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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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12-16-2012, 01:44 PM
  #801
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Originally Posted by Henri M View Post
Maybe there is something wrong with you reading comprehension Just kidding.

I was mainly addressing those who call it a "meaningless" tournament, and I already explained why I feel it has value. What I would like is to get a respons as to why anyone can make an attempt on an objective statement, claiming that WHC is not a tournament that matters. Which was what I responded to.

Note that I did not respond to someone saying it does not matter to him or her, but to proclaime a certain truth that is does not matter overall, should be backed up with some sort of coherent argument. Seeing as this would then tie up to the topic discussion which is in regards to the level of relevance of the IIHF ranking system.
Do you think that commentary on the meaningfulness of the WHC has anything to do with Canada not being #1?

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12-16-2012, 01:47 PM
  #802
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Holy ****, Batman! All I want to know if you guys are as interested in seeing a world class competition as I am, since we might have a chance this spring. Would you really rather spent an entire spring watching "Oil Change" or Brett Hall tribute re-runs, instead of watching an Olympic preview sort of speak.
And I think I answered, Yes, but unfortunately it's not up to us fans.

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12-16-2012, 02:35 PM
  #803
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
Do you think that commentary on the meaningfulness of the WHC has anything to do with Canada not being #1?
To some extent yes. I mean, Canada is the best country in the world when it comes hockey, I think a strong case for that can be made. But I also think that the IIHF torunaments indicate that Canadas position as number 1 is not as safe, or alteast not as far ahead as it used to be, other countries are catching up, and one could make a case that Russia is the closest contender.

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12-16-2012, 04:06 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by Henri M View Post
To some extent yes. I mean, Canada is the best country in the world when it comes hockey, I think a strong case for that can be made. But I also think that the IIHF torunaments indicate that Canadas position as number 1 is not as safe, or alteast not as far ahead as it used to be, other countries are catching up, and one could make a case that Russia is the closest contender.
But nobody here has ever really cared about the tournament. This isn't new. There are lots of reasons, from the timing, to the game times, to the awful broadcast quality and game coverage. Or maybe it's the stupid zepter stickers. We won't even get started on big ice hockey.


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12-16-2012, 04:12 PM
  #805
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Originally Posted by Henri M View Post
To some extent yes. I mean, Canada is the best country in the world when it comes hockey, I think a strong case for that can be made. But I also think that the IIHF torunaments indicate that Canadas position as number 1 is not as safe, or alteast not as far ahead as it used to be, other countries are catching up, and one could make a case that Russia is the closest contender.
If this was 2001, you may have a point. The question should be, what else does Canada have to do to be the unquestionable no. 1?

No other country comes close to Canada's record in best on best at all levels mens, U20, U18's (Ivan Hlinka).

Russia had their chance in 2010 to make a statement and failed.

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12-16-2012, 04:16 PM
  #806
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If this was 2001, you may have a point. The question should be, what else does Canada have to do to be the unquestionable no. 1?

No other country comes close to Canada's record in best on best at all levels mens, U20, U18's (Ivan Hlinka).

Russia had their chance in 2010 to make a statement and failed.
I think one first realizes that there never really is an unquestioned #1. Is Canada #1? I would argue yes at the moment. However to some degree this World Championship discussion is a bit reminiscent of a boxer who won the title and refuses to fight any challengers for as long as possible.

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12-16-2012, 04:38 PM
  #807
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
I think one first realizes that there never really is an unquestioned #1. Is Canada #1? I would argue yes at the moment. However to some degree this World Championship discussion is a bit reminiscent of a boxer who won the title and refuses to fight any challengers for as long as possible.
What you're suggesting is ducking competition, which is a terrible analogy.

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12-16-2012, 04:42 PM
  #808
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What you're suggesting is ducking competition, which is a terrible analogy.
Everyone knows the NHL plays playoff games in May so Canada can avoid playing in the WHC.

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12-16-2012, 04:43 PM
  #809
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
I think one first realizes that there never really is an unquestioned #1. Is Canada #1? I would argue yes at the moment. However to some degree this World Championship discussion is a bit reminiscent of a boxer who won the title and refuses to fight any challengers for as long as possible.
Canada: You want to go? Name the time and place.

