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World Junior Championship Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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Old
12-06-2012, 05:26 PM
  #401
Moore Money
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Or you could blame the 2008 team on being worse than the Russian team, with the worse D and Goalies that were there for 2010 Olympics.

But I think Hitchkock did screw it up.
lol whatever you say. good luck in Sochi with no defense. will be lucky to get a medal.

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12-06-2012, 05:34 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I'll give full credit to Team Canada and especially the coaching staff. They all did a much better job than Russians in every aspect.

And that was really sad for me to see, that the players weren't ready and the tactics were ****. And that in the end it turned out to be mainly the coaching that made the difference for my team. On the other hand, it led to the coaching change which so far has worked out great.
Honestly, coaching doesn't make you lose 7-3.

Out-skilled, out-worked, out-played... tatics or not they got their ***** handed to them.

I'm not sure what you mean by the players weren't ready... its the Olympics, they'd been together as much or longer than any other team in the tournament.

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12-06-2012, 05:36 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
lol whatever you say. good luck in Sochi with no defense. will be lucky to get a medal.
Lol, its funny you say that actually. This isn't 2010 and the team has taken a 180. There is now criticism that this team is TOO defensive.

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12-06-2012, 05:56 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Lol, its funny you say that actually. This isn't 2010 and the team has taken a 180. There is now criticism that this team is TOO defensive.
How can a team with Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Semin, Malkin be too defensive?

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12-06-2012, 06:03 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Sweden, Slovakia and even Czech rep. had excellent line-ups. I'm pretty sure Finland had a good lineup as well. Regardless, where was that amazing depth of NA hockey that everyone is talking about?? For how many years now!?

You have a poor choice of argumetns, there are more kids playing amatuer hockey in NA (house leagues, Rep A, AA- who will never come even close to becoming professionals). So throw those numbers out, because nearly all Russian kids are in professional Hockey schools taught by masters, not some part-time factory worker, volunteer coach from local communities.

The high level development leagues in Canada are right on par with Russian schools, and I doubt they significantly outnumber Russian schools. Certainly the results are starting to even out at junior tournaments.
This tells me you don't know much about international hockey outside of the team you support.

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12-06-2012, 06:05 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
The WC is so unimportant to NA, unlike the rest of hockey playing world, partly because they can't succeed lately, partly because NHL is shielding its public through mass media and by not entering into hosting bids in order not to lose the little NHL Playoff viewers it has left, and even more importantly because their OWN available players are turning down the opportunity to play for their country. Where is the pride? Is it really only occasional?
For someone who lives in Toronto you know little about Canadians. BTW you do realize that the NHL needs its arenas reserved for a little thing called the playoffs right?

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12-06-2012, 06:41 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
You know what? Speaking of the best. Vast majority attended last year's WC, except Canada and US Players! Not Hockey Canada, who did invite them. It was the players who chose not to go. There were no VALID reasons for Canada not having their best. Those 2 nations showed up with their "AMAZING" depth and got their ***** kicked. Canada for it's 3rd year in a row!

In the end, I'm not delusional - Canada is #1 hockey nation, Overall! But not far and away so much from Russia. But to say that USA has all the sudden sprung out of nowhere in the 90's and overtaken the rich Soviet/Russian hockey traditions is completely absurd. They are top 4-5 hockey nation for sure, and also not far off but to say they are right behind Canada somehow is delusional for sure!
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Why is USA being spoken of as the 2nd or 3rd best hockey nation? They are 5th, at best. Canada Russia Sweden and Finland would crush them in a best of anything higher than 1 serie. The olympics is the best international tournament, sure, but everyone could see several good nations underperform, and Miller playing like a beast.

Since so many have brought up world cup, doesn't USA usually have to qualify to even continue playing in the top level version of the world cup?
So if I understand correctly, you're saying that the USA cannot be considered the 2nd/3rd best hockey country simply because their best players decline invitations to the WHC year after year? Also,
the USA defeated Finland 6-1 in the last Olympics. This wasn't just a defeat, it was an embarrassment. IMO it's possible for the USA to beat Finland, or even Russia, in a best of 7.

