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Luongo thread continued...

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Old
11-27-2012, 02:30 AM
  #151
DJOpus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
So, what would you consider it with a 33 year old Luongo with 10 years left? And i am not being argumentative, i realky can't remember, was that right after the Steve Moore thing?
The problem is, Bertuzzi was a whole other magnitude from Lupul.

Bertuzzi at that point probably had more value than Phil Kessel does now being that he was recently a 1st team all-NHL (as in voted one of the top 2 wingers in the league) and played a power game that is always sought after highly.

It would be more like:
-Kessel, Gunnarson, and Reimer for Luongo, Tanev, and 6th...

Also, for context, remember that Luongo was a soon to be UFA when he was traded out of Florida and he hadn't negotiated a long-term deal to stay when he was dealt. Nonis stated as much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
When was the last time a goalie, that hasn't been an All Star in three years, who has a clause in his contract that will allow him to dictate who his team could trade him to, possibly limiting it to two or three teams, who may or may not be interested?
To clearify here, are you implying that playing in the all-star game is more important than actually being nominated for the Veizna (which he was in 2011)? That's what the three years implies.


Last edited by slocal: 11-27-2012 at 05:52 AM. Reason: flame
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11-27-2012, 05:51 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Burke _chose_ to allow CBA talks to become a factor, which is dubious in of itself. Think about it. The landscape is that you are the sole team with the greatest need, and VAN has the clearest upgrade. No other suitors are clear favourites, not even FLA. So Burke's best idea is to become subject to a changing landscape, where the position of teams will change and ability of VAN to move Luongo (having to take on the extra years making his contract phenomenal) likely increases? This is smart how?



All Burke had to do was get close without breaking the bank. I have no doubt in my mind that Gardiner is the sticking point between these teams. And if he is, Burke could remove him by throwing _extra_ value overall, or by including him and reducing the surrounding assets in the deal. Meaning, there are options. But yet he chose to stay conservative for 3 months hoping the landscape still favours him after all is said and done? Highly doubtful. Again, there was no smoke on this until Shannon said something well into the lockout.
So the talk of the new CBA penalizing circumvented deals by removing the "out loopholes" shouldn't worry anyone? Thats ridiculous.

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11-27-2012, 07:17 AM
  #153
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I would rather have a top pick in 2013 then give up anything of significant value for Luongo. Seeing Luongo ridding the pine at 5.3 for an entire season is an added bonus.

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11-27-2012, 07:32 AM
  #154
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Hey bleach. I think i have figured out were we differ. You firmly believe that Burke is stalling and will eventually pay Gillis' price. I on the other hand believe that if Gillis holds firm, a deal between these two does not get done. It isn't about wasting time. Burke has a price in his head and whether you and i agree on it, he isn't going to move much. I think your scouts are there because Burke has made an offer(s) and let Van know what players he would deal.

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11-27-2012, 08:10 AM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post



To clearify here, are you implying that playing in the all-star game is more important than actually being nominated for the Veizna (which he was in 2011)? That's what the three years implies.
No, my second post should tell you what the point was.

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11-27-2012, 08:11 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
We are currently speculating on the now. If we lose a year and we have a shot at getting Perry, well all bets are off I guess, but both of those things are a fairly long shot at this moment. I think throwing out the line well we don't know what the CBA looks like is kind of stupid. I mean I understand it, but if any of us really thought it, why would we be here? I could use this in any thread on this board. I don't know, just my thoughts, the best we can do is speculate on what we know... which may be not much.
Well, we can speculate all we want, but what the CBA looks like, and when it is completed factors heavily in any deal to trade Luongo.

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11-27-2012, 08:15 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post



All Burke had to do was get close without breaking the bank. I have no doubt in my mind that Gardiner is the sticking point between these teams. And if he is, Burke could remove him by throwing _extra_ value overall, or by including him and reducing the surrounding assets in the deal. Meaning, there are options. But yet he chose to stay conservative for 3 months hoping the landscape still favours him after all is said and done? Highly doubtful. Again, there was no smoke on this until Shannon said something well into the lockout.
It seems as though you are somewhat vested in a position that you have convinced yourself is true. If Gardiner is indeed the sticking point, as a Leafs fan, I'll be satisfied looking for our Goaltender solution elsewhere. I don't think we are even in the same time zone here on what you feel would need to happen for Vancouver to do a deal.

