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Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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Old
12-03-2012, 05:12 PM
  #201
Lessy
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I hate it when people bring up the Subway Series as something Russia "won." On paper sure they won the Subway Series but they were playing at best, a third of our country at a time and squeaked out a win.

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12-03-2012, 05:34 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Helo View Post
God i hope sochi 2014 will be won by swedes,so these arrogant russian and canadian posters can finally ease up a bit.
2006 wasn't good enough for you?

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12-04-2012, 09:50 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Lessy View Post
I hate it when people bring up the Subway Series as something Russia "won." On paper sure they won the Subway Series but they were playing at best, a third of our country at a time and squeaked out a win.
I agree that the Russians weren't a LOT better than those kids from the CHL, just a little bit better. Those kids from the CHL tried really hard (e.g., Huberdeau, MacKinnon, Scheifele, Reilly, etc.), but in the end, it just wasn't enough. I thought the CHL guys looked really good for most of the tournament.

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12-04-2012, 09:54 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I agree that the Russians weren't a LOT better than those kids from the CHL, just a little bit better. Those kids from the CHL tried really hard (e.g., Huberdeau, MacKinnon, Scheifele, Reilly, etc.), but in the end, it just wasn't enough. I thought the CHL guys looked really good for most of the tournament.
Imagine putting one Canadian team and sending them to Russia and splitting Russia into 3 teams. I think it would be a blowout every game.

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12-04-2012, 09:58 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Leafs87 View Post
On the Junior level they are close, but senior level they are pretty far IMO
It is actually the exact opposite.

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12-04-2012, 11:09 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by stlblues9 View Post
Imagine putting one Canadian team and sending them to Russia and splitting Russia into 3 teams. I think it would be a blowout every game.
How do you know that? How much do you know about other Russian teams, such as the one that was simultaneously at the 4 Nations Tournament in Finland. How would you compare Buchnevich to MacKinnon? Were you aware that Russia used different players in all 6 games of the SSS? I think that Hockey Canada, like you, spends too much time dreaming about blowouts.

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12-04-2012, 11:11 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
It is actually the exact opposite.
Absolutely correct.

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12-04-2012, 11:28 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
How do you know that? How much do you know about other Russian teams, such as the one that was simultaneously at the 4 Nations Tournament in Finland. How would you compare Buchnevich to MacKinnon? Were you aware that Russia used different players in all 6 games of the SSS? I think that Hockey Canada, like you, spends too much time dreaming about blowouts.
He doesn't know that. That's why he said 'I think it would be a blowout'. Respond to what's actually written.

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12-04-2012, 12:37 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
What I meant was that Switzerland has a lot going for it that Russia doesn't. Aside from all the socioeconomic issues the travel alone for a hockey player in Switzerland is much easier.
...and yet Russian players will choose to go to the KHL every time, while Americans and Canadians will consider less money in Switzerland. That's the point. Russian players feel much more comfortable at home in their surroundings, while many North Americans cannot handle it and would prefer a much more comfortable choice like Sweden or Switzerland. Russians must make the cultural leap to North America.

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12-04-2012, 12:40 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
It is actually the exact opposite.
I was going to say the exact same thing. Junior level exacerbates the difference in talent pool. At the U20 level you realistically get quality players from 3-4 birth years at most. Canada with X million players will obviously have more than countries like the US or Russia, let alone Finland or others, who have less players. At the senior level you are able to utilize up to 15 or more birth years which can make a smaller country like Finland much more competitive.

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12-04-2012, 12:46 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Were you aware that Russia used different players in all 6 games of the SSS? I think that Hockey Canada, like you, spends too much time dreaming about blowouts.
Fifteen Russian skaters played all six games. Don't make it sound like Russia have different teams at the SSS.

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12-04-2012, 12:57 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
How do you know that? How much do you know about other Russian teams, such as the one that was simultaneously at the 4 Nations Tournament in Finland. How would you compare Buchnevich to MacKinnon? Were you aware that Russia used different players in all 6 games of the SSS? I think that Hockey Canada, like you, spends too much time dreaming about blowouts.
And how that team do at the 4 Nations tournament>? 3rd. scored 3 goals and I don't think Buchnevich even played... at least I don't see his name there. I only see the 4 Nations tournament for Sweden. Where's the one for Finland?

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12-04-2012, 01:23 PM
  #213
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The Under 17 tournament is a legitimate best-on-best tournament for kids of that age in the world. Canada sends 5 teams. The rest of the world sends 5 teams combined. One of their 5 teams has won 6 of the last 8 tournaments. The WJC and U18's are skewed for obvious reasons but at the junior level it is clear that Canada is head and shoulders above everyone else on paper. When it comes to the mens teams the top end talent is pretty similar but the depth of Canada puts them over the top. Overall much much closer in senior play rather than junior.

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12-04-2012, 01:34 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Macman View Post
Fifteen Russian skaters played all six games. Don't make it sound like Russia have different teams at the SSS.
Nor did the CHL field six completely different teams for all 6 games. They had their core players that we see time and again, and then a few outliers who were getting auditions. HC wouldn't have been willing to pay for a contingent of 50 Russian players, nor would it have been feasible to travel with a group that size, practice, etc. But within the numbers they had, they tried different combinations. Most of the players on the Russian team were getting a tryout.

