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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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Old
12-15-2012, 06:43 PM
  #776
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Originally Posted by Kap-the-Head View Post
I think, we as fans, are entitled to hope that given a chance any hockey nation would be represented in its full potential. I think we all agree that waiting for an all star competition every 4 years is painful. Thus regardless whether it is a World Cup, World Championship, or Olympics, we could enjoy the best quality hockey, especially if a chance presents itself, like it might in the spring of 2013. Usually, the negative perception of World Championship coming form North American fans, is that its best players are competing in Stanley cup playoffs, this might not be the case this time. So Canada, get off your high horse, and take this one seriously once in a lifetime, because, if you don't, the excuse of "we don't care" this time is going to look very lame.
Once again, evidence that this is a troll thread to eventually bait Canadian fans into dissing the WHC's that have never seriously tried to adapt to the NHL schedule except for the Olympics that, btw, Canada has the best record in and is the defending champs.

But if knocking Canada off it's pedestal with semantics, criticism of not caring enough, and ignoring results from less than three years ago keeps people interested, have at it.

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12-15-2012, 06:48 PM
  #777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap-the-Head View Post
I think, we as fans, are entitled to hope that given a chance any hockey nation would be represented in its full potential. I think we all agree that waiting for an all star competition every 4 years is painful. Thus regardless whether it is a World Cup, World Championship, or Olympics, we could enjoy the best quality hockey, especially if a chance presents itself, like it might in the spring of 2013. Usually, the negative perception of World Championship coming form North American fans, is that its best players are competing in Stanley cup playoffs, this might not be the case this time. So Canada, get off your high horse, and take this one seriously once in a lifetime, because, if you don't, the excuse of "we don't care" this time is going to look very lame.
If the players don't care they don't care.


I do hope they go because a) I want top level hockey to watch and b) to shut people up when the real Canadian team shows up and walks all over everyone.

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12-15-2012, 07:05 PM
  #778
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Once again, evidence that this is a troll thread to eventually bait Canadian fans into dissing the WHC's that have never seriously tried to adapt to the NHL schedule except for the Olympics that, btw, Canada has the best record in and is the defending champs.

But if knocking Canada off it's pedestal with semantics, criticism of not caring enough, and ignoring results from less than three years ago keeps people interested, have at it.
Yes you are tied with Russia/USSR at 8 gold medals.

2 silver medals

2 bronze medals

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12-15-2012, 07:06 PM
  #779
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
If the players don't care they don't care.


I do hope they go because a) I want top level hockey to watch and b) to shut people up when the real Canadian team shows up and walks all over everyone.
But if they don't surely you will have a good excuse?

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12-15-2012, 07:16 PM
  #780
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I'm not someone who says "we don't care about WHC" or anything like that but the Russians can beat us 10 out of 10 times in the next international competitions and I'd still consider Canada to be the best at hockey in the world by a mile. And the reason I feel this is because of how damn good our lineup is and how good our depth is. I would rather take a Canada mixed A/B squad than the Russian A squad at the time being.

I know you can say that what looks good on paper might not look good on the ice but at the same time having a tournament by quickly putting together a team without much coaching and judging based on a couple games isn't that much more accurate than the performance of those players trying their best in the NHL and measuring them based on that performance and how it would look on paper. I know this sounds very arrogant to say and I probably wouldn't have said it around 12 yrs ago but that's just how I see it now, the depth and the amount of Canadian stars is incomparable nowadays.

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12-15-2012, 07:53 PM
  #781
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Originally Posted by um View Post
when your trolling most the time it is easy to lose track of the topic. the topic is whether the IIHF ranking is relevant and if the WHC means anything. while i agree that canada is number 1 to say the WC means nothing because a few nhlers cant come is ridiculous. clamming any league or tournament like the khl, nhl, and the WC as irrelevant or meaningless is silly especially since the IIHF rankings are done fairly and it is probably the best hockey we see every year (best players playing i mean).
When the majority of 'A' players for every contender except maybe Russia are not playing, I think it's reasonable to doubt the validity of the result.

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12-15-2012, 08:03 PM
  #782
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I'm not someone who says "we don't care about WHC" or anything like that but the Russians can beat us 10 out of 10 times in the next international competitions and I'd still consider Canada to be the best at hockey in the world by a mile. And the reason I feel this is because of how damn good our lineup is and how good our depth is. I would rather take a Canada mixed A/B squad than the Russian A squad at the time being.

