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Luongo thread continued...

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Old
11-30-2012, 09:41 AM
  #501
ginner classic
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
So why Luongo himself wasn't traded for a 1st the last two time he was traded ?

Come on, this is not a standard procedure, its only common.

do you need a list of players who wasn't traded for a 1st ?

The standard procedure (50% of the trade involving a goalie) is another goalie coming back.
Ummm yeah....I'm going to need you to go ahead and assemble that goalie trade report. Thanks.

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11-30-2012, 09:44 AM
  #502
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
You can get rid of the "if any" part of that sentence as you know that is just not true. I for one, violate that.
Well everything that has occurred over the last few months says otherwise. IF Schneider didn't just re-sign a new multi-year contract, and IF Luongo didn't say "it's time to move on", then I would see your point that we could trade Schneider and keep Luongo. So basically, the only way Luongo stays is if you ignore everything that has happened, which is pretty stupid.

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11-30-2012, 09:46 AM
  #503
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Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
Actually his career regular season numbers are 727 GP and a .919 sv% so yeah kinda.
If i ask you if Luongo did win the stanley cup...

Will you reply :"Actually he made it to the 7th match of the stanley cup final, so yeah kinda" ?

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11-30-2012, 09:50 AM
  #504
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
If i ask you if Luongo did win the stanley cup...

Will you reply :"Actually he made it to the 7th match of the stanley cup final, so yeah kinda" ?
Winning a stanley cup doesn't determine a goaltender's value, it just shows the talent and skill of the whole team. Otherwise go hate on Lundqvist and Rinne while you're at it.

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11-30-2012, 09:50 AM
  #505
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
Ummm yeah....I'm going to need you to go ahead and assemble that goalie trade report. Thanks.
I will need more time to complete and update this list.......(probably edit this post in the future) here is a copy and paste of an old post of mine....it would be interresting to know the exact % of goalie trade involving a goalie coming back.......

- Halak (25yo in may 2010) = Eller + Ian Schultz

- Cedrik Desjardins (25yo) = Karri Ramo (24yo)

- Pascal leclaire (26yo) + 2nd round = Antoine Vermette.

- Rask (19yo) = Raycroft (26yo)

- Luongo (26yo) + Krajisek + 6th round = Bertuzzi + Bryan allen + Alex Auld

- Lehtonen (26yo) = Ivan Vishnevskiy + 4th round

- Garon (26yo) = Huet ---- Again a goalie for goalie trade.

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11-30-2012, 10:06 AM
  #506
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It's turning a bit personal in here. Let's clean it up, please.

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11-30-2012, 10:11 AM
  #507
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Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
Winning a stanley cup doesn't determine a goaltender's value, it just shows the talent and skill of the whole team. Otherwise go hate on Lundqvist and Rinne while you're at it.
Hate have nothing to do in this.

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11-30-2012, 10:16 AM
  #508
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Hate have nothing to do in this.
Then change your criteria for judging the quality of a goaltender. Winning a stanley cup excludes some of the league's best goalies so it's not really a great indicator.

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11-30-2012, 10:17 AM
  #509
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Hate have nothing to do in this.
Tell me, as i'm curious, what part about Luongo's game don't you think would fit in TO. The guy would instantly turn this team into a much better one. His past stats are not a fluke, he is a legit starter which we haven't had here in a LONG time. I get the contract concerns, i get the "i don't want to overpay" concerns....but to say he isn't good enough is ludicrous.

I mean...how can you degrade him for not winning the cup? The guy carried a team who scored 8...yes 8 total goals in 7 games.

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11-30-2012, 10:28 AM
  #510
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Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
Then change your criteria for judging the quality of a goaltender. Winning a stanley cup excludes some of the league's best goalies so it's not really a great indicator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Tell me, as i'm curious, what part about Luongo's game don't you think would fit in TO. The guy would instantly turn this team into a much better one. His past stats are not a fluke, he is a legit starter which we haven't had here in a LONG time. I get the contract concerns, i get the "i don't want to overpay" concerns....but to say he isn't good enough is ludicrous.

