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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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12-06-2012, 03:19 PM
  #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
You know what? Speaking of the best. Vast majority attended last year's WC, except Canada and US Players! Not Hockey Canada, who did invite them. It was the players who chose not to go. There were no VALID reasons for Canada not having their best. Those 2 nations showed up with their "AMAZING" depth and got their ***** kicked. Canada for it's 3rd year in a row!

In the end, I'm not delusional - Canada is #1 hockey nation, Overall! But not far and away so much from Russia. But to say that USA has all the sudden sprung out of nowhere in the 90's and overtaken the rich Soviet/Russian hockey traditions is completely absurd. They are top 4-5 hockey nation for sure, and also not far off but to say they are right behind Canada somehow is delusional for sure!
Tradition means nothing for the current state of each nations hockey. It's fun to talk about, but right now we have recent history and current, those are really the only 2 factors that matter.

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12-06-2012, 03:20 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Yes the WC and pre 98 OG are minor tournaments.
I disagree, especially post 2005 WC.

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12-06-2012, 03:21 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Tradition means nothing for the current state of each nations hockey. It's fun to talk about, but right now we have recent history and current, those are really the only 2 factors that matter.
So we can expect Jamaica to jump in into top 5 in the next 5 years or so you think? If traditions mean nothing..

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12-06-2012, 03:22 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
You know what? Speaking of the best. Vast majority attended last year's WC, except Canada and US Players! Not Hockey Canada, who did invite them. It was the players who chose not to go. There were no VALID reasons for Canada not having their best. Those 2 nations showed up with their "AMAZING" depth and got their ***** kicked. Canada for it's 3rd year in a row!

In the end, I'm not delusional - Canada is #1 hockey nation, Overall! But not far and away so much from Russia. But to say that USA has all the sudden sprung out of nowhere in the 90's and overtaken the rich Soviet/Russian hockey traditions is completely absurd. They are top 4-5 hockey nation for sure, and also not far off but to say they are right behind Canada somehow is delusional for sure!
Only Russia came close to icing their best line up at the WC last year. The US has more kids playing hockey than Russia, more arenas, more NHLers and when its best players are there have done much better than Russia at the mens level in the last 20+ years.

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12-06-2012, 03:23 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
If you haven't been to the Spengler tournament in Davos, then I'd suggest you put that on top of your hockey bucket list. But I advise any Canadians or Americans venturing to the World Championships for the first time, seek out the Latvians. Get in with the Latvian crowd.
They will seek you out. As an American fan, a naive one at that, I was a very visible minority. The Danes and Latvians pretty much never let me have a moment of peace and I thank them for that.

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12-06-2012, 03:23 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I disagree, especially post 2005 WC.
The WC is important to Russia because they have won so little at the best on best level, most of the rest of us don't care

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12-06-2012, 03:31 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Only Russia came close to icing their best line up at the WC last year. The US has more kids playing hockey than Russia, more arenas, more NHLers and when its best players are there have done much better than Russia at the mens level in the last 20+ years.

Sweden, Slovakia and even Czech rep. had excellent line-ups. I'm pretty sure Finland had a good lineup as well. Regardless, where was that amazing depth of NA hockey that everyone is talking about?? For how many years now!?

You have a poor choice of argumetns, there are more kids playing amatuer hockey in NA (house leagues, Rep A, AA- who will never come even close to becoming professionals). So throw those numbers out, because nearly all Russian kids are in professional Hockey schools taught by masters, not some part-time factory worker, volunteer coach from local communities.

The high level development leagues in Canada are right on par with Russian schools, and I doubt they significantly outnumber Russian schools. Certainly the results are starting to even out at junior tournaments.

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12-06-2012, 03:33 PM
  #383
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In a best of seven series, I take Canada over anyone every single time. Plus Canada could ice a second team capable of winning a tournament, I don't think anyone else would even come close.

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12-06-2012, 03:34 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
The WC is important to Russia because they have won so little at the best on best level, most of the rest of us don't care
The WC is so unimportant to NA, unlike the rest of hockey playing world, partly because they can't succeed lately, partly because NHL is shielding its public through mass media and by not entering into hosting bids in order not to lose the little NHL Playoff viewers it has left, and even more importantly because their OWN available players are turning down the opportunity to play for their country. Where is the pride? Is it really only occasional?

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12-06-2012, 03:34 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
In a best of seven series, I take Canada over anyone every single time. Plus Canada could ice a second team capable of winning a tournament, I don't think anyone else would even come close.
Their second team consistently loses in the Worlds, so I 've never really bought that line.

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12-06-2012, 03:35 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
In a best of seven series, I take Canada over anyone every single time. Plus Canada could ice a second team capable of winning a tournament, I don't think anyone else would even come close.
Just not in the last 5 years, apparently.

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12-06-2012, 03:38 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
So we can expect Jamaica to jump in into top 5 in the next 5 years or so you think? If traditions mean nothing..
Yes,, that is exactly what I said.

I guess since sensible conversation is clearly out the window, I'm done.

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12-06-2012, 03:43 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
Their second team consistently loses in the Worlds, so I 've never really bought that line.
Thats our 4th or 5th team. Not our 2nd by any stretch of the word.

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12-06-2012, 03:46 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
Their second team consistently loses in the Worlds, so I 've never really bought that line.
Actually that team last year was one of the youngest, along with the Americans in the tournament and looked destined for the semi final until Getzlaf had a brain cramp and took an unfortunate penalty....and Slovakia came through... but I wouldn't say that was Canada's B-team... it was too young to be the B team..but it did look impressive against the Finns.