I know you can say that what looks good on paper might not look good on the ice but at the same time having a tournament by quickly putting together a team without much coaching and judging based on a couple games isn't that much more accurate than the performance of those players trying their best in the NHL and measuring them based on that performance and how it would look on paper. I know this sounds very arrogant to say and I probably wouldn't have said it around 12 yrs ago but that's just how I see it now, the depth and the amount of Canadian stars is incomparable nowadays.
Does Canada have the best hockey program in the world? Abso ****ing lutely!!! I wish more people in every nation were as passionate about hockey as they are in Canada. Nevertheles, having an opportunity to play the best players, and have a chance to win against players at the world stage, is what makes any international tourney a treat to watch. This year, as much as enjoyable the Russian victory has been, many of us were upset that we did not get to face Canada. Because, you have the best hockey program, and any time we beat you guys is sweeter than many other victories.

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12-15-2012, 08:19 PM
  #783
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I probably should have known better that no Canadian/N. American can make a comment about the WHC without it setting off a ****storm. I tried making a fair and reasonable argument... but the response we get is "Canadians on their high horse again...." The world championships means more to Europe than it does to us... good for you! knock yourselves out, you certainly don't need us around trying to rain on your parade. I am perhaps more pro WHC than most Canadians. I've been to 3 in Europe. I'd still prefer the NHL playoffs any day of the week and 3 times on Sunday! I hope the A team shows up this year.... but like I said, I don't think it will. The best we can hope for is the B+ team.

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12-15-2012, 08:34 PM
  #784
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Originally Posted by Kap-the-Head View Post
Does Canada have the best hockey program in the world? Abso ****ing lutely!!! I wish more people in every nation were as passionate about hockey as they are in Canada. Nevertheles, having an opportunity to play the best players, and have a chance to win against players at the world stage, is what makes any international tourney a treat to watch. This year, as much as enjoyable the Russian victory has been, many of us were upset that we did not get to face Canada. Because, you have the best hockey program, and any time we beat you guys is sweeter than many other victories.
Meh, considering the Canadian approach to WHC I'm glad that they keep stumbling.

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12-15-2012, 08:48 PM
  #785
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Originally Posted by Kap-the-Head View Post
But if all the best players available, does it really matter what you label a tournament? The only reason people praise Olympics, IMO, is this is the only tourny that is allowed all the best available players to participates. If everyone has a chance to play, then they should, regardless of the prize.
I agree. While I am not a big fan of the WHC the 2013 tournament should be considred a best vs best tournament. Just like in 2005!

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12-15-2012, 09:15 PM
  #786
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Was 2005 WHC "best on best"?

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12-15-2012, 09:20 PM
  #787
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
I probably should have known better that no Canadian/N. American can make a comment about the WHC without it setting off a ****storm. I tried making a fair and reasonable argument... but the response we get is "Canadians on their high horse again...." The world championships means more to Europe than it does to us... good for you! knock yourselves out, you certainly don't need us around trying to rain on your parade. I am perhaps more pro WHC than most Canadians. I've been to 3 in Europe. I'd still prefer the NHL playoffs any day of the week and 3 times on Sunday! I hope the A team shows up this year.... but like I said, I don't think it will. The best we can hope for is the B+ team.
Well you guys keep on insisting on the idea of bringing 2-3 "Canada" teams to an international tournament, so obviously, with Canada's depth you could muster a competetive roster with players out of the playoffs, that should be strong enough for you to care. But why don't you care? Is it because the game is played on big ice, time schedule, the game not being played in front of Canadian crowd, or is it because of the lack of success in the recent years?

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12-15-2012, 11:30 PM
  #788
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^ It has nothing to do with lack of success. Canada went through a 50 yr drought at the Olympics but everyone was extremely passionate and enjoyed watching Salt Lake (and even Nagano despite the timezone problem).

As for bringing along 3 teams....if you look at Canada's best B team on paper, it's still better usually (on defense for sure) than the team that they've sent to the WHC the last couple seasons.

Anyways this is how I see it....Russia has overtaken or is equal at the #1 spot in terms of results in Intl competition results. No Canadian can dispute this fact because it's an actual fact, you've simply been winning more recently. However we're still comfortable saying that Canada produces the best hockey players in the world and has unparalleled depth. If we go a long period of time without winning any intl tourney then maybe it'll get to us but with the olympic win a couple yrs ago and a WJC not too long ago Canadians are fairly secure about their status regardless of the intl results from the past couple years.

So in the end it's all about philosophy, how much you value intl tournament results vs NHL player status or how good players are on paper.

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12-16-2012, 01:17 AM
  #789
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
If the players don't care they don't care.


I do hope they go because a) I want top level hockey to watch and b) to shut people up when the real Canadian team shows up and walks all over everyone.
Let's face it, Kap-the-Head has a great point. All of Canada's best players will be available for the WHC this year, as will all other players around the World. No Stanley Cup playoffs to interfere. If Canadian players decide not to show up because they are disinterested, it will still be a best on best win for the Victor. No excuses to the contrary.