I mean...how can you degrade him for not winning the cup? The guy carried a team who scored 8...yes 8 total goals in 7 games.
My intention was not to degrade Luongo, i am just tired of people calling a 40 goals scorer someone who score 37-39 goals. Or
Calling a .920% goalie, someone who have .919%. Says 50 wins about a team who won 49 games etc... a 1st round draft pick about someone drafted 31-32th.

While we are at it, should we say about all the players who lost in the 7th match of the final that they won the cup ?

its so close!


Last edited by palindrom: 11-30-2012 at 10:36 AM.
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11-30-2012, 10:30 AM
  #511
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
No, you completely missed the point. The trend in this thread is to fewer and fewer Leafs fans posting, as a percentage of the posts. It is becoming dominated by Vancouver fans. It is simply because most of the Toronto fans are tired of discussing a trade that most Vancouver fans are demanding a ridiculous ransom for.
Vancouver fans will continue to come to a Luongo thread because he's their player and as a result have a vested interest in discussions about him regardless of who else is here.

The fact that there have ever been Leaf fans in this thread tells you that a lot of Leaf fans know that they could really use Luongo.

You don't see any NYR fans come in here.

Make a thread about Lundqvist and what he might cost, wait to find out what it is, offer them Kadri + 1st, then tell NYR fans that what they are asking for is ridiculous. I bet you'd see a lot of NYR fans tell you what they think too...and I bet its not because they are motivated to trade Lundqvist.

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11-30-2012, 10:39 AM
  #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
My intention was not to degrade Luongo, i am just tired of people calling a 40 goals scorer someone who score 37-39 goals. Or
Calling a .920% goalie, someone who have .919%. Says 50 wins about a team who won 49 games etc... a 1st round draft pick about someone drafted 31-32th.

While we are at it, should we say about all the players who lost in the 7th match of the final that they won the cup ?

its so close!
I agree. Which is why I also think it doesn't make sense to say a specific goalie is better than Luongo despite Luongo consistently putting up better numbers.

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11-30-2012, 10:40 AM
  #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
If i ask you if Luongo did win the stanley cup...

Will you reply :"Actually he made it to the 7th match of the stanley cup final, so yeah kinda" ?
You were asking about his statistics which he was off of the exact amount by 0.1%. And statistically speaking, over such a large sample size as 700+ games, that 0.1% isn't very significant at all. So if you would like me to change the answer, I'll just say "yes" so that its black and white.

You debating over whether .919 is not .920 with Luongo is a little asinine if you ask me. It would be different if you're talking about someone who has 100 career games or less but you're talking about someone with a large enough proven track record to not distinguish any real difference between the 2 numbers. And how does the difference make him any more/less valuable in trade? No GM is gonna care if Luongo has .919 or .920 for his save percentage if they are negotiating a trade for him. Other goalies with less history, maybe a GM is gonna care a little more about that save percentage but they would put it also in terms of the quality of shots faced, system in front of that goalie, etc, etc.

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Old
11-30-2012, 10:41 AM
  #514
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
I will need more time to complete and update this list.......(probably edit this post in the future) here is a copy and paste of an old post of mine....it would be interresting to know the exact % of goalie trade involving a goalie coming back.......

- Halak (25yo in may 2010) = Eller + Ian Schultz

- Cedrik Desjardins (25yo) = Karri Ramo (24yo)

- Pascal leclaire (26yo) + 2nd round = Antoine Vermette.

- Rask (19yo) = Raycroft (26yo)

- Luongo (26yo) + Krajisek + 6th round = Bertuzzi + Bryan allen + Alex Auld

- Lehtonen (26yo) = Ivan Vishnevskiy + 4th round

- Garon (26yo) = Huet ---- Again a goalie for goalie trade.
This is so pointless. There is so little precedent for a Roberto Luongo trade that really the most recent and most comparable deal was the last time he was traded. Even then that was in a different CBA environment, Luongo had a different contract situation (you may recall the Canucks had one year of his rights when he was acquired), etc.

