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World Junior Championship Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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Old
12-11-2012, 09:31 AM
  #601
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
16 countries, and only 3 maybe 4 are relevant in the hockey world.


Like it or not the NHL is the forefront of the hockey universe, and finals IS more important to many then the WHC.

I don't know why you fight so hard for a 2nd rate international tournament.
thanks for displaying your ignorance once again

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12-11-2012, 09:36 AM
  #602
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Apparently so, NHL teams don't even come close to how stacked the European countries get around WC time. Even Team Canada that was sent over there when added up would have like 120 million salary if it played in the NHL. The hockey is really good too, much better than the grind that NHL final was last year with injured Kovy. Finals were soo boring, who cares about LAK or NJD other than people from those cities...
I meant WHC is inferior to Olympics as it is not best-on-best and winning it is not as great of an accomplishment as it is held every year. On the subject though of a comparison to the NHL playoffs, WHC is arguably a lesser brand of hockey save for one or two teams, there are 16 NHL teams with a chance to win compared to 5 or 6, and the fact that it is the culmination of a 9 month season makes it a greater accomplishment.

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12-11-2012, 09:37 AM
  #603
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
I meant WHC is inferior to Olympics as it is not best-on-best and winning it is not as great of an accomplishment as it is held every year. On the subject though of a comparison to the NHL playoffs, WHC is arguably a lesser brand of hockey save for one or two teams, there are 16 NHL teams with a chance to win compared to 5 or 6, and the fact that it is the culmination of a 9 month season makes it a greater accomplishment.
Curse your infernal, ignorant and arrogant logic.

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12-11-2012, 09:43 AM
  #604
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
I meant WHC is inferior to Olympics as it is not best-on-best and winning it is not as great of an accomplishment as it is held every year. On the subject though of a comparison to the NHL playoffs, WHC is arguably a lesser brand of hockey save for one or two teams, there are 16 NHL teams with a chance to win compared to 5 or 6, and the fact that it is the culmination of a 9 month season makes it a greater accomplishment.
Wait so WHC is inferior to Olympics because it's not best-on-best, but it's a hell lot closer to best on best than NHL finals are and held every year - and Stanley cup is nowhere close to best on best and it's also held every year, but it's a greater accomplishment? Huh?? good job

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12-11-2012, 09:50 AM
  #605
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Wait so WHC is inferior to Olympics because it's not best-on-best, but it's a hell lot closer to best on best than NHL finals are and held every year - and Stanley cup is nowhere close to best on best and it's also held every year, but it's a greater accomplishment? Huh?? good job
I was about to repond but your use of smilies has me rattled.

Interested to hear what your excuse will be if Russia does not win in 2014.

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12-11-2012, 10:09 AM
  #606
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The basic rule of thumb is, if the Russians win it, it matters.

If they don't, it doesn't matter quite so much.

I've been pretty consistent in my opinions for years and years (for those of you who remember me on the IHWC forums).

I like the WCs, but even back when we'd win, it was more of a distraction than anything I took seriously.

Now I understand that it's only my opinion, however, it is shared by a lot of North Americans who are in the same boat.

For the record, I have the same attitude towards the WJCs. Very entertaining, and like college sports, it's always a new line-up, but not proof of too much IMO.


Last edited by NyQuil: 12-11-2012 at 10:25 AM.
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12-11-2012, 11:33 AM
  #607
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
So, you have a tournament that was largely held on North American soil (except once), took place in the summer months, employed NHL officials, and was won largely by North American (re: except for 1981) teams throughout its entire history.

Do I believe that Europeans put a lot of stock in this tournament? No, and it's pretty obvious why.

Now you've got another tournament that was largely held on European soil (except once), took place during the NHL playoffs, employed European trained officials, and was won largely by European countries throughout its entire history (once you get past the era of black and white television).

