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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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Old
12-05-2012, 03:49 PM
  #276
Big Phil
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It is important to note that the Russians haven't won a best on best tournament since 1981. Since then Canada has won 6. USA has won once. Czech once and Sweden once. Granted they have been close (1984, 1987, 1998) but it has been over 30 years since the Russians were deemed the best in the world. That is an awfully long time for a country to go without winning a top level tournament and try to make a claim that they are #1. You have to have results.

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12-05-2012, 03:57 PM
  #277
Macman
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Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
I don't get why so many people think the Canada Cups were always 'best vs. best' and all competing countries held the tournament with same high regard and importance as Canada does/did. That clearly doesn't seem to be the case.

1976 Canada CUp



1991 Canada Cup



I believe some of the same could have been said of the Czech team as well.

For the record I certainly don't think the Canada Cups should be dismissed I just think this is stuff we should keep in mind before we go around down playing other's accomplishments while bragging about Canada's.

There's a huge difference between choosing not to bring your best and not being able or allowed to bring your best. That's the difference between the Canada Cup and every other tournament played to that point. It gave all of hockey's top countries the opportunity to bring their absolute best for the first time. If some didn't once or twice, that's their problem.

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12-05-2012, 04:02 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Macman View Post
There's a huge difference between choosing not to bring your best and not being able or allowed to bring your best. That's the difference between the Canada Cup and every other tournament played to that point. It gave all of hockey's top countries the opportunity to bring their absolute best for the first time. If some didn't once or twice, that's their problem.
Not sure how this changes the fact not all teams where full strength.

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12-05-2012, 04:07 PM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
I don't get why so many people think the Canada Cups were always 'best vs. best' and all competing countries held the tournament with same high regard and importance as Canada does/did. That clearly doesn't seem to be the case.

1976 Canada CUp



1991 Canada Cup



I believe some of the same could have been said of the Czech team as well.

For the record I certainly don't think the Canada Cups should be dismissed I just think this is stuff we should keep in mind before we go around down playing other's accomplishments while bragging about Canada's.
The Olympics is a global event, so that obviously was priority #1 for the Soviets.

The Canada Cup was an unknown/obscure tournament outside of the hockey community and fans.


"All our thoughts are directed toward the Olympics. We use the Canada Cup as a good school." - Slava Fetisov.

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12-05-2012, 04:13 PM
  #280
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nope

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12-05-2012, 04:14 PM
  #281
Macman
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Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
Not sure how this changes the fact not all teams where full strength.
Is any team ever at full strength? Niedermayer was hurt for the 2006 Olympics. Do I get to now claim that it wasn't a best-on-best and therefore doesn't count? We have Europeans claiming here that the world championships matter even though many more players don't play in the thing every year than ever occurred even once at the Canada Cup.

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12-05-2012, 04:20 PM
  #282
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No, Canada still is #1. They still have the best players and the best depth. But using a tournament that was over 2 years ago as an argument is pretty stupid.

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12-05-2012, 04:22 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
"All our thoughts are directed toward the Olympics. We use the Canada Cup as a good school." - Slava Fetisov.
Sure, they played the best pros in Canada as practice for the real event against overmatched Canadian amateurs.

I doubt even Slava believed that.

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12-05-2012, 04:33 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Lapa View Post
No, Canada still is #1. They still have the best players and the best depth. But using a tournament that was over 2 years ago as an argument is pretty stupid.
I think calling such an argument stupid represents an attempt at hyperbole, considering any other method you present to evaluate hockey nations would have similar if not greater flaws than using the Vancouver 2010 results.

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12-05-2012, 04:41 PM
  #285
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Russia isn't the best hockey country in the world anymore than the KHL is the best league in the world.

Be very, very happy at #2.

But watch out for the US.


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12-05-2012, 04:43 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
In your own explanation you provide numerous reasons for why the WHC are not best-on-best. And how is it a nation's problem if their best players are successful in the NHL playoffs? Instead, it demonstrates that such nations produce world class players that achieve success in best league in the world.

Like it or not, a majority of Canadian and American players do not view the WHC as prestigious because it is held during the NHL playoffs. It is viewed as a "loser" or runners-up tournament accessible only to those that are not competing for the Stanley Cup, the big prize. I understand European players have, in general, a more positive view of the WHC because they grew up with a different view towards the tournament. Unless the IIHF changes the schedule (and perhaps rotates the tournament to NA more often) the Canadian and Americans will always be sending an "expeditionary force" team to the Euro-focused WHC.
Agree that the scheduling can be tweaked to accomodate better players but to shoot down the WHC is ignorant IMO. National pride vs corporate money.. You dont see soccer players (stars) prefering EPL (english premier league) over a chance to represent their country.
$$ plays a big role .. pay the "national" players good money and the teams will get stronger.

