Toews and Backstrom both have around the same plus minus stat while Giroux is no where near either of them. Backstrom also has been used on the penalty kill because each coach Washington has had has liked his defensive play. It amazes me that even with all of the facts given you guys still undervalue and underrate Backstrom.
If we're going by plus minus, then Seguin was the best center in the entire league last year. Crap argument. The only arguments Ive heard for backstrom are career PPG and +/-

No one think Backstrom isnt one of the best centers in the league (except that one guy), so I dont know why you guys are getting so defensive. I just happen to think Giroux/Toews are better overall centers and I'd take them over Backstrom.

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11-30-2012, 11:51 AM
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fedfed View Post
Regular season:
Backstrom >>> Krejci
Playoffs:
Backstrom = Krejci.
Yeah, we'll keep Backstrom... and Marchand isn't that enticing. Caps aren't a dirty team, Caps are a team that has some pride, this bunch of guys always played physical, honest hockey. Not interested in whining divers. He's a bad fit with our leadership group.
Oh please, don't derail this thread. Every team in the league would like Marchand on their team. Hes an agitator, great defensively, and a 60 point top six player to boot.

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11-30-2012, 11:51 AM
  #172
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If your referring to me I have said now a few times i think he is top 15 without a doubt. I just happen to agree with you that i would prefer toews or giroux. Backstrom would be very close behind.

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11-30-2012, 12:49 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Oh cmon.. Marchand is what he is,, a scrappy gritty player, with good hands. I see him as a 30g 30a winger. So IMO Marchand + Krejci is too much value to give up for Backstrom.
"scrappy gritty"? Brouwer is "scrappy gritty", Marchand is plain dirty, without euphemisms.
Could be too much value from BOS side, but we do not need Brad Marchand. Do. Not. Need. For the exact same reason as we don't need Steve Downie, for example. Not our style of hockey.

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:25 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
Oh please, don't derail this thread. Every team in the league would like Marchand on their team. Hes an agitator, great defensively, and a 60 point top six player to boot.
Bad thing.

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Old
11-30-2012, 02:07 PM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fedfed View Post
Regular season:
Backstrom >>> Krejci
Playoffs:
Backstrom = Krejci.
Yeah, we'll keep Backstrom... and Marchand isn't that enticing. Caps aren't a dirty team, Caps are a team that has some pride, this bunch of guys always played physical, honest hockey. Not interested in whining divers. He's a bad fit with our leadership group.

Marchand is very enticing to most teams. He dives, but I wouldn't say he doesn't play tough or he whines either.

But I guess your leadership group has done you wonders, so....


Last edited by spiny norman: 11-30-2012 at 02:16 PM. Reason: not needed
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