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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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Old
12-06-2012, 12:05 PM
  #326
Petro Points
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Originally Posted by SilverSeven View Post
And no one outside of europe gives a **** about the World Championships. 2 of the 3 biggest hockey countries dont give a crap about it.

Sure some minor hockey countries do, but so what?
not a very good excuse.... if USA didnt care about WJHC it would still be considered big in Canada. Dont blame the 'minor' countries for not giving a damn about 2 countires that cant send its best players to a world tourney..

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12-06-2012, 12:06 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
not a very good excuse.... if USA didnt care about WJHC it would still be considered big in Canada. Dont blame the 'minor' countries for not giving a damn about 2 countires that cant send its best players to a world tourney..
I agree it isnt. It was in response to a poster claiming the Canada Cup didnt matter because Europeans didnt care.

For some reason, if a Canadian doesnt care about the WHC its invalid, but its totally valid for euros not to care about the Canada Cup (probably because they dont fare nearly as well in best on best tournaments) Its similar to how we play on international ice with international rules all the time without whining, but if you play on NA sized ice, or with NA rules its a big issue.

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12-06-2012, 12:10 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by SilverSeven View Post
Hell no. I dont want to risk my teams star players getting hurt for the WHC. Its bad enough when it happens at the Olympics (Hasek ).

The Olympics wont reschedule because it REQUIRES winter, and is FAR bigger than hockey.

The WHC refusing to reschedule around the biggest league in the world, a league that is older than it is, and that contains like 99% of the worlds best players is just further evidence that the IIHF is a europe first organization.
Thats the NA mentality brainwashed by NHL hype created by our media. 'Your team' to you is the team of your city while it is "the nation" to fans of most other major sports.

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12-06-2012, 12:16 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
Thats the NA mentality brainwashed by NHL hype created by our media. 'Your team' to you is the team of your city while it is "the nation" to fans of most other major sports.
What you said doesnt change anything. I dont want my teams star players getting hurt when the tournament could very easily be held outside of the season. There is literally no reason to hold it during the season.

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12-06-2012, 12:21 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by SilverSeven View Post
What you said doesnt change anything. I dont want my teams star players getting hurt when the tournament could very easily be held outside of the season. There is literally no reason to hold it during the season.
That is fine.. but dont bash fans who dont want players of their nation playing in NHL\CHL\AHL and getting injured for WHC\ Olympics..

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12-06-2012, 12:26 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Skobel24 View Post
While I don't think Russia is far behind, I still believe Canada is the #1. If you were to pit the best of the best of these two in a seven game series, it's going to be a close series. However, when you look at the quantity as well as quality produced from Canada, it puts them ahead. Russia has done an amazing job developing some of these young forwards, but I don't believe they're at the same level. Russia is definitely #2 though.
In general, I would agree with that summary.

Looking at the dynamic though, there's no reason why Russia can't push forward and become #1 if they wanted to. Firstofall, they are not far off. The foundation is there, and they really want to and doing a lot to get there.

Truth is, there isn't another other than Russia country with BOTH, the resources AND love for hockey to match, for a while anyway. It could change if US goes nuts over hockey though


Last edited by Fulcrum: 12-06-2012 at 12:47 PM.
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12-06-2012, 12:38 PM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
That is fine.. but dont bash fans who dont want players of their nation playing in NHL\CHL\AHL and getting injured for WHC\ Olympics..
...I dont...?

The players are free to leave North American hockey if they value playing in the WHC more. I think it speaks volumes that the players are fighting for the Olympics (aka best on best) but dont give 2 ***** about the WHC.

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12-06-2012, 01:09 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Slimmy View Post
In soccer, inbetween major tourneys like the WC and the EC, for us here in Europe (in North and South America
there's Copa America), there are qualifications being played. In other words, there are games played yearly,
eather qualification games or the actual tournament games.
I do agree, however, that there is much healthier competition between leagues in soccer, where as the NHL can pretty
much do as it want's. Hoping that will change with the KHL and possibly another european league, but that is another matter.

NHL would give the finger to the Olympic games as well if it weren't for popular demand domestically.
Now, I don't blame the NHL for wanting to make money, that's why the league exists, but putting the blame solely on the IIHF
dismissing it as anti-north american or pro-european is making it a little bit too easy.
NA fans of international tournaments seem to be eating out of the hand of the NHL board of directors.
The NHL is the only winner in making the relationship between hockey countries infected. They have no incentive
what so ever to broker some kind of deal with an international governing body and let players under contract participate.
If canadiens and americans put pressure on the NHL to come to terms with the IIHF, we could see some progress.
But with he current animosity between NA and Europe over the tournament, nothing will change.

So, again, I cant' blame the NHL for wanting to make money and looking to what is in the best interest for the league
as a product, but I can blame them for the ongoing conflict with the IIHF.
Hockey is a strange situation where the most powerful body in the sport is a league (NHL) and not the governing body (IIHF).

