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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Mario Lemieux moves into $20-million Mont Tremblant home

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Old
11-25-2012, 01:58 PM
  #26
Fugu
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
If Jacobs were to set the TV contract numbers artificially low, he'd be liable to a lawsuit from the NHLPA.
There is a formula they use to assess a fair market value for HRR purposes. Thus, it may be possible that Jacobs can charge himself as much or little as makes sense for his portfolio, but for cap purposes, it does get counted 'fairly'. What it does affect is profitability of one arm or the other, for audited business returns.


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There's no question that consolidating businesses can lead to improved profits. But honestly, I don't think that's entirely fair. Not all franchises are able to do that. I think franchises should be evaluated as individual business entities. I believe that's how the courts would see it.
Not sure which courts you mean?

Why can't you consider that you may charge more or less, or treat costs/expenses and depreciation in a way that supports your ultimate profit and investment goals the best?

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11-25-2012, 02:09 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Out of curiosity, I decided to look up Lemieux's career earnings, which from 1989 - 2005 totaled $48,926,829. Missing are the five seasons prior to that (1984 being his first NHL season). However, his was paid roughly $2.0, 2.17, and 2.34 MM the first three years for which we have data. Let's assume it was $1 MM/yr for three of those years, and $2 MM/yr for two: $7 MM
www.hockeyzoneplus.com/search/salaries-search.cgi?template=nhl-salaries-search-detail.htm&dbname=NHL-Salaries-test.txt&key2=2199&action=searchdbdisplay
1984-85: $250,000
1985-86: $400,000
1986-87: $650,000
1987-88: $650,000
1988-89: $1,600,000
1989-90: $2,100,000
1990-91: $2,000,000
1991-92: $2,338,000
1992-93: $2,408,000 + $ deferred
1993-94: $5,000,000 + $ deferred
1994-95: sat out, $ deferred
1995-96: $4,571,000 + $1,071,400 deferred
1996-97: $11,321,429
1997-98: retired + $2,000,000
1998-99: retired
1999-00: retired
2000-01: $1,400,000
2001-02: $5,250,000
2002-03: $5,250,000
2003-04: $5,250,000
2004-05: lockout
2005-06: $3,000,000

http://www.hockeydraftcentral.com/1984/84001.html

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11-25-2012, 02:14 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
"The government," if you want to include SEA in that, paid about $20 million of a $320 million building, which was about half of cost overruns. That's it. That's all they paid. That's not "building an arena for a billionaire," which Lemieux actually isn't.

The state of Pennsylvania's involvement in the construction of Consol Arena is that they brokered a deal on behalf of future gambling licensee, in which, in exchange for being granted a slots license, they'd foot about 65% the bill for a "public" building, with the Penguins picking up the difference. The slots license was so lucrative that 4 separate entities were willing to enter into this agreement in exchange for this license.

Consol Energy Center isn't an example of public funds subsidizing private industry. It's an example of private industry subsidizing a public building that benefits a different private industry.


MOD
The credit available to cities and government for municipal projects is being used, which is legal but in some views, not the reason bonds were created. Ultimately, in the case of shortages or defaults, the taxpayer is left holding the bill:


Quote:
Budget Office spokesman Barry Ciccocioppo said the Gaming Economic Development and Tourism Fund has enough money to cover the arena bond bailout and payments to nine other projects in Allegheny County and Philadelphia, including the $7.5 million yearly payment for the arena bonds.
Other local payments from the fund include $3.4 million to pay off debt and operating deficits from the David L. Lawrence Convention Center, $3.7 million for debt and financing for a convention center hotel, and $12.4 million to pay off debt on the Pittsburgh International Airport.
"This situation is the result of the unexpected market crash in 2008," Ciccocioppo said in an e-mail. "This was a sound financial arrangement in 2007 that was caught up in the crash that affected businesses worldwide."
Legg Mason, which purchased arena bonds, apparently is not worried. In an August filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission, Legg Mason said: "While the Special Revenues are projected as of May 19, 2009, to be adequate to pay all debt service on the arena bonds, to the extent such revenues are in any year inadequate to cover debt service, the commonwealth is obligated under the arena lease to make up the deficiency."
The statement noted the state could be liable for up to $19.1 million a year and made reference to the state's $5.08 million appropriation to cover this year's shortfall.
Read more: http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib...#ixzz2DGdBlbiQ

Edit: I stand corrected on the funding details. Over the life of the bond, the state will receive repayment for the cost of the arena. I do stand by the portion that its taxpayer credit and risk that is being used to make it possible, noting the market crash of 2008 made things more expensive, hence the risk being passed on to taxpayers.