I wonder where I could be going with this.
In regard to the Canada Cup, its almost impossible to say which was better, the Soviet Union or Canada. Even after Alan Eagleson barred European referees from the medal rounds in 1984, thereby greatly diminishing (if not eliminating) the chance that a European team could win, those tournaments came as close to being a draw as you could possibly get. The Soviets beat Canada in the Final in 1981 by a score of 8-1 with a European ref, Dag Olsson of Sweden, which is why Euro refs were eliminated from the medal round thereafter. In 1984, the Soviets beat Canada 6-3 in the round robin with Olsson refereeing, but lost to Canada 3-2 (OT) in the Semis with an American ref. In 1987, the Soviets and Canada tied, 3-3, in the round robin, and then played consecutive 6-5 games (Soviets, Canada [2 overtime periods], Canada). Total goals in the 4 meetings between the Soviets and Canada in 1987 were 17-16 in favor of Canada. In 1991, the two teams met once, and tied 3-3. After 1991, hockey began to disintegrate in Russia for about 12 years, but during the Soviet era when hockey was strong, there was no difference between Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Borque, Coffey, etc., and the great Russian stars of the time.

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12-11-2012, 11:55 AM
  #608
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The difference is that Canada won the tournament every time except for twice - once in 1981, and once in 1996.

I'll give you credit for valuing the Canada Cup/World Cup far more than most Europeans, who only see it as a rigged tournament, much as how most North Americans have viewed the WCs for decades.

The Canada Cup/World Cup existed because the Olympics didn't fulfill that role.

I tend to agree that the Olympics as they are now pretty much eliminates the purpose of that tournament because we have a true best-on-best tournament now and it's redundant.

I wouldn't mind a sort of World Championships-World Cup-World Championships-Olympics cycle but I can't see the IIHF ever agreeing to it, and as I said before, it's not really necessary.

However, it would be nice to have some primetime senior-level hockey broadcasted in Canada on occasion to drive interest in it.


Last edited by NyQuil: 12-11-2012 at 12:03 PM.
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12-11-2012, 11:57 AM
  #609
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Nope, Canada is still #1. It's the one and only thing that we are the best in the world at, but make no mistake, hockey is ours.

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12-11-2012, 12:02 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Oh so we are using "ifs" and "buts" to attack Canadians.. good to know.

The thread at hand was about Russia being number 1 right now. They are not, Canadians and Russia and Sweds and Fins and Americans have all said it. Yet Many Russians are still here calling us arrogant and trying to prove otherwise.
I didn't call you arrogant. I'm sorry if some mean Russians did. Can we move past this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
This thread didn't get to 24 pages because of what has been proven, it is at 24 pages because Canadians/Hockey Canada keep getting called out in a effort to prove that Canada is not #1, even by those who have openly admitted that we are. Sounds pretty trollish to me.
If the thread were truly about whether or not Russia was #1, it would have been over by page 2 with both Canadians and Russians agreeing that no, in fact, Russia is not #1. The thread title is a little misleading, perhaps sensationalist, but I think the OP was trying to initiate this discussion. Even if I'm wrong, that's where the discussion is now, there's no sense fighting it.

Unless you just want us to toot your horn for 600 posts about how great Canada is. No thanks.

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12-11-2012, 12:04 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
Nope, Canada is still #1. It's the one and only thing that we are the best in the world at, but make no mistake, hockey is ours.
That's why I'm happy to say that all the victories over Canada in the last 5 years ( and there are quiet a few) are a special pleasure to look back on.

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12-11-2012, 12:06 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
That's why I'm happy to say that all the victories over Canada in the last 5 years ( and there are quiet a few) are a special pleasure to look back on.
Hockey is better off.

When the Russians were absolutely embarassingly awful for that 10-15 year period or so, the hockey world certainly wasn't as interesting.

I never thought I would feel sorry for the Russians, but I certainly did.

No team with that kind of storied history should be that putrid.

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12-11-2012, 12:06 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
That's why I'm happy to say that all the victories over Canada in the last 5 years ( and there are quiet a few) are a special pleasure to look back on.
Well there have also been quite a few losses (even poundings) that Russia has sustained in the past five years.

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12-11-2012, 12:08 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
Well there have also been quite a few losses (even poundings) that Russia has sustained in the past five years.
There's parity of sorts at the international level.

It's a little more interesting than the Cold War IMO with more competitive teams (e.g. the Swedes and the Finns).

Unfortunately, with the rise of the Russians, we've also had the decline of the Czechs/Slovaks, which is too bad because we don't really get ahead.

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12-11-2012, 12:30 PM
  #615
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
thanks for displaying your ignorance once again
I'm sorry but it is, just like the WC.