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12-05-2012, 04:45 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Macman View Post
Is any team ever at full strength? Niedermayer was hurt for the 2006 Olympics. Do I get to now claim that it wasn't a best-on-best and therefore doesn't count?
If you want to make that claim sure, it's cool with me.

Just my opinion but the way I look at is injuries are unfortunately pretty common and something that every national team is going to need to deal with on a regular bases. An entire political system collapsing and plunging a whole country into chaos and as a result greatly impacting player selection is a bit different and not as common.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman View Post
We have Europeans claiming here that the world championships matter even though many more players don't play in the thing every year than ever occurred even once at the Canada Cup.
Not sure the point you are trying to make it here. Is this directed specifically at me? I am not European and never said the WC or the CC do/did not matter.

Really my whole point though is Canada treats the CC as the end all and be all of hockey tournaments which is fine, but not everyone else does. We can all dismiss things like the WC and the Olympics (pre 98) as meaningless we should just keep in mind that others might think of the CC the same way. A country can have a full strength roster but if the players, coach and federation doesn't care or values other tournaments more...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman View Post
Sure, they played the best pros in Canada as practice for the real event against overmatched Canadian amateurs.

I doubt even Slava believed that.
I honestly don't see what is so hard to believe about a Soviet player valueing something as internationally recognizable as an Olympic gold medal over something called the Canada Cup that is really only recognizable in... well Canada.


Last edited by CoolForumNamePending: 12-05-2012 at 07:31 PM.
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12-05-2012, 04:45 PM
  #288
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No matter how many times they get beat Canadians will never admit it. They will always come up with an excuse like Gretzky wasn't playing, Connor McDavid wasn't playing, face it guys other countries are catching up.

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12-05-2012, 04:47 PM
  #289
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When Russia wins a best on best tournament, they will be the best.

Until they do, they are not.

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12-05-2012, 04:56 PM
  #290
Macman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
Not sure the point you are trying to make it here. Is this directed specifically at me? I am not European and never said the WC or the CC do/did not matter.

Really my whole point though is Canada treats the CC as the end all and be all of hockey tournaments which is fine, but not everyone else does. We can all dismiss things like the WC and the Olympics (pre 98) as meaningless we should just keep in mind that others might think of the CC the same way.
No it wasn't directed at you.

Let's be honest, the real reason others, namely Russia, dismiss the Canada Cup is their lack of success at it. Had they won almost all of them like Canada did, it would be heralded as the pinnacle of hockey supremacy. They didn't, so it's maligned.

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12-05-2012, 05:03 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Macman View Post
No it wasn't directed at you.

Let's be honest, the real reason others, namely Russia, dismiss the Canada Cup is their lack of success at it. Had they won almost all of them like Canada did, it would be heralded as the pinnacle of hockey supremacy. They didn't, so it's maligned.
There is probably some truth to that... They did still manage to win once though and I would be willing to bet it carries considerably less prestige in Russia than any of their Olympic or even WC wins.

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12-05-2012, 05:11 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Yes the difference in style of game is the #1 barrier (this includes rink size and rules, plus much more), but that doesn't nullify that off-ice barriers play an important factor in on-ice performance. Of course it varies per individual, but the overall impact can't be dismissed. Common sense should tell us this....Xokkeu even countered your soccer argument with several examples.

Note: One thing the NHL learned from the 1st wave of Soviet imports was that assistance in off-ice integration is essential for success. If off-ice cultural barriers didn't greatly affect on-ice performance, there'd be little incentive for NHL teams to do as such.
Just like how according to common sense almost everyone thought that hosting an international hockey tournament gave the host team an advantage, whereas the numbers show the exact opposite to be true.

All things being equal everyone has a preference as to where they would play. If you think not playing in the location of your choice inhibits player performance then please show some sort of evidence. Your example above doesn't mean much to me. NHL teams do things all the time to keep their players happy, they are after all competing with other clubs for the players.

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12-05-2012, 05:13 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Macman View Post
Sure, they played the best pros in Canada as practice for the real event against overmatched Canadian amateurs.

I doubt even Slava believed that.

You're thinking as a Canadian and missing the point.

Despite a higher level of competition, the Canada Cup meant less to Soviets. The olympics was the ultimate global stage for the Soviets to show superiority (i.e. Soviet propaganda), therefore, from the higher ups down, more importance and emphasis was put on olympic achievement.

Beyond the realms of the hockey world, the Canada Cup was insignificant......this wasn't the case with the olympics.