IIHF: Last week

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12-16-2012, 05:04 PM
  #810
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Canada has unbelievable depth at almost every position. And you really can't say the same about team russia. Talk about depth, Russia is not even #2.

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12-16-2012, 06:20 PM
  #811
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Canada has unbelievable depth at almost every position. And you really can't say the same about team russia. Talk about depth, Russia is not even #2.
Depth dosent mather. Skill does! And there are only 3 countries that can put together 2 SUPER LINES and those countries are Canada, Russia and Sweden. Yes the US, Finland, Czech rep and Slovakia also got some rly good players, but they cant put together two SUPER LINES. And what do i mean by SUPER. Well im thinking about players like Sedin*2, Zetterberg, Alfredson, Kovalchuck, Malkin, Ovi, Semin, Dats, Crosby, Toews, Nash, Richards, Giroux etc. I mean world class players that can win the game alone, without any help.

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12-16-2012, 06:26 PM
  #812
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Originally Posted by TollefsenFan View Post
Depth dosent mather. Skill does! And there are only 3 countries that can put together 2 SUPER LINES and those countries are Canada, Russia and Sweden. Yes the US, Finland, Czech rep and Slovakia also got some rly good players, but they cant put together two SUPER LINES. And what do i mean by SUPER. Well im thinking about players like Sedin*2, Zetterberg, Alfredson, Kovalchuck, Malkin, Ovi, Semin, Dats, Crosby, Toews, Nash, Richards, Giroux etc. I mean world class players that can win the game alone, without any help.
But when you also have a VERY good 3rd and 4th line, along with 7 very good D and 3 solid goalies on your team you become the best. Those are things Russia doesn't have.. yet.

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12-16-2012, 06:41 PM
  #813
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
But when you also have a VERY good 3rd and 4th line, along with 7 very good D and 3 solid goalies on your team you become the best. Those are things Russia doesn't have.. yet.
U become the best if u win a best on best tournament like the olympics. Russia can very well win in Sochi, if and only if they play offensive hockey. They need to use their strength which is the top lines.

And seriously u dnt need 3 very good goalies. In most tournaments u only need one rly good goalie, perhaps two. Russia got Varlamov and Varly is young and VERY talented. Im an avs fan and i remember Anderson, Budaj, Eliott etc and those guys didnt impress me much. Varly on the other hand looks good. And 6 good Ds should be enough. Like Russia got a few okey NHL Ds + Gonshar. Im also a huge fan of Nikulin and imo he should move to the NHL.

Of course Canada will allways look superior on paper, but to be the best u have to win. Like Canada did in Vancouver.

So to sum up.
1 Russia deserves to be ranked as number 1, because they earned it.
2 Canada is the best hockey team, because they won the last olympics.
3 I bet that Sweden or Russia or Canada will win in Sochi.

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12-16-2012, 06:43 PM
  #814
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IIHF 2012 rankings have Canada at 5th and the US at 7th.

Any tiny little black-light CSI residue of credibility is thus gone from said rankings.

How is Finland #2? How many major world championships and/or gold medals do they have? Two in their history?

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12-16-2012, 06:47 PM
  #815
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
IIHF 2012 rankings have Canada at 5th and the US at 7th.

Any tiny little black-light CSI residue of credibility is thus gone from said rankings.

How is Finland #2? How many major world championships and/or gold medals do they have? Two in their history?
3rd in Vancouver, 2nd in Turin and WHC champion in 2011. Well the olympic silver medal dosent count, since its 6 years back in time. Still i would argue that Finland deserves to be ranked as number 2. They got some of the best goalies in the world, a few world class forwards like Koivu, Selanne etc.