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12-16-2012, 02:15 AM
  #790
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I do think that not caring about international hockey to a degree takes away from any claim to be #1 at it.

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12-16-2012, 04:16 AM
  #791
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Originally Posted by Kap-the-Head View Post
Does Canada have the best hockey program in the world? Abso ****ing lutely!!! I wish more people in every nation were as passionate about hockey as they are in Canada. Nevertheles, having an opportunity to play the best players, and have a chance to win against players at the world stage, is what makes any international tourney a treat to watch. This year, as much as enjoyable the Russian victory has been, many of us were upset that we did not get to face Canada. Because, you have the best hockey program, and any time we beat you guys is sweeter than many other victories.
Not that I mean to be rude here, but this thread should have never survived beyond 5 minutes, it's a troll thread started by who? and since I spent the morning reading the Russian sports websites and was reading for myself the euphoria of all the Russian fans grab assing one another over the the results of the Moscow Eurotour, "The return of the Big Red Machine" and how the gold medal Canadians bought in Vancouver will be forced fed to us in Sochi, and we'll be destroyed by the Big Red Machine and all the other petty insults thrown at Canadians on Russian sites that few Canadians, given the language barrier, frequent, but since I'm gifted in reading Russian, and even slang Russian, I know what is written and what is said... never mind what Canadian team shows up at the World Championship in May. That should be the least of your concerns, the gold medal in Sochi is all we are worried about...and it's all Russia and Russian fans should be worried about, because I tell you one thing, Canada may not win in Sochi, but I like our chances a hell of a lot better than Russia's chances...See you in February 2014.

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12-16-2012, 07:48 AM
  #792
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Originally Posted by Kap-the-Head View Post
Well you guys keep on insisting on the idea of bringing 2-3 "Canada" teams to an international tournament, so obviously, with Canada's depth you could muster a competetive roster with players out of the playoffs, that should be strong enough for you to care. But why don't you care? Is it because the game is played on big ice, time schedule, the game not being played in front of Canadian crowd, or is it because of the lack of success in the recent years?
Why should we/the players care?

The fact that it takes place during the NHL season is reason enough to not be interested.

Despite a competitive disadvantage to the US and Canada, results are used as a metric to rank teams for the Olympics, the only international senior tourney that matters.

It is played with different rules and on a different size ice surface. Why isn't it played according to Canadian/NHL rules and standards?

It's a quasi-European championship that because of the dynamics of world hockey probably won't be changing any time soon. I think the opportunity for some fans to annually take a **** on Canada is also motivation to not change the format.

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12-16-2012, 08:08 AM
  #793
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Let's face it, Kap-the-Head has a great point. All of Canada's best players will be available for the WHC this year, as will all other players around the World. No Stanley Cup playoffs to interfere. If Canadian players decide not to show up because they are disinterested, it will still be a best on best win for the Victor. No excuses to the contrary.
Don't you think that it would be more of an indication that the Championship is worthless?

I mean I could host a hockey championship in my backyard and state it is to determine the best hockey team ever but if the best players aren't motivated to show up then it really doesn't determine anything.

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12-16-2012, 08:23 AM
  #794
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Why should we/the players care?

The fact that it takes place during the NHL season is reason enough to not be interested.

Despite a competitive disadvantage to the US and Canada, results are used as a metric to rank teams for the Olympics, the only international senior tourney that matters.

It is played with different rules and on a different size ice surface. Why isn't it played according to Canadian/NHL rules and standards?

It's a quasi-European championship that because of the dynamics of world hockey probably won't be changing any time soon. I think the opportunity for some fans to annually take a **** on Canada is also motivation to not change the format.
Not a tournament that matters? Excuse me, but it matters alot to many, and I am sure it matters most of all to the players competing in the tournament, be it team Sweden or team Canada.

Just because the level of play is not at the same quality as the Olympics (which goes for all countries that take part), does not mean that the tournament is not a high quality event.
No matter how much you personaly care or do not, you can not move away from the fact that the WHC is at a high level of competitiveness and skill, thus giving it intrinisc value for hockey fans. Albeit not the same level of play as the Olympics, it is a showcase of hockey skill at high levels, and should be treated as such. Thus trying to discredit the tournament as not being any kind of an indicator of skill level seems to me quite absurd.

I rather think that your somewhat defencive and aggressive attitude is an indication of your reaction to cracks in the façade of team Canada, which you have built up in your mind. Not having a high placement on the IIHF rankings seems to prone some people to rationalise and discredit the WHC to an extent which can almost be seen as childish.