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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Nah it's fine, you keep on trucking I don't want to make you sad, I'm sure USA is great at comming second in tournaments with 8 place finishes inbetween, let me know when they actually do something though. They are very lucky the best on best tournaments are few and far between, so that one bad game can screw you over totally, or a hot goalie can take you to the finals. Everyone with half a brain knows USA would get destroyed in a best of 7 against Sweden or Russia.

Switzerland "almost" beat Canada due to Hiller last Olympics, would they be the best in the would if they did?
Switzerland almost defeated Canada in a preliminary round game. If they had followed it up by defeating the USA in their quarterfinal (which they were close to doing), defeating Finland in the semifinal, and then defeating Canada in a rematch in the finals, then I would consider them worthy of being called the best team in the world.

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Originally Posted by Slimmy View Post
Agree. Canada cup/world cup is/was an obscure invitational tournament created by and for Canadians.
Ofcourse, becaus of their emense arroganse, there's some level of satisfaction in defeating the Canadians at their own terms; their home ice, their rules.
But that's where it ends. Saying it's on par with the Olympics is just proof of their bloated egos.
Hardly anyone outside of Canada even cares or knows what it is.
Interesting, hardly anyone in North America cares about the WHC. It's a tournament established by the IIHF in 1910 originally as a championship for European nations, until 1930 when they decided to invite Canada and rename it the World Championship.

Then until 1977, they had a biased definition of "professional" that prohibited professionals from representing Canada or the USA at the WCs (except for retired pros like Carl Brewer) while allowing the USSR and Czechoslovakia to be represented by players who were professional in all but name. (The IOC had the same problem, but that's another story). It was no coincidence that when the Canada Cup was created in the late 1970s, the IIHF finally allowed North American pros in the WHC.

Since then, the IIHF, to its credit, has made many strides to welcome Canada back into the world of international hockey. But a lingering sense of alienation still remains. Many Canadians still see the IIHF not as an international governing body, but as a European-based organization which has no authority over North American hockey. I'm not saying I like it, but that's the truth.

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Originally Posted by Slimmy View Post
NHL would give the finger to the Olympic games as well if it weren't for popular demand domestically.
Now, I don't blame the NHL for wanting to make money, that's why the league exists, but putting the blame solely on the IIHF
dismissing it as anti-north american or pro-european is making it a little bit too easy.
NA fans of international tournaments seem to be eating out of the hand of the NHL board of directors.
The NHL is the only winner in making the relationship between hockey countries infected. They have no incentive
what so ever to broker some kind of deal with an international governing body and let players under contract participate.
If canadiens and americans put pressure on the NHL to come to terms with the IIHF, we could see some progress.
But with he current animosity between NA and Europe over the tournament, nothing will change.

So, again, I cant' blame the NHL for wanting to make money and looking to what is in the best interest for the league
as a product, but I can blame them for the ongoing conflict with the IIHF.
Yes, I agree the NHL is partially to blame (and I don't exactly like the NHL either, nor do most North American hockey fans, given the situation it's in right now). I was just making sure the European posters here recognized that for a long time in the past, Canada and the United States were not treated equally with the USSR and Czechoslovakia by the IIHF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
I don't get why so many people think the Canada Cups were always 'best vs. best' and all competing countries held the tournament with same high regard and importance as Canada does/did. That clearly doesn't seem to be the case.

1976 Canada CUp



1991 Canada Cup



I believe some of the same could have been said of the Czech team as well.