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12-16-2012, 06:53 PM
  #816
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The depth is important, yes. However, this is not swimming or track, where you can have several athletes (read attempts) to win a gold for your country. The hockey tournaments are limited to 20+ guys per team, with one team per nation, that's it. So a nation does not have to have hundreds of super stars to be competetive, a dozen of stars and the rest of the guys that might not be well known can do the job, and we have seen it many times over. Depth does make it easier to be in a driver's seat when playing the game, but it is not, by far the most important factor, IMO. Canada produces most hockey players in the world, that's a fact! Does it automatically make you a number one? Not necessarily. Maybe a not a completely accurate example, nevertheless, it still applies: the US has 2.5 million registered soccer players, Spain has 629,000... and we all know how that pans out on the international stage. The Canadians are times better in hockey than the US at soccer, still, it shows that depth is not as important as some of you make it seem.

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12-16-2012, 06:55 PM
  #817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TollefsenFan View Post
3rd in Vancouver, 2nd in Turin and WHC champion in 2011. Well the olympic silver medal dosent count, since its 6 years back in time. Still i would argue that Finland deserves to be ranked as number 2. They got some of the best goalies in the world, a few world class forwards like Koivu, Selanne etc.
Just about everyone in the big 7 has great goalies and at least a few world class forwards. That's not enough.

It's obvious the IIHF puts exponentially more stock in their World Championship than anything else, which is played in May when alot of the best players are competing for a little something more important called the Stanley Cup.

When all the best players are on the ice I just don't see Finland on paper as being better than Canada, Russia, Sweden, or even the US.

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12-16-2012, 06:58 PM
  #818
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Originally Posted by Kap-the-Head View Post
The depth is important, yes. However, this is not swimming or track, where you can have several athletes (read attempts) to win a gold for your country. The hockey tournaments are limited to 20+ guys per team, with one team per nation, that's it. So a nation does not have to have hundreds of super stars to be competetive, a dozen of stars and the rest of the guys that might not be well known can do the job, and we have seen it many times over. Depth does make it easier to be in a driver's seat when playing the game, but it is not, by far the most important factor, IMO. Canada produces most hockey players in the world, that's a fact! Does it automatically make you a number one? Not necessarily. Maybe a not a completely accurate example, nevertheless, it still applies: the US has 2.5 million registered soccer players, Spain has 629,000... and we all know how that pans out on the international stage. The Canadians are times better in hockey than the US at soccer, still, it shows that depth is not as important as some of you make it seem.
If Canada were to send two teams to the Olympics they could feasibly go gold and silver. No other nation in the world can even come close to that.

Depth won't win you individual tournaments, but in the grand scheme of things, it says alot about the talent of a nation.

And the US/Spain soccer example you gave doesn't really apply. That's quantity vs quality. The US has more players. I bet none of them would make team Spain. Canada has quantity and quality.

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12-16-2012, 07:00 PM
  #819
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Just about everyone in the big 7 has great goalies and at least a few world class forwards. That's not enough.

It's obvious the IIHF puts exponentially more stock in their World Championship than anything else, which is played in May when alot of the best players are competing for a little something more important called the Stanley Cup.

When all the best players are on the ice I just don't see Finland on paper as being better than Canada, Russia, Sweden, or even the US.
Well Finland got 2 medals from the last best on best tournaments, so whats your point? How are they not the 2nd best team in the world?

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12-16-2012, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Kap-the-Head View Post
The depth is important, yes. However, this is not swimming or track, where you can have several athletes (read attempts) to win a gold for your country. The hockey tournaments are limited to 20+ guys per team, with one team per nation, that's it. So a nation does not have to have hundreds of super stars to be competetive, a dozen of stars and the rest of the guys that might not be well known can do the job, and we have seen it many times over. Depth does make it easier to be in a driver's seat when playing the game, but it is not, by far the most important factor, IMO. Canada produces most hockey players in the world, that's a fact! Does it automatically make you a number one? Not necessarily. Maybe a not a completely accurate example, nevertheless, it still applies: the US has 2.5 million registered soccer players, Spain has 629,000... and we all know how that pans out on the international stage. The Canadians are times better in hockey than the US at soccer, still, it shows that depth is not as important as some of you make it seem.
With a 2-0 US win, right?

But yes, if there's no NHL season I would definitely relish seeing a "true" World Championship this year.