Last edited by Fugu: 11-25-2012 at 02:22 PM. Reason: ...
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11-25-2012, 02:14 PM
  #29
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Or possibly he leveraged his position as one of the greatest players ever to play hockey into endorsements?

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11-25-2012, 02:27 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The credit available to cities and government for municipal projects is being used, which is legal but in some views, not the reason bonds were created. Ultimately, in the case of shortages or defaults, the taxpayer is left holding the bill:


Read more: http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib...#ixzz2DGdBlbiQ
Which part of that article says the State of Pennsylvania bought Mario Lemieux an Arena? That's your claim.

If a bond sale which hasn't gone wrong would have gone wrong something might have happened doesn't make that statement any less false.

Here's how Consol got funded--Ed Rendell conjured a buyers' "tax" of sorts, on the Allegheny licensee out of thin air in order to pay for 3 projects--an arena, parts of the David L Lawrence conventional center and to provide property tax relief (in the mid aughts, property values in the Allegheny area were fraudulently assessed, which caused a lot of people to get hit harder than they should and caused a lot of other people to take a huge hit on the value of their homes). Saying something like this could have been used to pay for other projects isn't correct. Absent these projects needing funds and not having them, no such "tax" would have existed in the first place.

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11-25-2012, 02:41 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Which part of that article says the State of Pennsylvania bought Mario Lemieux an Arena? That's your claim.

If a bond sale which hasn't gone wrong would have gone wrong something might have happened doesn't make that statement any less false.

Here's how Consol got funded--Ed Rendell conjured a buyers' "tax" of sorts, on the Allegheny licensee out of thin air in order to pay for 3 projects--an arena, parts of the David L Lawrence conventional center and to provide property tax relief (in the mid aughts, property values in the Allegheny area were fraudulently assessed, which caused a lot of people to get hit harder than they should and caused a lot of other people to take a huge hit on the value of their homes). Saying something like this could have been used to pay for other projects isn't correct. Absent these projects needing funds and not having them, no such "tax" would have existed in the first place.
Two things, you missed my edited addition at the bottom. And particularly this quote to highlight that the govt is ultimately responsible for the debt servicing:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The credit available to cities and government for municipal projects is being used, which is legal but in some views, not the reason bonds were created. Ultimately, in the case of shortages or defaults, the taxpayer is left holding the bill:


Read more: http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib...#ixzz2DGdBlbiQ

Edit: I stand corrected on the funding details. Over the life of the bond, the state will receive repayment for the cost of the arena. I do stand by the portion that its taxpayer credit and risk that is being used to make it possible, noting the market crash of 2008 made things more expensive, hence the risk being passed on to taxpayers.
Quote:
"This situation is the result of the unexpected market crash in 2008," Ciccocioppo said in an e-mail. "This was a sound financial arrangement in 2007 that was caught up in the crash that affected businesses worldwide."
Legg Mason, which purchased arena bonds, apparently is not worried. In an August filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission, Legg Mason said: "While the Special Revenues are projected as of May 19, 2009, to be adequate to pay all debt service on the arena bonds, to the extent such revenues are in any year inadequate to cover debt service, the commonwealth is obligated under the arena lease to make up the deficiency."
The statement noted the state could be liable for up to $19.1 million a year and made reference to the state's $5.08 million appropriation to cover this year's shortfall.
To recap:
Quote:
The money was directed to the state Department of General Services, the state's real estate and property agency that leased the arena to guarantee payment of the $313.3 million Sports & Exhibition Authority bond issue.
The financing plan would repay the bonds at a rate of $19.1 million a year $4.1 million from the Penguins hockey team, $7.5 million from Pittsburgh's Rivers Casino and $7.5 million from a state fund built from casino taxes.


Add the shortfall of $5 million, which makes the state's share for the year in question at least: $12.5 MM.

The article is from 2009. If there's more current accounting, I'd be happy to have anyone link it.

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11-25-2012, 02:49 PM
  #32
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You are looking at his NHL salary but keep in mind he man probably got endorsements....probably some nice money off of the interest on his money in the bank as well lol.

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11-25-2012, 02:55 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Conflicted Habs fan View Post
I travelled through Mont Tremblant a few weeks ago. It's a really nice ski resort town but I wouldn't want to live there all year. Its catered really for tourists and there isn't much to do.
... ya its a lovely spot. Basically cottage country for the wealthy with a great golf course, a lake and the highest vertical in Quebec if your a skier or boarder. Seriously gutted from what it had been earlier & re-developed by Intrawest through the 90's & 00's based on their Whistler/Blackcomb model into a 12mnth of the year and very pricey destination resort.

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Originally Posted by jroc86 View Post
Koho paid for that home lol ...
.... if he sunk whatever they were paying him into high yield investments, quite possible.