For the record I certainly don't think the Canada Cups should be dismissed I just think this is stuff we should keep in mind before we go around down playing other's accomplishments while bragging about Canada's.
Absolutely. But then no tournament before 1998 would count as "best vs. best" (and even 1998 and 2002 would be iffy since the NHL only had a partial break for those), so the Canada Cup is the best thing we've got. "Best vs. best" to me just means any tournament where no players are otherwise committed to playing for a club team at the same time. This includes the 1976 Canada Cup (KPM line missing) and the 2005 WHC (Lightning players missing). The Czech triumph in 2005 is a legitimate best-on-best win in my books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oyabun View Post
Also lets drop the act and not include the WJC as a "best on best" tournament. The other year Pääjärvi was stopped from participating. This year, Ottawa is trying to stop Zibanejad from participating while it seems no eligible AHL Canadian player will be held from the Canadian WJC squad.

Should Ottawa get their will through, the WHC count a whole hell of a lot higher. In WHC it's up to the individual player if they wanna participate or not. Certain clubs can't cripple certain national teams while sending off their own countrymen. I would be surprised if Ottawa sticks to their rotten guns. Is hockey such a minor sport that anything goes ?
WJC isn't a best-on-best tournament. Don't confuse "popular in Canada" with "best on best tournament".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Any decline is likely a result of the "Russian factor," but the Swedish, Finnish, Czech and Slovakian programs have grown so much in quality that I beiieve their numbers will increase in the NHL. But I agree that the NHL is no longer the sole barometer of quality.
Sweden and Finland are doing well, but I'm a little skeptical of Slovakia's long-term ability to produce elite players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
lol whatever you say. good luck in Sochi with no defense. will be lucky to get a medal.
It's the Olympics, one game, and Russia has home ice advantage. I wouldn't bet against Russia getting a medal at 1:1 odds.


Last edited by Hammer Time: 12-06-2012 at 06:48 PM.
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Old
12-06-2012, 06:48 PM
  #408
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ATTENTION: MR. KANADENSISK, KESSLY SNIPES, MR. WRITER, MACMAN, AND ALL OTHER CANADIAN PATRIOTS:

I HAVE A PROPOSAL TO OFFER.

You guys love to troll and flame and talk insultingly about Russia, but I've always been curious as to HOW MUCH you really believe in the Maple Leaf nation? How much do you TRUST players who represent the Maple Leaf nation to show up and deliver? There is a best on best tournament coming up in Ufa in just a few weeks (all the Canadian superstars will be there). Do you believe that the best Canadian junior team in 8 years will win a best on best? Would you be willing to risk your personal pride, in the event of a Russian win, by issuing a post within 12 hours after Russian wins the Gold that specifically says:

"I am a stupid fool because I was blind and dumb enough not to realize that Russia is the superior junior hockey nation."

Russian fans like Fulcrum and myself have already stated that we thought that Canada was the No. 1 hockey nation at this moment, so we haven't been guilty of any false braggadocio. I am sure that I won't get any takers, because I don't believe that any of you are in any way confident that Canada will show up and deliver the goods. Please post your reply in this thread.

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12-06-2012, 07:16 PM
  #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
ATTENTION:
Russian fans like Fulcrum and myself have already stated that we thought that Canada was the No. 1 hockey nation at this moment, so we haven't been guilty of any false braggadocio. I am sure that I won't get any takers, because I don't believe that any of you are in any way confident that Canada will show up and deliver the goods. Please post your reply in this thread.

Lol what?

This year may actually be a true best on best... if the NHL lockout drags into the holidays, Canada will for the first time since 05 and 95 truly have the best team they have to offer. In each of these years Canada has absolutely wiped the floor with the competition, and it hasn't even been a contest.

Unlike many other nations, Canada routinely has their best 2-3 jr. age players in the NHL. This is a year where that won't be the case. I'm confident every year that Canada will contend for a Gold Medal, and every year since 1998 they've won a medal.

The Canadian population is not hopeful or praying for their team to win, they are expected to win. As was the case in any other year.