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12-16-2012, 07:05 PM
  #821
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Originally Posted by TollefsenFan View Post
U become the best if u win a best on best tournament like the olympics. Russia can very well win in Sochi, if and only if they play offensive hockey. They need to use their strength which is the top lines.

And seriously u dnt need 3 very good goalies. In most tournaments u only need one rly good goalie, perhaps two. Russia got Varlamov and Varly is young and VERY talented. Im an avs fan and i remember Anderson, Budaj, Eliott etc and those guys didnt impress me much. Varly on the other hand looks good. And 6 good Ds should be enough. Like Russia got a few okey NHL Ds + Gonshar. Im also a huge fan of Nikulin and imo he should move to the NHL.

Of course Canada will allways look superior on paper, but to be the best u have to win. Like Canada did in Vancouver.

So to sum up.
1 Russia deserves to be ranked as number 1, because they earned it.
2 Canada is the best hockey team, because they won the last olympics.
3 I bet that Sweden or Russia or Canada will win in Sochi.
Best team at a single point in time =/= best hockey country.

Sorry but any raking of hockey countries that has Canada ranked at 5 is complete crap!

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12-16-2012, 07:06 PM
  #822
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Originally Posted by TollefsenFan View Post
Well Finland got 2 medals from the last best on best tournaments, so whats your point? How are they not the 2nd best team in the world?
I just don't see them as the constant threat to win gold the way some other countries are. And yes they did win Bronze best on best last time but were outclassed by the US in the semi-final, that hurt their them a little bit in my eyes.

But the Fins are great don't get me wrong. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I can see the argument for them being 2nd.

I more so take issue with 4 teams being ahead of Canada. That bends reality. I can't see that argument at all.

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12-16-2012, 07:15 PM
  #823
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I just don't see them as the constant threat to win gold the way some other countries are. And yes they did win Bronze best on best last time but were outclassed by the US in the semi-final, that hurt their them a little bit in my eyes.

But the Fins are great don't get me wrong. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I can see the argument for them being 2nd.

I more so take issue with 4 teams being ahead of Canada. That bends reality. I can't see that argument at all.
Well the finns are not ranked as number one, so they dnt need to be a threat to win gold Only a threat to win silver lol. And we are talking about the iihf ranking system. I think its an okey way for the iihf to decide which team that deserves to play in the olympics. My team (Norway) deserves to be automatically qualified, because of the way we have played over the last years. We faced a strong latvian team and won 3-0, a german team filled with top DEL players and won 12-4 etc. Ofc the germans would be much harder to beat with Seidenberg and Ehrhoff. Still we didnt have Mats Zuccarello. So i believe that it wasnt that unfair. So for the smaller hockey nations the iihf ranking is usefull. For the bigger nations its just stupid. I still would argue that the russians deserves to be ranked as number 1. That dosent mean that they are the best in the world.

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12-16-2012, 07:17 PM
  #824
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Best team at a single point in time =/= best hockey country.

Sorry but any raking of hockey countries that has Canada ranked at 5 is complete crap!
Send a better team to the whc and win. Then u will climb on the ranking. Its like tests at school. It dosent help to be the smartest and most gifted guy in class, if u dnt do your homework.

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12-16-2012, 07:23 PM
  #825
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I think one first realizes that there never really is an unquestioned #1. Is Canada #1? I would argue yes at the moment. However to some degree this World Championship discussion is a bit reminiscent of a boxer who won the title and refuses to fight any challengers for as long as possible.
You can't be serious? You really believe Canada is trying to duck their competion?


Canadians, who make up well over half of the NHL, are all for having NHL'ers compete at the Olympics. They welcome the competition.

The boxer isn't contractually obligated to paticipate in a much more important event that runs during the same time... The NHL schedules around the Olympics, but aren't going to do the same for a second tier tournament such as the WC.


Russia loves those tournaments though, they love the advantage.. How many gold medals did they rack up at the Olympics with all their best players playing against inferor competition due to most other countries best players being in the NHL?

Russia loves to play with the deck stacked in their favor. Records ar records, right? There should be an asterisk next to a lot of their international gold medals.

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