What would you think of rebranding the World Championships as the European Championships, being primarily geared towards the top Euro players who play in the Euro leagues? This would basically take Canada, the US and the NHL out of the equation yet still leave the annual tournament that fans in Europe like yourself want. I think that would do a lot to get everyone past the NHL/NA vs IIHF/Europe disagreement that has dragged on for all these years.

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12-06-2012, 01:47 PM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Hockey is a strange situation where the most powerful body in the sport is a league (NHL) and not the governing body (IIHF).

What would you think of rebranding the World Championships as the European Championships, being primarily geared towards the top Euro players who play in the Euro leagues? This would basically take Canada, the US and the NHL out of the equation yet still leave the annual tournament that fans in Europe like yourself want. I think that would do a lot to get everyone past the NHL/NA vs IIHF/Europe disagreement that has dragged on for all these years.
Pretty sure that Hockey Canada would be against that even more so than IIHF. Absurd point anyway, will never happen.

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Old
12-06-2012, 01:55 PM
  #335
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Canada #1
USA #2

both countries are far superior in numbers of players, Canada still has the most highend skilled players with the US not having many top 10 players, but easily outproducing Russia from 20-50 range...

/end thread

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12-06-2012, 01:58 PM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Hockey is a strange situation where the most powerful body in the sport is a league (NHL) and not the governing body (IIHF).

What would you think of rebranding the World Championships as the European Championships, being primarily geared towards the top Euro players who play in the Euro leagues? This would basically take Canada, the US and the NHL out of the equation yet still leave the annual tournament that fans in Europe like yourself want. I think that would do a lot to get everyone past the NHL/NA vs IIHF/Europe disagreement that has dragged on for all these years.
I don't believe rebranding the WHC as EHC would be in the best interest of the IIHF or hockey as a whole. The IIHF needs MORE influence in NA not less. Excluding the Canadian and American Hockey Federations from participating would be devastating for the tournament and would leave the before mentioned hockey federations with nothing but the Olympics in which to garner any international success.
Besides, there is already a euro-centric tournament in Euro Hockey tour.

There is also a risk of alianating the european fans if the IIHF were to move the tournament to a timeslot more favourable to the NHL and there is still no certainty that NHL players would be allowed to participate or that interest in NA would peak. That could leave the tournament with no viewers at all, neather north american or european. It could also mean damaging the prestige and credibility it has with, admitedly, mostly european fans even if they were to change back to the original format of the tournament.

In eather case, there needs to be a WHC for any and all hockey federations in which to participate. Hockey needs to grow and the responsibility falls on the IIHF and the major hockey countries to help make the sport grow.

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12-06-2012, 02:01 PM
  #337
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YES, Russia has taken the no. 1 spot overall.

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12-06-2012, 02:03 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
In general, I would agree with that summary.

Looking at the dynamic though, there's no reason why Russia can't push forward and become #1 if they wanted to. Firstofall, they are not far off. The foundation is there, and they really want to and doing a lot to get there.

Truth is, there isn't another other than Russia country with BOTH, the resources AND love for hockey to match, for a while anyway. It could change if US goes nuts over hockey though
I agree that Russia is slightly behind Canada at this stage, but in my opinion, the Russians are gaining ground steadily and constantly. The major factor in Russian growth was regaining financial stability and finally a degree of prosperity, because hockey is an expensive sport. Secondly, Russia has begun to dramatically upgrade the quality of its professional leagues, and more importantly, even more dramatically expand and upgrade the quality of organized youth hockey. With a population of 140 million people, being able to recruit a much greater percentage of the population is critical to vying for No. 1 in the World.

Canada is fully developed in every aspect of hockey, but it has been for the last 40 or 50 years. Canada won't get worse, but it is unlikely that it will get noticeably better, barring some major breakthrough in coaching or some other unlikely event of that order. Russia isn't even close to being fully developed, so it has a lot greater capacity to make marked strides of advancement (provided the will to make it happen is there, of course). I could envision scenarios where Russia catches up to and surpasses Canada in the not too distant future.

As always, the United States seems to have a lot of promise and potential that will likely continue to go unfulfilled. Serious hockey capable of producing international-class talent is limited to a few Northern states, but even there, hockey is far less popular than in Canada, and far down the list of sports in the pecking order for recruiting the best athletic talent. In the rest of the country, there are a few enclaves like Dallas where there has been a proliferation of rink building. But the level of competition there is extremely low, meaning any prospect would have to go to Minnesota or Canada to build there game. And if you are in Dallas and a young athlete, as in all other parts of the country, your first interest is football, second baseball, third basketball, fourth soccer, and maybe somewhere further down the line, hockey. Also, hockey in those areas is limited exclusively to the upper-income population, because there is no outdoor ice to learn to skate on, and you have to buy scarce indoor ice time.

In Europe, the best other prospect is Sweden. It has a small population which corresponds to the size of the talent pool, but on a per capita basis, Sweden is excelling over every other country in the World in building quality hockey programs. It is amazing what Sweden has accomplished. I think it would be hard to continue to grow in leaps and bounds the way the Swedes have in the last 25 years.

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12-06-2012, 02:07 PM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
In general, I would agree with that summary.