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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
Or possibly he leveraged his position as one of the greatest players ever to play hockey into endorsements?
... sure, combined with investments, those monies reinvested in a combination of stocks, bonds, real estate holdings and whatever other opportunities that he may have been privy to as a member of the NHL Club, locally in Pennsylvania & elsewhere. He wouldve financed the bulk of the purchase of that Castle in Tremblant, which is one of the most prestigious addresses one could have in the province of Quebec, eastern Canada really. I dont begrudge his doing that whatsoever, nor I do find it hypocritical. Well deserved. Good for him.

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11-25-2012, 02:56 PM
  #34
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You are looking at his NHL salary but keep in mind he man probably got endorsements....probably some nice money off of the interest on his money in the bank as well lol.
Yes, and I asked in an earlier post if anyone knew that amount might be.


After taxes, agent fees, etc., it appears to me (and I may be wrong) that his player earnings alone wouldn't fund this lifestyle. Is there agreement at least that the Pens are probably making money and that franchise value has increased significantly?

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11-25-2012, 03:02 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I disagree because franchises for many owners are vehicles that allow returns in other areas. Jacobs may own the Bruins, but he also has a concession business and owns 20% (iirc) of NESN, the company that broadcasts the Bruins. If he weren't the owner of the team, he would have to compete to get that business from the Bruins owner. Leonsis owns the rights to his arena, and now is the majority owner of the NBA team there as well as his Caps. He has two anchor tenants and the rights to operating the arena. Lemieux et al. are making money from the Pens and in running the arena for all other events at the Consol Cntr.

The owners of the Leafs are actually the broadcast companies that will air the games. Snider has stakes in Comcast Spectator, which was acquired by Comcast (which owns NBC).
Jacobs also built the TD garden with Private funds, meaning he makes money on every event in the building.

I wonder how much of a lease he has the Bruins paying the TD garden to drive down their profit and HRR.

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11-25-2012, 03:03 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by JayzinSmith View Post
1984-85: $250,000
1985-86: $400,000
1986-87: $650,000
1987-88: $650,000
1988-89: $1,600,000
1989-90: $2,100,000
1990-91: $2,000,000
1991-92: $2,338,000
1992-93: $2,408,000 + $ deferred
1993-94: $5,000,000 + $ deferred
1994-95: sat out, $ deferred
1995-96: $4,571,000 + $1,071,400 deferred
1996-97: $11,321,429
1997-98: retired + $2,000,000
1998-99: retired
1999-00: retired
2000-01: $1,400,000
2001-02: $5,250,000
2002-03: $5,250,000
2003-04: $5,250,000
2004-05: lockout
2005-06: $3,000,000

http://www.hockeydraftcentral.com/1984/84001.html
Thank you.

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11-25-2012, 03:19 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Is there agreement at least that the Pens are probably making money and that franchise value has increased significantly?
... absolutely. Even if Pittsburgh's breaking even or losing a bit, the increase in overall franchise valuation combined with the rest of the businesses operations & holdings would provide the kind of collateral & leverage one might require in obtaining credit lines well beyond the $20M he dropped on whats clearly not some run of the mill A-Frame Viceroy or Lindal Cedar Homes pre-fab dealeo.... hammered together over a weekend. Sid the Kid up there hammering down shingles on the roof. Resting on concrete block foundations. An outhouse. No electricity. Propane power. Backup Honda generator....

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11-25-2012, 04:09 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Two things, you missed my edited addition at the bottom. And particularly this quote to highlight that the govt is ultimately responsible for the debt servicing:
See this

It isn't this

Quote:
plus convince tax payers to pay for your $320 MM arena = Cha ching.
When a real estate developer takes out a loan from a bank to build something, it isn't charity. The state is acting as a bank, including in the receiving of interest on a principle. And if the real estate developer defaults on the loan, the bank isn't acting as a corporate wellfare service. It's acting as a bank.


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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Is there agreement at least that the Pens are probably making money and that franchise value has increased significantly?
If the Penguins lose anything, it's on paper. There's no question they have a sweetheart deal. It's just not at noteworthy taxpayer expense (unlike both the Steelers and Pirates). If they're ripping anyone off, it's Rivers Casino, though Rivers doesn't seem to be upset about it, so I don't see why anyone else would be.

This is why you have reports like Frank Seravelli's that they were not only not in favor of the lockout, but that they approached Ed Snider in Mid November to spearhead a boardroom move to stop it on their behalf because they lack personnel who are inclined to or capable of navigating the NHL's governors in a boardroom.

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/SN/Ma...-Wyshynski.mp3

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11-25-2012, 04:35 PM
  #39
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In what universe is being paid $12 million per year a home town discount??