Trying to make inferences about what Roberto Luongo is going to go for based on the Kari Ramo/Cedrick Desjardins deal is absolutely laughable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
My intention was not to derade Luongo, i am just tired of people calling a 40 goals scorer someone who score 37-39 goals. Or
Calling a .920% goalie, someone who have .919%. Says 50 wins about a team who won 47 games etc...

While we are at it, should we say about all the players who lost in the 7th match of the final that they won the cup ?

its so close!
Ugh. Hair splitting of the worst sort. Roberto Luongo's career save percentage is 0.9193079584775087 which means that if it was 0.0002 better you wouldn't have a leg to stand on as it would be rounded up to 0.920. That's five goals over an entire career, or less than half a goal per season. Or simply, one less bad game somewhere along the line.

As for your analogies, we're talking about a percentage over a career compared to counting stats. Calling Phil Kessel a "40 goal scorer" makes no sense because he never hits that mark, let alone hitting it year in and year out - whereas Luongo has hit and exceeded .920 several times and his career percentage is a hair's width off of that number.

Anyway this is far more time than I initially intended to spend on the subject, but at least I'm not going on for multiple posts about how someone was a hundredth of a percentage point off on a stat they used.

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11-30-2012, 10:50 AM
  #515
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post


Ugh. Hair splitting of the worst sort. Roberto Luongo's career save percentage is 0.9193079584775087 which means that if it was 0.0002 better you wouldn't have a leg to stand on as it would be rounded up to 0.920. That's five goals over an entire career, or less than half a goal per season. Or simply, one less bad game somewhere along the line.

.
That is about the difference between Luongo having a Stanley cup or not......insignificant

Also if we include his playoff stats his saves % drop. (why shouldn't we used these stats ? I am sure you would had used them if they was over .920)


Last edited by palindrom: 11-30-2012 at 11:37 AM.
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11-30-2012, 10:56 AM
  #516
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I agree. Which is why I also think it doesn't make sense to say a specific goalie is better than Luongo despite Luongo consistently putting up better numbers.
Luongo value is close to Vokoun value IMO

Career Number are close

Luongo is a bit younger, but Vokoun have a better contract and better Number since the lockout.


Last edited by palindrom: 11-30-2012 at 11:06 AM.
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11-30-2012, 11:05 AM
  #517
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
Vancouver fans will continue to come to a Luongo thread because he's their player and as a result have a vested interest in discussions about him regardless of who else is here.

The fact that there have ever been Leaf fans in this thread tells you that a lot of Leaf fans know that they could really use Luongo.

You don't see any NYR fans come in here.

Make a thread about Lundqvist and what he might cost, wait to find out what it is, offer them Kadri + 1st, then tell NYR fans that what they are asking for is ridiculous. I bet you'd see a lot of NYR fans tell you what they think too...and I bet its not because they are motivated to trade Lundqvist.
Lundqvist is worth it, Luongo is not.

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11-30-2012, 11:07 AM
  #518
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
No, you completely missed the point. The trend in this thread is to fewer and fewer Leafs fans posting, as a percentage of the posts. It is becoming dominated by Vancouver fans. It is simply because most of the Toronto fans are tired of discussing a trade that most Vancouver fans are demanding a ridiculous ransom for.


I think it's most (not all) TO fans not being able to get a dollar for a penny that are getting tired of this thread. The VAN fans still here don't buy into it, and make it known.



If the objective remains that on your end, be prepared for the opposition. It's only logical. After all, Luongo is still a Canuck at this point.

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11-30-2012, 11:13 AM
  #519
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Luongo value is close to Vokoun value IMO

Career Number are close

Luongo is a bit younger, but Vokoun have a better contract and better Number since the lockout.

Luongo's value is close to Vokoun's? It what world?


Listen Palindrom, you have already been corrected on numerous occasions about VAN's situation, the most notable of which was Schneider's "value" as pointed out to you by NFITO. I can dig up the post if you like?


Point is, this is fruitless on your part. VAN fans are unlikely to agree with pretty much anything you say, so move on. It's for the best.