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11-27-2012, 08:17 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Well, we can speculate all we want, but what the CBA looks like, and when it is completed factors heavily in any deal to trade Luongo.
Exactly, the new CBA/length of the lockout is a major issue. If the season is lost, there are a bunch of factors from UFAs from both TO and others. Maybe more options open up, Lupul will need to be resigned or let walk...Luongo is another year older...draft lottery..etc.

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11-27-2012, 08:37 AM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Hey bleach. I think i have figured out were we differ. You firmly believe that Burke is stalling and will eventually pay Gillis' price. I on the other hand believe that if Gillis holds firm, a deal between these two does not get done. It isn't about wasting time. Burke has a price in his head and whether you and i agree on it, he isn't going to move much. I think your scouts are there because Burke has made an offer(s) and let Van know what players he would deal.
Pretty much. Burke never had an eye for goaltending talent anyway, so he's not going to give up the required amount to get a good goalie.

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11-27-2012, 08:45 AM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
These things, among other factors, can cause the landscape to change to Burke's detriment. He's already climbing uphill IMO by having the greatest current need and known animosity with Gillis. Add in a few more things and any potential to this deal will be squandered. IMO, Burke waited too long... so let's see what happens now.
Is it Burke who waited, or Gillis who waited?

Would it have been prudent for Gillis to accept Lupul, Bozak, Lombardi and Steckel before the lockout? You lose the season, and traded for a bunch of UFA's how does it look?

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11-27-2012, 08:48 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Taelin View Post
Pretty much. Burke never had an eye for goaltending talent anyway, so he's not going to give up the required amount to get a good goalie.
Who was the GM of Vancouver when they brought Luongo on board, and where is he now? Burke may have a poor record with goalies, but there is a reason he's brought others onto the management team with him.

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11-27-2012, 09:33 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Who was the GM of Vancouver when they brought Luongo on board, and where is he now? Burke may have a poor record with goalies, but there is a reason he's brought others onto the management team with him.
Nonis was Burke's assistant when the Canucks were running with Cloutier as their #1 goalie. Goaltending didn't get fixed until he took over as GM. Coincidence? Maybe, or maybe Nonis couldnt do anything about it unitl stubborn, goalie ignorant Burke was out of the way.

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11-27-2012, 09:36 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Who was the GM of Vancouver when they brought Luongo on board, and where is he now? Burke may have a poor record with goalies, but there is a reason he's brought others onto the management team with him.
Then you're hoping Burke gets fired and replaced with Nonis. Look for your drafting to be horrible then (2007 draft for the Canucks)!

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11-27-2012, 09:57 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Hey bleach. I think i have figured out were we differ. You firmly believe that Burke is stalling and will eventually pay Gillis' price. I on the other hand believe that if Gillis holds firm, a deal between these two does not get done. It isn't about wasting time. Burke has a price in his head and whether you and i agree on it, he isn't going to move much. I think your scouts are there because Burke has made an offer(s) and let Van know what players he would deal.
Of course he has a price in his head. It may or may not be enough to get a deal done, and he may or may not have stated that reservation price to Gillis.

One thing I know is....nobody here knows what that price is.

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11-27-2012, 10:25 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
Of course he has a price in his head. It may or may not be enough to get a deal done, and he may or may not have stated that reservation price to Gillis.

One thing I know is....nobody here knows what that price is.
True, what we do know is at the draft Gillis himself admited his price was the reason a deal didn't get done with ANY team.

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11-27-2012, 10:28 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Taelin View Post
Pretty much. Burke never had an eye for goaltending talent anyway, so he's not going to give up the required amount to get a good goalie.
As far as i can tell, nobody has given up the "required" amount for Luongo. In my opinion, Tampa had a bigger need for Luongo than TO as they are closer to contending, Stevie didn't pay the "required" amount either.

