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Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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12-08-2012, 12:36 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
It's best juniors on best juniors, therefore it's not best on best.

Also it does not really evaluate the jr development system of each country, but rather the sheer number of players that each country is able to choose from.
If I beat this topic to death with semantics I will surely win over some converts!!!

---

I am a bit surprised that someone who likely thinks they know something about hockey can't concede that being good at something nationally has lots to do with development and not just "sheer number of players" to choose from.

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12-08-2012, 12:48 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
The fact is, and you know it, that the Canadian team in Vancouver probably wasn't as good as the Canadian team that took an a** reaming from Russia and everyone else at Torino. The difference: home ice. In fact, let's be realistic, the game against Russia was the only good game that Canada played in Vancouver (unless you want to count Germany). Canada should have been eliminated by Slovakia (sound familiar, if you paid attention the 2012 WHC), except for a lucky bounce and some real home cooking from the refs. They lost to the US in round robin, and only won in OT against the Americans on a lucky bounce in the Gold Medal game. Sometimes its better to be lucky than good, but lets face it, that was far from a dominant Canadian team. I expect the Canadian team from Torino to show up in Sochi.
I can't believe how bitter you are.

Relax buddy.

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12-08-2012, 12:50 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
You are predicting an outcome for a game in which we do not even know the rosters yet?
Its only 14 months away. I think we can pretty much guess who will fill out the rosters by now.

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12-08-2012, 12:56 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
I am a bit surprised that someone who likely thinks they know something about hockey can't concede that being good at something nationally has lots to do with development and not just "sheer number of players" to choose from.
I'm sure you're bright enough to understand that when you have 10 times the number of players that other countries have, faring well in the tournament says very little about your development system.

Senior tournaments would say a lot more.

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12-08-2012, 12:59 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
It's best juniors on best juniors, therefore it's not best on best.

Also it does not really evaluate the jr development system of each country, but rather the sheer number of players that each country is able to choose from.
It has nothing to do with the sheer number of players that each country has to choose from. Canada and other countries have thousands of registered players in various domestic leagues who are never considered as candidates for the Olympic team or for other international tournaments. Its about who is best able to put pucks in the net once the whistle blows.

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12-08-2012, 01:02 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
I'm sure you're bright enough to understand that when you have 10 times the number of players that other countries have, faring well in the tournament says very little about your development system.

Senior tournaments would say a lot more.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and at the same time ignore the fact players from every hockey in the world come here to play junior hockey for their development.

You must put very little stock in womens sports, after all, it's not the best on best but rather just the best women.

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12-08-2012, 02:05 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and at the same time ignore the fact players from every hockey in the world come here to play junior hockey for their development.
... and are not any better off for it when compared to players who chose to stay at home. I would indeed have to ignore that if I were you.


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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
You must put very little stock in womens sports, after all, it's not the best on best but rather just the best women.
Women's hockey is de facto a different sport, so in this sense it can be considered best on best.

WJC players on the other hand are just a poorer version of senior players. Indeed if a junior-aged player is good enough to join the NHL that rules him out of the WJC.

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12-08-2012, 02:07 PM
  #508
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I laughed.

Until Russia sees the value in defensemen, there's no reason to confuse them being #1 in hockey.

There's a better chance Sweden beats out Russia in my opinion. They show more balance than Russia.

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12-08-2012, 02:39 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
... and are not any better off for it when compared to players who chose to stay at home. I would indeed have to ignore that if I were you.


Did you just say that the CHL doesn't produce better players than other developmental leagues?

I think you may want to start taking up an interest in another sport, because clearly you have no clue when it comes to hockey.

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12-08-2012, 02:47 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Did you just say that the CHL doesn't produce better players than other developmental leagues?
What exactly is there to suggest that a Russian or Swedish player is any better off going to the CHL?

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12-08-2012, 02:57 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
What exactly is there to suggest that a Russian or Swedish player is any better off going to the CHL?
More than half the players in the National Hockey League for the 2005–06 NHL season had played in the CHL. The CHL is generally considered the world's top professional development junior hockey league.