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11-30-2012, 11:16 AM
  #520
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I think it's most (not all) TO fans not being able to get a dollar for a penny that are getting tired of this thread. The VAN fans still here don't buy into it, and make it known.



If the objective remains that on your end, be prepared for the opposition. It's only logical. After all, Luongo is still a Canuck at this point.
As a leaf fan I will tell you I do not expect him at that ratio. Now I will tell you it has to be IMO, at a good price as we are not a good or deep enough team yet to sacrifice what he may be actually worth. Now that being said, like it or not in the cap era period, most not all values have lowered. Also while van doesn't have to trade LOU, they are not in the position of strength their fans thimk. I say this because as an owner 5,333333 cap hit or whatever it is howlong do you think they are gonna wanna pay him his 6.7 mil? I am guessing a season at best, if of course Schneider pans out, which he should. So basically it boils down to this, he is worth more then what Leaf fans(or any other teams fans) wanna pay, but he is not what Nucks fans hope to get.

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11-30-2012, 11:17 AM
  #521
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Luongo's value is close to Vokoun's? It what world?


Listen Palindrom, you have already been corrected on numerous occasions about VAN's situation, the most notable of which was Schneider's "value" as pointed out to you by NFITO. I can dig up the post if you like?


Point is, this is fruitless on your part. VAN fans are unlikely to agree with pretty much anything you say, so move on. It's for the best.
I was incorrect in believing Schneider would not sign with Vancouver long term while Luongo is there. (at the time i did say it i was missing some piece of information that may have influenced Schneider decision like: its possible Luongo could be traded!).

Schneider's value? How was i incorrect? Who know Schneider value? What is his exact value?

In many Schneider to phoenix thread i was pointing Schneider had a low value because of the quality of cheap UFA goalie. I believe their GM had similar opinion.

At least he didn't trade for any young goalie, he acquired a cheap UFA as i suggested was the right summer 2011 strategy. Florida did the same with success.


Last edited by palindrom: 11-30-2012 at 11:28 AM.
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11-30-2012, 11:39 AM
  #522
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
I was incorrect in believing Schneider would not sign with Vancouver long term while Luongo is there. (at the time i did say it i was missing some piece of information that may have influenced Schneider decision like: its possible Luongo could be traded!).

Schneider's value? How was i incorrect? Who know Schneider value? What is his exact value?

In many Schneider to phoenix thread i was pointing Schneider had a low value because of the quality of cheap UFA goalie. I believe their GM had similar opinion.

At least he didn't trade for any young goalie, he acquired a cheap UFA as i suggested was the right summer 2011 strategy. Florida did the same with success.


Your reply is nothing I already haven't seen from you Palindrom. Most of it incorrect. So I'm looking for appropriate responses that NFITO has posted to you, and will re-post them when the discussion goes in that direction. You've already been wrong, more than once, and have been corrected by people far more eloquent than I, so maybe you need a reminder?


It's up to you...


Oh and for the record, can you post what you think Vokoun's value actually is in assets so that when Luongo gets traded for far more, you can be called out on it? Thank you.

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11-30-2012, 11:40 AM
  #523
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Lundqvist is worth it, Luongo is not.
Right, because that's the point of the post.

Thanks for adding nothing.

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11-30-2012, 11:50 AM
  #524
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Your reply is nothing I already haven't seen from you Palindrom. Most of it incorrect. So I'm looking for appropriate responses that NFITO has posted to you, and will re-post them when the discussion goes in that direction. You've already been wrong, more than once, and have been corrected by people far more eloquent than I, so maybe you need a reminder?


It's up to you...


Oh and for the record, can you post what you think Vokoun's value actually is in assets so that when Luongo gets traded for far more, you can be called out on it? Thank you.
You mean a late pick isn't going to land Luongo??? DAMMIT!!! Back to the drawing board.

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11-30-2012, 11:55 AM
  #525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Luongo value is close to Vokoun value IMO

Career Number are close

Luongo is a bit younger, but Vokoun have a better contract and better Number since the lockout.
If by "better contract" you meant "had a few days left until UFA started", then sure. And Vokoun is a solid goalie imo, but Luongo is still better.

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