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11-25-2012, 04:40 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
Jacobs also built the TD garden with Private funds, meaning he makes money on every event in the building.... I wonder how much of a lease he has the Bruins paying the TD garden to drive down their profit and HRR.
... ya, and as purportedly the leading light on the NHL's side of the table in these fractious negotiations with the PA, Jacobs worthy of his own thread. It's been estimated that he made app $50M over the decade preceding the Bruins SC win through the team alone, $150M through the Garden (one of the top 3-5 arenas in NA in terms of cashbox). Then of course theres Delaware North, concessions & catering contracts all over the continent (and elsewhere) at just about every level that you could possibly imagine and then some.

Though private funds were indeed used to build the TD Garden, he received millions in tax breaks having promised to build a mega-plex of commercial, retail & residential around the arena, without a shovel much less a trowel having ever been sunk into the ground two decades later. Then there's his supposed munificence and benevolence, "charity minded", however, the vast majority of his donations go to his hometown & state of Buffalo NY, New England receiving paltry sums; the Boston Bruins Charity Foundation headed up by his son for example largely funded through raffles and the like. This is what were really dealing with here, not the likes of Lemieux leveraging his assets to buy a summer home in the Laurentians in his home province of Quebec.

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11-25-2012, 04:56 PM
  #41
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Imagine a business owner locking his players out of work to force them to take paycuts, while at the same time buying himself a 20 million dollar summer home.

They say timing is everything.

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11-25-2012, 05:03 PM
  #42
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Imagine a business owner locking his players out of work to force them to take paycuts, while at the same time buying himself a 20 million dollar summer home.... They say timing is everything.
.... ya, I agree the optics are pretty bad. Could be Im defending him a bit more than I should because I have spot for the guy, top 3 player of all time in my book. Fighting back from beyond ill health. Very nearly getting financially stiffed completely in Pittsburgh. Cut him a fair amount of slack as a result.

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11-25-2012, 05:22 PM
  #43
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Look at the poor struggling owner. This is his "second" home too. Screw the rich spoiled kids who play hockey. Give more pie and ice cream to the owners so they can make this game better.

In all honesty, this is another reason why I think the owners are a bunch of liars.
Just remember, Lemieux is only a minority owner. If he owned all of the Pens....
By the way, anybody think Lemieux is about to cash out and leave the hockey biz? Afterall way back when Balsillie was about to buy the team, I believe it was said Lemieux was selling for health reasons.

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11-25-2012, 05:34 PM
  #44
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I don't begrudge Lemieux his money. What I don't like is the use of taxpayer money to pave your way to extra riches. Sure, everyone that can do it does it, but that doesn't make it right. He even admits to using the threat of a move to get more money out of government. I also think this doesn't support the premise that most NHL teams are hurting financially. The Pens are a smaller market team. If you can get your players to take discounts and then hammer some more out of them via lockouts, get tax money to build you an arena, while crying poor to your fans..... yes, you too can build a second home for $20 MM.
The Penguins *always* spend to the cap, so I don't know why people are bringing up "hometown discounts" as if Lemieux and Burkle are pocketing that extra cash. They're using it to build the rest of the team.

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11-25-2012, 05:40 PM
  #45
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The Penguins *always* spend to the cap, so I don't know why people are bringing up "hometown discounts" as if Lemieux and Burkle are pocketing that extra cash. They're using it to build the rest of the team.
Home town discounts allowed them to stay under the cap.

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11-25-2012, 06:39 PM
  #46
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Home town discounts allowed them to stay under the cap.
They spend TO the cap. They're not pocketing the difference. What part of that don't you understand?

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11-25-2012, 07:01 PM
  #47
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I hate Mario for being extremely successful both as a player and in off-ice businesses.

He is the enemy.

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11-25-2012, 07:29 PM
  #48
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Look at the poor struggling owner. This is his "second" home too. Screw the rich spoiled kids who play hockey. Give more pie and ice cream to the owners so they can make this game better.
If you work hard and play in the NHL and invest right and get posession of an NHL team and go through a whole bunch of nonsense to do so, then get lucky enough to draft players who play well and pay them more than what you got paid as a player, and get a new arena built and casino revenue, then you too can build yourself a $20 million dollar second home. What's stopping you? I honestly don't see the issue here.

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11-25-2012, 07:43 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
Imagine a business owner locking his players out of work to force them to take paycuts, while at the same time buying himself a 20 million dollar summer home.

They say timing is everything.
It's called a mortgage. It'll be FUTURE profits that pay for it, not only past ones. If anything he's hindering his purchase by losing profit that could be applied to his instalment plan

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11-25-2012, 07:48 PM
  #50
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Mario's new house is the Best looking House I have ever seen in my life


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