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11-27-2012, 10:30 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
Nonis was Burke's assistant when the Canucks were running with Cloutier as their #1 goalie. Goaltending didn't get fixed until he took over as GM. Coincidence? Maybe, or maybe Nonis couldnt do anything about it unitl stubborn, goalie ignorant Burke was out of the way.
There's no indication that Burke has changed his ways when it comes to goalies. He may make plenty of trades for them, but he still seems to try to cut that one corner. And he'll do it over and over and over and over. I am not sure how many 2nd rounders he's given up while doing this, but I'd venture at least 4 with Vancouver alone. He did OK on the Cloutier (initially) and Hiller transactions, but wasted a lot of good playoff years betting on dogs that could not hunt.

Vancouver
Kevin Weekes - Trade 1998 (Bure trade)
Corey Schwab - ? 1999
Felix Potvin - Trade 2000 (Weekes, Muckalt and Scatchard for Potvin and a Second and Third Rounder)
Bob Essensa - UFA 2000
Petr Skudra - UFA 2001
Dan Cloutier - Trade 2001 (Adrian Aucoin and a 2nd rounder - Andrei Polushin)
Alex Auld - Trade 2001 (2nd and 3rd round picks - Tuomas Pihlman, John Adams)
Johan Hedberg - Trade 2004 (2nd round pick - Alex Goligoski)
Mika Noronen - Trade 2006 (2nd round pick - Jhonas Enroth....Lucic taken three picks later) - EDIT Actually a Nonis Deal
Maxime Ouellet - Trade 2006 (5th rounder)
- EDIT Actually a Nonis Deal
Anaheim
Hiller - UFA
Toronto
Gerber - Waivers
Jonas Gustavsson - UFA 2009
Ben Scrivens - UFA 2010
Jussi Rynnas - UFA 2010
Giguere - Trade 2010


Last edited by ginner classic: 11-27-2012 at 10:50 AM.
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11-27-2012, 10:31 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
True, what we do know is at the draft Gillis himself admited his price was the reason a deal didn't get done with ANY team.
We know they have not agreed on a price because no trade has been made yet.

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11-27-2012, 10:37 AM
  #169
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What I find odd with Burke and goaltending, is he always seems to look for a "deal." Sort of in a similar venue to a used car salesman, albeit he is the stool pigeon that ends up with a lemon. For one reason or another, he throws the dice on nobodies and winds up burnt on nearly ever occasion, let has never learned his lesson. You have to love the sheer irony of the Rask trade.

Far as I'm concerned. If we can acquire Lupul in a deal, then by all means, let's do it however, I doubt Burke has any intention of doing so.

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11-27-2012, 10:43 AM
  #170
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Fogelhund

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Exactly, the new CBA/length of the lockout is a major issue. If the season is lost, there are a bunch of factors from UFAs from both TO and others. Maybe more options open up, Lupul will need to be resigned or let walk...Luongo is another year older...draft lottery..etc.
While I agree the new CBA will factor in, all we can and have done is speculate on the what if's for now. Speculating on a year from now... it is nearly impossible with the number of moving parts.

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11-27-2012, 10:46 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
What I find odd with Burke and goaltending, is he always seems to look for a "deal." Sort of in a similar venue to a used car salesman, albeit he is the stool pigeon that ends up with a lemon. For one reason or another, he throws the dice on nobodies and winds up burnt on nearly ever occasion, let has never learned his lesson. You have to love the sheer irony of the Rask trade.

Far as I'm concerned. If we can acquire Lupul in a deal, then by all means, let's do it however, I doubt Burke has any intention of doing so.
Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think Burke traded Rask.

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11-27-2012, 10:51 AM
  #172
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Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think Burke traded Rask.
He was drafted by Toronto and his rights traded to Boston for Raycroft. So they did indeed. Source if you're curious.

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11-27-2012, 10:52 AM
  #173
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He was drafted by Toronto and his rights traded to Boston for Raycroft. So they did indeed.
They did, Burke didn't.

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11-27-2012, 10:53 AM
  #174
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He was drafted by Toronto and his rights traded to Boston for Raycroft. So they did indeed. Source if you're curious.
That was a JFJ trade.

I did not even need to look. You know one thing, by the time Burke trades away a goalie there is absolutely no chance they'll play well again. HE is a "goalie graveyard". Only Bryz when on to good things and that was some weird circumstance.

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11-27-2012, 11:02 AM
  #175
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Ah, my mistake. Certainly has been a while since Toronto has iced a legitimate goalie. As for Bryz, I still consider him more a product of Phoenix.

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