And since the NHL is the top league in the world, that says something about the CHL

In the 2012 NHL Entry draft the picks were as follows:

CHL - 18 (60%)
USHL - 5 (16.6%)
Sweden - 2 (6.6%)
Russia - 1 (3.3%)
Czech - 1 (3.3%)
Finland - 1 (3.3%)
High - QC - 1 (3.3%)

Beyond that 8 of the top 10 picks were CHL players. 80% of the top 10 picks were CHL players, if that doesn't scream top developmental league, I don't know what does.


Last edited by Leo Trollmarov: 12-08-2012 at 03:02 PM.
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12-08-2012, 03:12 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
More than half the players in the National Hockey League for the 2005–06 NHL season had played in the CHL.
More NHLers graduate from the CHL than from other leagues, therefore you're increasing your chances of joining the NHL if you join the CHL? Is that your reasoning?

If it is, that's so stupid that I don't know whether to or .

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12-08-2012, 03:16 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
More NHLers graduate from the CHL than from other leagues, therefore you're increasing your chances of joining the NHL if you join the CHL? Is that your reasoning?

If it is, that's so stupid that I don't know whether to or .
Please provide something countering my point. Dismissal without a counter point isn't helping your case.

You have provided opinion, I have provided facts. Sorry but facts will win every time.

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12-08-2012, 03:35 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Please provide something countering my point. Dismissal without a counter point isn't helping your case.
Think of a big university in terms of enrollment vs a smaller one. All the premier companies in the area will have more people from Big U than from Smaller U. Yet as an individual your chances of getting hired are exactly the same whether you graduated from Big U or from Smaller U.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
You have provided opinion, I have provided facts. Sorry but facts will win every time.
You have provided irrelevant facts that did not back up you opinion in the least. That I didn't bother arguing them, yet still disagreed with your opinion should have told you how irrelevant they were.

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12-08-2012, 03:40 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
Think of a big university in terms of enrollment vs a smaller one. All the premier companies in the area will have more people from Big U than from Smaller U. Yet as an individual your chances of getting hired are exactly the same whether you graduated from Big U or from Smaller U.


You have provided irrelevant facts that did not back up you opinion in the least. That I didn't bother arguing them, yet still disagreed with your opinion should have told you how irrelevant they were.
Would you like stats of the careers of players who graduate from the CHL, or maybe the number of top players to come from Europe to play in the CHL.

What you feel is irrelevant does not make it so, you have literally no leg to stand on to say the CHL is not the top developmental league in the world.

The large majority of the best players come from and develop in the CHL, I don't care if you like it or believe i, but it is a fact. But you are more than welcome to try and prove me wrong.

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12-08-2012, 03:56 PM
  #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
More NHLers graduate from the CHL than from other leagues, therefore you're increasing your chances of joining the NHL if you join the CHL? Is that your reasoning?

If it is, that's so stupid that I don't know whether to or .
I think you're the one being ignorant here. NHL teams almost always want their prospects to play in the CHL over the NCAA and especially over the European leagues.

Also, your analogy is bad and you should feel bad. When the NHL has a disproportionate CHL-graduate population, it just means you don't understand what you're talking about.

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12-08-2012, 03:58 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Would you like stats of the careers of players who graduate from the CHL, or maybe the number of top players to come from Europe to play in the CHL.
The number of top players to come from Europe to play in the CHL vs the number of top players to come from Europe who did not play in the CHL? I'm fairly certain the second number is much bigger, but by all means go ahead and tell us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
The large majority of the best players come from and develop in the CHL, I don't care if you like it or believe i, but it is a fact. But you are more than welcome to try and prove me wrong.
I have already told you that this is not what I'm arguing. Do you not understand?

More top players come from the CHL than from another league.

It simply does not follow that a Swedish or Russian player is any better off leaving his country and joining the CHL instead.