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12-16-2012, 01:37 PM
  #795
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Not that I mean to be rude here, but this thread should have never survived beyond 5 minutes, it's a troll thread started by who? and since I spent the morning reading the Russian sports websites and was reading for myself the euphoria of all the Russian fans grab assing one another over the the results of the Moscow Eurotour, "The return of the Big Red Machine" and how the gold medal Canadians bought in Vancouver will be forced fed to us in Sochi, and we'll be destroyed by the Big Red Machine and all the other petty insults thrown at Canadians on Russian sites that few Canadians, given the language barrier, frequent, but since I'm gifted in reading Russian, and even slang Russian, I know what is written and what is said... never mind what Canadian team shows up at the World Championship in May. That should be the least of your concerns, the gold medal in Sochi is all we are worried about...and it's all Russia and Russian fans should be worried about, because I tell you one thing, Canada may not win in Sochi, but I like our chances a hell of a lot better than Russia's chances...See you in February 2014.
Regardless of who wins in Sochi, I am curious as to why your comments seem extremely disdainful of Russia and Russians, and yet at the same time, you spend a large percentage of your life traveling to Russia and living in Russia. I seem to remember a post a month or two ago where you talked about traveling to Samara (interesting choice) and maybe living there for a year or two. How would you explain the love/hate meaning of Russia in your life?

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12-16-2012, 01:47 PM
  #796
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Not having a high placement on the IIHF rankings seems to prone some people to rationalise and discredit the WHC to an extent which can almost be seen as childish.
Please.

We couldn't care less about the IIHF ranking even when we were first.

Now do you understand?


Last edited by NyQuil: 12-16-2012 at 06:16 PM.
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12-16-2012, 01:56 PM
  #797
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Regardless of who wins in Sochi, I am curious as to why your comments seem extremely disdainful of Russia and Russians, and yet at the same time, you spend a large percentage of your life traveling to Russia and living in Russia. I seem to remember a post a month or two ago where you talked about traveling to Samara (interesting choice) and maybe living there for a year or two. How would you explain the love/hate meaning of Russia in your life?
Maybe you are just being overly sensitive because I don't sense any hatred towards Russia or Russians.

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12-16-2012, 02:29 PM
  #798
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Regardless of who wins in Sochi, I am curious as to why your comments seem extremely disdainful of Russia and Russians, and yet at the same time, you spend a large percentage of your life traveling to Russia and living in Russia. I seem to remember a post a month or two ago where you talked about traveling to Samara (interesting choice) and maybe living there for a year or two. How would you explain the love/hate meaning of Russia in your life?
This is the second time you asked that question about my love/hate relationship for Russia. I think you are misinterpreting things just a tad...
And if I recall correctly, I seem to remember referring a while back to Ivan Bunin's short story Solnichnii Udar. If you are familiar with the short story, then you get the reference to Samara. I've been to Samara, but I flew in, unfortunately didn't have the privilege of cruising down the Volga in July. I never lived there, never wanted to live there, but I enjoyed the week I spent there.

All I do is expose the hypocrisy of posters who seem to think that hurling insults at us is fair game because we don't care to play in your sandbox (World Championship). I chuckle when I read them, but nevertheless I responded to the post in a fair and respectful manner, yet the response is way to often insulting, "Canadians on their high horse" You do realize how childish those sorts of posts sound... "why you not like to play at WHC?" Why you not value it like we? Instead of asking Canadians that question, I think it would be better to pose it to the IIHF. I think they could shed some light as to why Canadians are indifferent to their organization and their springtime championship. And as for over the top Canadian arrogance and our perceived superiority complex, I suggest all posters learn Russian and spend a little time on Russian websites. ))) It's an eyeopener. I know all the derogatory Russian words for Americans and Canadians that Russians use on those sites...and they are used among Russians matter-of-factly like its all great fun; but that ok right? For Russian eyes only or so it's intended.

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12-16-2012, 02:39 PM
  #799
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All the words are spelled correctly, the grammar is fine, but this sentence is absolute nonsense.
Maybe there is something wrong with you reading comprehension Just kidding.

I was mainly addressing those who call it a "meaningless" tournament, and I already explained why I feel it has value. What I would like is to get a respons as to why anyone can make an attempt on an objective statement, claiming that WHC is not a tournament that matters. Which was what I responded to.

Note that I did not respond to someone saying it does not matter to him or her, but to proclaime a certain truth that is does not matter overall, should be backed up with some sort of coherent argument. Seeing as this would then tie up to the topic discussion which is in regards to the level of relevance of the IIHF ranking system.

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12-16-2012, 02:41 PM
  #800
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Holy ****, Batman! All I want to know if you guys are as interested in seeing a world class competition as I am, since we might have a chance this spring. Would you really rather spent an entire spring watching "Oil Change" or Brett Hall tribute re-runs, instead of watching an Olympic preview sort of speak.

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