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12-06-2012, 07:18 PM
  #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
ATTENTION: MR. KANADENSISK, KESSLY SNIPES, MR. WRITER, MACMAN, AND ALL OTHER CANADIAN PATRIOTS:

I HAVE A PROPOSAL TO OFFER.

You guys love to troll and flame and talk insultingly about Russia, but I've always been curious as to HOW MUCH you really believe in the Maple Leaf nation? How much do you TRUST players who represent the Maple Leaf nation to show up and deliver? There is a best on best tournament coming up in Ufa in just a few weeks (all the Canadian superstars will be there). Do you believe that the best Canadian junior team in 8 years will win a best on best? Would you be willing to risk your personal pride, in the event of a Russian win, by issuing a post within 12 hours after Russian wins the Gold that specifically says:

"I am a stupid fool because I was blind and dumb enough not to realize that Russia is the superior junior hockey nation."

Russian fans like Fulcrum and myself have already stated that we thought that Canada was the No. 1 hockey nation at this moment, so we haven't been guilty of any false braggadocio. I am sure that I won't get any takers, because I don't believe that any of you are in any way confident that Canada will show up and deliver the goods. Please post your reply in this thread.
Wait, so someone starts a thread stating Russia might be #1, we disagree, providing reasons why, without any sort of insult or demeaning manor and we are trolling? Was the only option to state that yes Russia is #1?

Here's the thing, major tournament after major tournament when everyone sends their best, the team to beat is always Canada. There is a reason for that. Like it or not, they are seen as the best and have for a while now. Until another country shows consistent dominance (not just one win in 6-10 years) then we can talk.

I am sorry you don't like it, and I do mean no disrespect, but Russia is not a better hockey country then Canada... not yet.

And no I won't post that. I will congratulate the Russia Jr team for being the best this year, because thats what the winner is. It still does not make them the best hockey country, that takes consistent dominance. Beyond that, you have stated that Canada is the best hockey country at the moment, yet when we say it, it is false bravado? Mind boggling!

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12-06-2012, 07:25 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
Lol what?

This year may actually be a true best on best... if the NHL lockout drags into the holidays, Canada will for the first time since 05 and 95 truly have the best team they have to offer. In each of these years Canada has absolutely wiped the floor with the competition, and it hasn't even been a contest.

Unlike many other nations, Canada routinely has their best 2-3 jr. age players in the NHL. This is a year where that won't be the case. I'm confident every year that Canada will contend for a Gold Medal, and every year since 1998 they've won a medal.

The Canadian population is not hopeful or praying for their team to win, they are expected to win. As was the case in any other year.
Obviously, there is no chance that Russia could win, even in Ufa. So are you willing to stand up for Canada and promise to repeat the self-deprecating message that I proposed? You didn't say whether you'd repeat the message.

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12-06-2012, 07:26 PM
  #412
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Sorry its Canada every single time. Argue all you want, in the end, its Canada.

No list of excuses by the euros will suffice.

There is a reason why Canada won the gold. Best players in the world vs best players in the world..result Canada won

thank you

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12-06-2012, 07:30 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Wait, so someone starts a thread stating Russia might be #1, we disagree, providing reasons why, without any sort of insult or demeaning manor and we are trolling? Was the only option to state that yes Russia is #1?

Here's the thing, major tournament after major tournament when everyone sends their best, the team to beat is always Canada. There is a reason for that. Like it or not, they are seen as the best and have for a while now. Until another country shows consistent dominance (not just one win in 6-10 years) then we can talk.

I am sorry you don't like it, and I do mean no disrespect, but Russia is not a better hockey country then Canada... not yet.

And no I won't post that. I will congratulate the Russia Jr team for being the best this year, because thats what the winner is. It still does not make them the best hockey country, that takes consistent dominance. Beyond that, you have stated that Canada is the best hockey country at the moment, yet when we say it, it is false bravado? Mind boggling!
You would only give credit for Russia being the best junior hockey nation this year, even though you are no doubt on the bandwagon for a 3-year residual for the men winning in Vancouver? And I think you are manufacturing the notion that Russian fans are claiming that we are No. 1. I only found one post to that effect, but the guy was clearly joking.