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12-08-2012, 04:12 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
The fact is, and you know it, that the Canadian team in Vancouver probably wasn't as good as the Canadian team that took an a** reaming from Russia and everyone else at Torino. The difference: home ice. In fact, let's be realistic, the game against Russia was the only good game that Canada played in Vancouver (unless you want to count Germany). Canada should have been eliminated by Slovakia (sound familiar, if you paid attention the 2012 WHC), except for a lucky bounce and some real home cooking from the refs. They lost to the US in round robin, and only won in OT against the Americans on a lucky bounce in the Gold Medal game. Sometimes its better to be lucky than good, but lets face it, that was far from a dominant Canadian team. I expect the Canadian team from Torino to show up in Sochi.
I beg to differ and it has nothing to with the results in Vancouver and Torino. Team Canada in Italy was a team composed of too many players that didn;t really want to be there and players who were really past it. The Vancouver squad was a much better team.

Canada always plays down to a lesser team and in a one game winner take all that can be dangerous. The Slovakian and Canadian teams could play 20 times in Vancouver and the Canadian team would win 19 times.

Yak you're a bigger homer than most Canadians on this board.

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12-08-2012, 04:45 PM
  #519
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
The number of top players to come from Europe to play in the CHL vs the number of top players to come from Europe who did not play in the CHL? I'm fairly certain the second number is much bigger, but by all means go ahead and tell us.


I have already told you that this is not what I'm arguing. Do you not understand?

More top players come from the CHL than from another league.

It simply does not follow that a Swedish or Russian player is any better off leaving his country and joining the CHL instead.
I have already given my numbers, if you have facts to prove that Euro players are better off (for their hockey career, not personal lives) then prove it. But you cannot, because the CHL is a better developmental league and there is no argument to be made.

If his goal is to become a better player and make the NHL, the yes, he is better off leaving his home country to join the CHL.

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12-08-2012, 04:54 PM
  #520
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
I have already given my numbers, if you have facts to prove that Euro players are better off (for their hockey career, not personal lives) then prove it. But you cannot, because the CHL is a better developmental league and there is no argument to be made.

If his goal is to become a better player and make the NHL, the yes, he is better off leaving his home country to join the CHL.
No it's not.

http://www.iihf.com/fileadmin/user_u...Times_10_6.pdf

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12-08-2012, 05:02 PM
  #521
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That is not what that article says at all.

If you want to be an NHL player, CHL is the prime route.

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12-08-2012, 05:15 PM
  #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
That is not what that article says at all.

If you want to be an NHL player, CHL is the prime route.

Perhaps it is for North Americans. However, for Europeans it clearly states:

*Playing in the CHL does not improve a player’s chance for a successful NHL
career.
*The often used reasoning by scouts and agents that going to North America,
the minor leagues or the CHL, earlier increases a player’s chance of getting an
NHL-contract is a misconception.

These findings are backed by an wealth of evidence.

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12-08-2012, 06:36 PM
  #523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
More than half the players in the National Hockey League for the 2005–06 NHL season had played in the CHL. The CHL is generally considered the world's top professional development junior hockey league.

And since the NHL is the top league in the world, that says something about the CHL

In the 2012 NHL Entry draft the picks were as follows:

CHL - 18 (60%)
USHL - 5 (16.6%)
Sweden - 2 (6.6%)
Russia - 1 (3.3%)
Czech - 1 (3.3%)
Finland - 1 (3.3%)
High - QC - 1 (3.3%)

Beyond that 8 of the top 10 picks were CHL players. 80% of the top 10 picks were CHL players, if that doesn't scream top developmental league, I don't know what does.
If the CHL is that good, how do explain how they lost 2 of the last 3 Subway Super Series' to Russia?

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12-08-2012, 07:19 PM
  #524
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
If the CHL is that good, how do explain how they lost 2 of the last 3 Subway Super Series' to Russia?
How about we try a CDN team from all 3 leagues as opposed to 3 teams being thrown together?

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12-08-2012, 08:51 PM
  #525
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In terms of performance yes.

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