And it's only post Vancouver 2010 that Canada has failed at the World Championships. Look at the record 2002-9. Very impressive record...unmatched by any other... no doubt Hockey Canada has to get its **** together though.

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12-06-2012, 03:49 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Thats our 4th or 5th team. Not our 2nd by any stretch of the word.
Yea.. ok, I wasn't introduced to hockey yesterday. I know who was on the roster- a good chunk of Olympic hopefuls is your 4th or 5th team? please

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12-06-2012, 03:54 PM
  #391
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Canada showed its dominance in hockey 2005-2010~ish. But by 2009 some pieces started to crumble. While it's still superior and has an unmatched hockey culture and traditions- Russia, Sweden and USA are right there a half a step behind.

That's just my view of it

'll agree with Writer, the organization that is Hockey Canada is the weakest link about Canadian hockey at the moment. They need to get some national loyalty back from it's players, everyone knows that and the president voiced it many times.

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12-06-2012, 03:55 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Yea.. ok, I wasn't introduced to hockey yesterday. I know who was on the roster- a good chunk of Olympic hopefuls is your 4th or 5th team? please
Ya, the roster included 3 National team players from Vancouver and 4 hopefuls under the age of 22 hoping to play in Sochi. Canada's C team is a fair assessment of it and like I wrote, it looked as though they were through to the semis until Getzlaf got stupid. **** happens that's hockey.

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12-06-2012, 03:57 PM
  #393
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To add to that, if Canada fails in Sochi, it'll add to years of international upsets. And that is a very realistic result for them and any other country.

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12-06-2012, 04:00 PM
  #394
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I have only ever thought that "maybe" 2008 at the World Championships was the only time we could say this is our "B" team. This was because the tournament was in Canada and there was a young wave of talent hoping to get noticed for the Olympics as well. Other than that we have never fielded our "B" team at the Worlds. Just isn't a priority for the top guys. Most of them are still in the playoffs anyway, and other than that you aren't going to see proven guys there since they want to make room for the youngsters. Ken Hitchcock should more or less get the share of the blame for that debacle in 2008. We are up 4-2 in the third period on our home turf with some nice young offensive talent and we let up and sit back while the Russians tie the game and win in overtime. That's Hitchcock hockey for you.

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12-06-2012, 04:00 PM
  #395
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Ya, the roster included 3 National team players from Vancouver and 4 hopefuls under the age of 22 hoping to play in Sochi. Canada's C team is a fair assessment of it and like I wrote, it looked as though they were through to the semis until Getzlaf got stupid. **** happens that's hockey.
That team had way more than just 4 hopefuls, as Hockey Canada fully realized that any of those guys have the potential to catch fire in 2014 and they would be the kind of call ups that make sense at the time and someone you can't forego.

It's the same for Russia. There are 20-30 players who are hopefuls and the idea is to get the best of them AT THE TIME- the hot pieces during Olympics. Only the top 6 are really well defined.

Will Ketov or Shepachyov make the Olympic team? Probably not. They were still on the team and won. Will Tereschenko- who knows? But they are all within the spectrum of NT. Same for Canada.

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12-06-2012, 04:02 PM
  #396
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I have only ever thought that "maybe" 2008 at the World Championships was the only time we could say this is our "B" team. This was because the tournament was in Canada and there was a young wave of talent hoping to get noticed for the Olympics as well. Other than that we have never fielded our "B" team at the Worlds. Just isn't a priority for the top guys. Most of them are still in the playoffs anyway, and other than that you aren't going to see proven guys there since they want to make room for the youngsters. Ken Hitchcock should more or less get the share of the blame for that debacle in 2008. We are up 4-2 in the third period on our home turf with some nice young offensive talent and we let up and sit back while the Russians tie the game and win in overtime. That's Hitchcock hockey for you.
Hey on that note, we can blame the whole 2010 Russian Olympic team on the Russian coach (and that is exactly what happened).

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12-06-2012, 04:09 PM
  #397
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Hey on that note, we can blame the whole 2010 Russian Olympic team on the Russian coach (and that is exactly what happened).
If I were Hitchcock I would have never let that team take the pedal off the metal, that's all. The players were still on the ice, I am not making excuses. I don't think in 2010 you can be too happy about the players either. Nabokov played a horrendous game, Ovechkin, Malkin were invisible. Kovalchuk was at least shooting the puck. That game was over by the first period and there is a lot of blame to go around there, but it isn't as if they didn't lose to a stellar team either.

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12-06-2012, 04:10 PM
  #398
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Hey on that note, we can blame the whole 2010 Russian Olympic team on the Russian coach (and that is exactly what happened).
or you could blame it on Russia having no D or Goalies.

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12-06-2012, 04:14 PM
  #399
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Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
or you could blame it on Russia having no D or Goalies.
Or you could blame the 2008 team on being worse than the Russian team, with the worse D and Goalies that were there for 2010 Olympics.

But I think Hitchkock did screw it up.

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12-06-2012, 04:17 PM
  #400
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
If I were Hitchcock I would have never let that team take the pedal off the metal, that's all. The players were still on the ice, I am not making excuses. I don't think in 2010 you can be too happy about the players either. Nabokov played a horrendous game, Ovechkin, Malkin were invisible. Kovalchuk was at least shooting the puck. That game was over by the first period and there is a lot of blame to go around there, but it isn't as if they didn't lose to a stellar team either.
I'll give full credit to Team Canada and especially the coaching staff. They all did a much better job than Russians in every aspect.

And that was really sad for me to see, that the players weren't ready and the tactics were ****. And that in the end it turned out to be mainly the coaching that made the difference for my team. On the other hand, it led to the coaching change which so far has worked out great.

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