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12-11-2012, 12:33 PM
  #616
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Wait so WHC is inferior to Olympics because it's not best-on-best, but it's a hell lot closer to best on best than NHL finals are and held every year - and Stanley cup is nowhere close to best on best and it's also held every year, but it's a greater accomplishment? Huh?? good job
You seem to be forgetting the 9 month 82 games+Playoff battle. Winning the Stanley cup is a far greater accomplishment for any hockey player.

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12-11-2012, 12:42 PM
  #617
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
You seem to be forgetting the 9 month 82 games+Playoff battle. Winning the Stanley cup is a far greater accomplishment for any hockey player.
You have an incredible ability to alienate anyone and everyone around you.

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12-11-2012, 12:52 PM
  #618
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
You seem to be forgetting the 9 month 82 games+Playoff battle. Winning the Stanley cup is a far greater accomplishment for any hockey player.
Its greater accomplishment but it doesn't mean it has higher quality hockey than WHC, at least last year that was the case.

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12-11-2012, 12:55 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by RorschachWJK View Post
I see, 3 or 4 countries are relevant in your mind...So you're saying that Canada, Russia, US and maybe Sweden are relevant. That means Finland, Czech Republic and Slovakia are irrelevant I guess. Good to know for future discussions...easier to filter the ignorant away.
Thank you for being overtly literal.

If you would filter me that would be fantastic, I would rather not have to tip toe around words to pander to you.

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12-11-2012, 12:57 PM
  #620
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Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
Its greater accomplishment but it doesn't mean it has higher quality hockey than WHC, at least last year that was the case.
I find it more entertaining, and a greater accomplishment, so that alone makes it more important to me, and nearly all North Americans. I am also convinced if there wasn't a massive time delay you would see more Europeans and Russians watching.

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12-11-2012, 12:57 PM
  #621
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
You have an incredible ability to alienate anyone and everyone around you.
Why thank you.


edit: I have a strong opinion on hockey and won't be filtering it, this isn't pre-school where everyone needs to be friends and get along.

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12-11-2012, 01:04 PM
  #622
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Why thank you.


edit: I have a strong opinion on hockey and won't be filtering it, this isn't pre-school where everyone needs to be friends and get along.
It's great that you have a strong opinion on hockey, I'd bet most people here do. You just seem to lack the some of the skills that the most people learned in pre-school. You certainly don't need to agree with everyone here, that wasn't my point. But when your only tool is to insult anything and everything, your "strong" opinion will often be interpreted as pig headed and ignorant. It's just an observation that you are free to both ignore or insult.

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12-11-2012, 01:06 PM
  #623
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
It's great that you have a strong opinion on hockey, I'd bet most people here do. You just seem to lack the some of the skills that the most people learned in pre-school. You certainly don't need to agree with everyone here, that wasn't my point. But when your only tool is to insult anything and everything, your "strong" opinion will often be interpreted as pig headed and ignorant. It's just an observation that you are free to both ignore or insult.
Oh yes the classic insult, "You seem to be forgetting the 9 month 82 games+Playoff battle. Winning the Stanley cup is a far greater accomplishment for any hockey player." How did I ever miss that?




BTW I am sarcastic too.

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12-11-2012, 01:20 PM
  #624
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Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
I dont think Finland is in top 5 nations in the world and we have won:

2010: Olympic bronze
2006: Olympic silver
2004: World cup silver

And yet US is without a doubt number 2 nation ?
2010: Olympic silver
--
--
I'd say the Finnish TEAM should always be included the top group, but they certainly do not produce the same volume of top level players. Teams like Finland (and Switzerland) are much better than the sum of their parts.

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12-11-2012, 01:42 PM
  #625
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
So a single win erases years of failure? Good to know.
How is past years relevant then? Russia will be the number 1 hockey nation until next olympics if they win 2014. Anything past 2006 (even that is pushing it) is hardly relevant, almost all (if not all) players who played the 2006 olympics (and definitely all olympics past) are way past their prime, or retired, why should they count?

Oh and if Sweden, USA, Finland, whatever wins in 2014, they will obviously also be number 1 for 4 years.


Last edited by Jonimaus: 12-11-2012 at 01:55 PM.
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