Looking at the dynamic though, there's no reason why Russia can't push forward and become #1 if they wanted to. Firstofall, they are not far off. The foundation is there, and they really want to and doing a lot to get there.

Truth is, there isn't another other than Russia country with BOTH, the resources AND love for hockey to match, for a while anyway. It could change if US goes nuts over hockey though
Russia is quite a bit behind the US IMO, and is more on par with Sweden.

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12-06-2012, 02:11 PM
  #340
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I feel since the Olympics now allow NHL players, the WHC should run counter rotation to the Games. 2010 Olympics, 2012 WHC, 2014 Olympics. The WHC also needs to be held after the playoffs. I can see injury worries for many players so close to training camp.

I think a yearly WHC waters it down and takes away from the hype for both fans and players.

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12-06-2012, 02:11 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by SilverSeven View Post
Russia is quite a bit behind the US IMO, and is more on par with Sweden.
The US isn't even close to Russia in talent. Try again.

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12-06-2012, 02:17 PM
  #342
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Forwards - Canada/Russia >> USA > Sweden > Finland
Defense - Canada >> USA > Sweden > Finland >> Russia
Goaltending - Finland/Sweden >> USA/Canada >>> Russia

My Ranking is:

1. Canada
2. USA
3/4. Sweden/Russia
5. Finland

I know this goes against what i said earlier, but the more I think about it, outside of high flying Russian forwards (who I don't feel are better than Canadian forwards overall) they don't have much going for them. They have found a way to win games, but not nearly as much as Canada. If they find a way to strengthen the back end and get some depth in their system they will challenge for #1

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12-06-2012, 02:18 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Slimmy View Post
The US isn't even close to Russia in talent. Try again.
Your best player doesn't make your team. Russia might have a few top end guys who surpass the USA, but overall US has them in entire team and system depth.

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12-06-2012, 02:22 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Your best player doesn't make your team. Russia might have a few top end guys who surpass the USA, but overall US has them in entire team and system depth.
I wasn't talking about the juniors, but overall talent.

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12-06-2012, 02:24 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Your best player doesn't make your team. Russia might have a few top end guys who surpass the USA, but overall US has them in entire team and system depth.
Do you ever even read the stuff you write? What "system depth" does the United States have? How do you compare the USHL to the CHL, in both number of teams and quality of teams? Is it the US College program that impresses, where ice time is much more limited than in junior hockey for academic reasons, and where a large chunk of the players are actually Canadians? That is ridiculous!

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12-06-2012, 02:30 PM
  #346
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Russia is #3 behind Canada and USA. Grow some defenseman and goalies and they might have a chance.

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12-06-2012, 02:33 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Pretty sure that Hockey Canada would be against that even more so than IIHF. Absurd point anyway, will never happen.
I agree, it will probably never happen. However I did hear Bob Nicholson say in an interview last year that he thought holding a WC every year was too often and also that he would like the World Cup brought back.

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12-06-2012, 02:43 PM
  #348
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Do you ever even read the stuff you write? What "system depth" does the United States have? How do you compare the USHL to the CHL, in both number of teams and quality of teams? Is it the US College program that impresses, where ice time is much more limited than in junior hockey for academic reasons, and where a large chunk of the players are actually Canadians? That is ridiculous!
I am speaking of players from the respective countries. I was also saying USA > Russia in system depth, not USA vs CAN

You really are all over the place.

The USA is better than Russia in general when it comes to hockey. You don't have to like it, but it is a fact. High flying forwards =/= hockey, but. Russians make a great part of a team, but overall they do not make the best team.

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12-06-2012, 02:44 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by Slimmy View Post
I don't believe rebranding the WHC as EHC would be in the best interest of the IIHF or hockey as a whole. The IIHF needs MORE influence in NA not less. Excluding the Canadian and American Hockey Federations from participating would be devastating for the tournament and would leave the before mentioned hockey federations with nothing but the Olympics in which to garner any international success.
Besides, there is already a euro-centric tournament in Euro Hockey tour.

There is also a risk of alianating the european fans if the IIHF were to move the tournament to a timeslot more favourable to the NHL and there is still no certainty that NHL players would be allowed to participate or that interest in NA would peak. That could leave the tournament with no viewers at all, neather north american or european. It could also mean damaging the prestige and credibility it has with, admitedly, mostly european fans even if they were to change back to the original format of the tournament.

In eather case, there needs to be a WHC for any and all hockey federations in which to participate. Hockey needs to grow and the responsibility falls on the IIHF and the major hockey countries to help make the sport grow.
My experience is that only a small minority have the vision to make changes for the better and almost everyone else clings to the status quo. International hockey as a whole could be so much better than it is now and if it were up to me I would have a system similar to Rugby / Cricket / Soccer. Although I would get rid of or change the World Championships I would add things too, such as replacing league all-star games with int'l friendlies / qualification games.

Sorry to rant, just that it could be so much better but changing things is next to impossible.

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12-06-2012, 02:44 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Slimmy View Post
I wasn't talking about the juniors, but overall talent.
Me too.

USA > Russia, overall.

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