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12-05-2012, 05:20 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
When Russia wins a best on best tournament, they will be the best.

Until they do, they are not.
not Russia's fault if other nations are not sending 'best players'. Beating the best nations is good enough for national pride and international rankings ..

Would people stop caring about WJHC2013 if guys like Yakupov etc play for KHL instead..
TSN hypes it up like it is nothing short of Olympics when in reality a good percentage of the best juniors arent even a part of it.

best on best never works.

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12-05-2012, 05:48 PM
  #295
Macman
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
You're thinking as a Canadian and missing the point.

Despite a higher level of competition, the Canada Cup meant less to Soviets. The olympics was the ultimate global stage for the Soviets to show superiority (i.e. Soviet propaganda), therefore, from the higher ups down, more importance and emphasis was put on olympic achievement.

Beyond the realms of the hockey world, the Canada Cup was insignificant......this wasn't the case with the olympics.

I agree with you to a degree. It was propaganda but so was Fetisov's comment. Winning the Olympics meant more to the Soviet masters, but I'll never believe that pounding inferior competition at the Olympics meant anywhere near as much to guys like Fetisov as pounding Canada's best did in '81. Let's put it this way, I never saw the Big Red Machine celebrate after a world or Olympic gold like they did in Montreal.

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12-05-2012, 06:04 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by canuck2010 View Post
The "World Championship" has never been best on best. Actually the Stanley Cup playoffs help level the playing field for second tier countries which is good for the game.
To say that "World Championships" isn't best on best is the same as saying "European Championships" in soccer isn't best on best because Brazil and Argentina isn't participating.

Every nations comes with the best players they have at the time the tournament is. Everyone who are not available are not there for some reason. Playoffs, injured, said no(and that is that nations problem, address it and they won't say no).

True, the Stanley Cup has helped leveling the field, but it isn't always the best players who are left in that tournament either. Pittsburgh might get knocked out early, Washington early, Detroit early and so on...


If Brazil and/or several other teams in soccer have 7 guys out with injuries or suspensions in the FIFA World Cup, it's still a best on best tournament. Nations play with their best players available at the time. Stop cherry-picking for it to suit a purpose.

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12-05-2012, 06:08 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Don't worry, if there is something important going on in Europe Canadians will show up. You'd think after two world wars and almost 100 million dead guys like you would have learned to cool it just a bit on the European nationalism thing.

Anyway, I would say no tournament can claim to be a best on best if Norway's mens hockey team doesn't attend!
If we couldn't qualify, we were not good enough.

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12-05-2012, 06:23 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
To say that "World Championships" isn't best on best is the same as saying "European Championships" in soccer isn't best on best because Brazil and Argentina isn't participating.

Every nations comes with the best players they have at the time the tournament is. Everyone who are not available are not there for some reason. Playoffs, injured, said no(and that is that nations problem, address it and they won't say no).

True, the Stanley Cup has helped leveling the field, but it isn't always the best players who are left in that tournament either. Pittsburgh might get knocked out early, Washington early, Detroit early and so on...


If Brazil and/or several other teams in soccer have 7 guys out with injuries or suspensions in the FIFA World Cup, it's still a best on best tournament. Nations play with their best players available at the time. Stop cherry-picking for it to suit a purpose.
Every team has injuries. That's not the issue. The FIFA World Cup is considered a best-on-best because it doesn't conflict with other leagues when it's held. The IIHF championship does. Big difference.

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12-05-2012, 06:47 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
To say that "World Championships" isn't best on best is the same as saying "European Championships" in soccer isn't best on best because Brazil and Argentina isn't participating.

Every nations comes with the best players they have at the time the tournament is. Everyone who are not available are not there for some reason. Playoffs, injured, said no(and that is that nations problem, address it and they won't say no).

True, the Stanley Cup has helped leveling the field, but it isn't always the best players who are left in that tournament either. Pittsburgh might get knocked out early, Washington early, Detroit early and so on...


If Brazil and/or several other teams in soccer have 7 guys out with injuries or suspensions in the FIFA World Cup, it's still a best on best tournament. Nations play with their best players available at the time. Stop cherry-picking for it to suit a purpose.

More like if they held the Euros in May and made players release contingent on club availability, much like a CONCACAF youth tournament.

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12-05-2012, 06:48 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Macman View Post
Every team has injuries. That's not the issue. The FIFA World Cup is considered a best-on-best because it doesn't conflict with other leagues when it's held. The IIHF championship does. Big difference.
No, but if better players are playing in WHC than SCF then its not a meaningless tournament, even if its bit euro centric and Canadians care only for WJHC, which we here do not even get on TV, or know its going on.

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