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12-06-2012, 07:41 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Polo View Post
Sorry its Canada every single time. Argue all you want, in the end, its Canada.

No list of excuses by the euros will suffice.

There is a reason why Canada won the gold. Best players in the world vs best players in the world..result Canada won

thank you
So where would have ranked Canada after the Turin Olympics, then?

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12-06-2012, 07:41 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
You would only give credit for Russia being the best junior hockey nation this year, even though you are no doubt on the bandwagon for a 3-year residual for the men winning in Vancouver? And I think you are manufacturing the notion that Russian fans are claiming that we are No. 1. I only found one post to that effect, but the guy was clearly joking.
Here is the 1st post in the thread, which is by a Russian.. FROM MOSCOW!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViD View Post
Considering both junior and senior level.

With the recent success at the junior hockey (winning couple super series, winning gold and silver at WJHC) plus being constantly successful at senior tourneys for the last 5 years(mostly WHC, Olympics was failed), can we say that at this point Russia is the #1 nation in hockey?

No troll thread, just an opinion.

Beyond that. I am not on any bandwagon, Hockey Canada has proven time and time again, more than any nation in recent history that they are in fact, the best. Nothing anyone has stated has proven otherwise. In fact, you yourself agree they are the best. Why are they the best because they continue to win on the biggest stages. Yes they have not won every single time, but that is unrealistic, even the best lose in a single game championship format. But over a large sample, there is no one that even comes close to them. A single win or lose at the junior or even senior level, does not make someone the best or worst.

I am still trying to figure out how you can agree with me that Canada is currently the best hockey nation, yet call me a troll and band-wagoner for it?

So I will not self deprecate if Canada doesn't win, but I will gve full points to the team that does and say Canada didn't have what it takes to win that game, becuase the outcome has proven that.


Last edited by slocal: 12-07-2012 at 10:25 AM. Reason: don't flame
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12-06-2012, 07:44 PM
  #416
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The reason I rank the US ahead of Russia is because of defense and goaltending.

Question. If the US had beaten Canada for Gold in Vancouver would you then rank them ahead of Russia?

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12-06-2012, 07:48 PM
  #417
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I think it depends on what your concept of "hockey" is because it can be a very different animal in North America than it is in, say, Moscow.

Personally my ranking of the nations is:
1. Canada
2. Russia
3. Sweden
4. Finland
5. United States
6. Czech Republic

But the United States is quickly growing with a youth movement. In a year or so I think USA could be above Finland and challenging Sweden.

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12-06-2012, 07:49 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by Meteor View Post
Absolutely. But then no tournament before 1998 would count as "best vs. best" (and even 1998 and 2002 would be iffy since the NHL only had a partial break for those), so the Canada Cup is the best thing we've got. "Best vs. best" to me just means any tournament where no players are otherwise committed to playing for a club team at the same time. This includes the 1976 Canada Cup (KPM line missing) and the 2005 WHC (Lightning players missing). The Czech triumph in 2005 is a legitimate best-on-best win in my books.
I think we are pretty much on the same page. It's really too bad that up until '98 there wasn't a tournament that was universally accepted as the most important, prestiges, etc. Even then IMHO there are certain aspects of the Olympic tournament that don't exactly make it ideal. Fair points about '98 & '02. A country like Slovakia could have done some serious damage if they didn't get hosed. I think plenty of people will disagree with you about '05 but if some posters in this thread really want to be consistant, for the reason you listed above, they would remove the '98 & '02 tournaments from the 'best vs best' list and add '05 to it.

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12-06-2012, 09:05 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
For someone who lives in Toronto you know little about Canadians. BTW you do realize that the NHL needs its arenas reserved for a little thing called the playoffs right?
Host it in Toronto.

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12-06-2012, 09:13 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Just not in the last 5 years, apparently.
2 silvers in an also ran tourney tells me they were CAPABLE of winning. A team of guys not accustomed to playing big ice Euro hockey show up after an 82+ game grueling season and compete for a medal. The obtuseness is running deep in this thread, even if that's not a word.

To put it more simply, Canada leaves off 10 guys that would easily make every other roster. I am being conservative to avoid any more controversy.

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12-06-2012, 09:21 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
I think we are pretty much on the same page. It's really too bad that up until '98 there wasn't a tournament that was universally accepted as the most important, prestiges, etc. Even then IMHO there are certain aspects of the Olympic tournament that don't exactly make it ideal. Fair points about '98 & '02. A country like Slovakia could have done some serious damage if they didn't get hosed. I think plenty of people will disagree with you about '05 but if some posters in this thread really want to be consistant, for the reason you listed above, they would remove the '98 & '02 tournaments from the 'best vs best' list and add '05 to it.
What I call a best on best is any tournament where the top teams were free to bring their best players and where the vast majority of players who were invited attended. The reason I like these tournaments is because a very high percentage of the top players attend and thus the results are more meaningful as far as which country is the top hockey nation.

I agree that Slovakia got screwed in '98 and '02 and I wish they had the chance to play in the full tournament each time. I think they might have had an outside shot at a medal, but were not good enough to threaten for gold, especially on defence and in goal. As I said what happened is unfortunate but doesn't take anything away from the winners of those tournaments.

The '05 WC was better than most WC but still had way more top players decline than any CCup, WCup or NHL OG, so I don't consider it to be best on best.

In terms of the quality of players who attended the CCups, WCups and '98 and on OG's stand out head and shoulders above the rest.

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12-06-2012, 09:38 PM
  #422
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Host it in Toronto.
never heard that one before, you hockey fans from Vancouver are such a RIOT!

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12-06-2012, 10:50 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
What I call a best on best is any tournament where the top teams were free to bring their best players and where the vast majority of players who were invited attended. The reason I like these tournaments is because a very high percentage of the top players attend and thus the results are more meaningful as far as which country is the top hockey nation.

I agree that Slovakia got screwed in '98 and '02 and I wish they had the chance to play in the full tournament each time. I think they might have had an outside shot at a medal, but were not good enough to threaten for gold, especially on defence and in goal. As I said what happened is unfortunate but doesn't take anything away from the winners of those tournaments.

The '05 WC was better than most WC but still had way more top players decline than any CCup, WCup or NHL OG, so I don't consider it to be best on best.

In terms of the quality of players who attended the CCups, WCups and '98 and on OG's stand out head and shoulders above the rest.
I get what your saying and admittely I am playing a bit of a devil's advocate in my posts (it's more interesting than taking the 'Canada rulz!!!' side ) but to be honest as these type of threads drag on and different arguements are made the criteria to decide what tournaments should and shouldn't count seems to become pretty arbitrary.

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12-06-2012, 11:41 PM
  #424
NewFang
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To argue any country is #1, you've got to talk about best on best tournaments only (i.e. jr's, Olympics. Worlds doesn't count for much)

That said, Canada vs Russia is a coin flip every time, at every level.

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12-06-2012, 11:42 PM
  #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
2 silvers in an also ran tourney tells me they were CAPABLE of winning. A team of guys not accustomed to playing big ice Euro hockey show up after an 82+ game grueling season and compete for a medal. The obtuseness is running deep in this thread, even if that's not a word.

To put it more simply, Canada leaves off 10 guys that would easily make every other roster. I am being conservative to avoid any more controversy.
I got some bad news for you, it's your countries players who chose not to go, not the other way around.
Hockey Canada would love to have them, but they would rather play golf or do nothing than play for their country. True story.

If these players wanted, they could assemble a 90% Olympic team for WC. So really, there is no excuse..

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