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12-04-2012, 01:41 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
And how that team do at the 4 Nations tournament>? 3rd. scored 3 goals and I don't think Buchnevich even played... at least I don't see his name there. I only see the 4 Nations tournament for Sweden. Where's the one for Finland?
You missed my point completely. It should have been evident to you that I was saying that the SSS wasn't the only tournament where Russian kids were being evaluated for the WJC. There were kids being evaluated against a Swedish team that could be a favorite to win the WJC, if you recall your own assessment, as well as the Finnish and Czech U20 teams. Where they finished in the standings is completely irrelevant, since the objective was to evaluate the players. I am just trying to puncture the misconception that the guys who played in the SSS make up the final roster for the WJC - they don't!

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12-04-2012, 01:42 PM
  #216
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Um... no.

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12-04-2012, 01:48 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Lessy View Post
The Under 17 tournament is a legitimate best-on-best tournament for kids of that age in the world. Canada sends 5 teams. The rest of the world sends 5 teams combined. One of their 5 teams has won 6 of the last 8 tournaments. The WJC and U18's are skewed for obvious reasons but at the junior level it is clear that Canada is head and shoulders above everyone else on paper. When it comes to the mens teams the top end talent is pretty similar but the depth of Canada puts them over the top. Overall much much closer in senior play rather than junior.
The lower the age group, the better the chance that Canada will win. At the U20 and senior levels, there is sufficient equality so that any of the major teams can win any tournament, including the Olympics. At present, Canadians make up 53% of the NHL, but the percentage declines every year. Other countries have built depth at the senior level as well.

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12-04-2012, 02:04 PM
  #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Nor did the CHL field six completely different teams for all 6 games. They had their core players that we see time and again, and then a few outliers who were getting auditions. HC wouldn't have been willing to pay for a contingent of 50 Russian players, nor would it have been feasible to travel with a group that size, practice, etc. But within the numbers they had, they tried different combinations. Most of the players on the Russian team were getting a tryout.
No, they had players from 3 different leagues. Each got 2 games. There were common staples for each of those 2 games, but no single player was in all 6 games, infact no single player player more than 2 games.

The numbers

Teams Canada
Total # of Players - 88
  • Players to play 2 games - 36 - 40.9%
  • Players to play 1 game - 50 - 56.8%
  • Players to play 0 games - 2 - 2.2%

Team Russia
Total # of Players - 31
  • Players to play 6 games - 12 - 38.7%
  • Players to play 5 games - 4 - 12.9%
  • Players to play 4 games - 3 - 9.6%
  • Players to play 3 games - 3 - 9.6%
  • Players to play 2 games - 4 - 12.9%
  • Players to play 1 games - 5 - 16.1%

70.9% of Russian plays played more than 2 games. 0% of Canadian players played more than 2 games.

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12-04-2012, 02:05 PM
  #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
You missed my point completely. It should have been evident to you that I was saying that the SSS wasn't the only tournament where Russian kids were being evaluated for the WJC. There were kids being evaluated against a Swedish team that could be a favorite to win the WJC, if you recall your own assessment, as well as the Finnish and Czech U20 teams. Where they finished in the standings is completely irrelevant, since the objective was to evaluate the players. I am just trying to puncture the misconception that the guys who played in the SSS make up the final roster for the WJC - they don't!
Would you agree the at a large majority of the players in SSS will make up the WJC team? I would think that is a pretty safe bet.

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12-04-2012, 02:13 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
No, they had players from 3 different leagues. Each got 2 games. There were common staples for each of those 2 games, but no single player was in all 6 games, infact no single player player more than 2 games.

The numbers

Teams Canada
Total # of Players - 88
  • Players to play 2 games - 36 - 40.9%
  • Players to play 1 game - 50 - 56.8%
  • Players to play 0 games - 2 - 2.2%

Team Russia
Total # of Players - 31
  • Players to play 6 games - 12 - 38.7%
  • Players to play 5 games - 4 - 12.9%
  • Players to play 4 games - 3 - 9.6%
  • Players to play 3 games - 3 - 9.6%
  • Players to play 2 games - 4 - 12.9%
  • Players to play 1 games - 5 - 16.1%

70.9% of Russian plays played more than 2 games. 0% of Canadian players played more than 2 games.
Between last springs U20 4 Nations Tourny, the August SS, September 4 nations U20, November 4 Nations U20 and the SSS, Russia has tried out something like ~80 players too. Not far off from Canada's 88. Russian candidates also stuck around for longer and most tried out for more than 2 games.

I think it's better to try to build the core of team during the SSS 6 games, than during the first few of WJC. It worked well for Russia in the last few years, the focus on building a core during SSS.

Point is, the depth is there too, but they try to get the core group earlier. And as we saw in August SS, Canada and Russia were about equal with top group

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12-04-2012, 02:20 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Between last springs U20 4 Nations Tourny, the August SS, September 4 nations U20, November 4 Nations U20 and the SSS, Russia has tried out something like ~80 players too. Not far off from Canada's 88. Russian candidates also stuck around for longer and most tried out for more than 2 games.

I think it's better to try to build the core of team during the SSS 6 games, than during the first few of WJC. It worked well for Russia in the last few years, the focus on building a core during SSS.

Point is, the depth is there too, but they try to get the core group earlier. And as we saw in August SS, Canada and Russia were about equal with top group
Agreed. I wish Hockey Canada would have them play in more developmental games, would allow Canada to become an even better team. Being thrown together last minute when most other teams have had far more games to prep and gel seems like a slight disadvantage to Canada.

I was merely disproving Yakushev72 point that there was a core group of Canadian players with a few outliers, when in fact there was no core group at all. Where as Russia had nearly 40% of there team as a core group for all 6 games.

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12-04-2012, 02:26 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Agreed. I wish Hockey Canada would have them play in more developmental games, would allow Canada to become an even better team. Being thrown together last minute when most other teams have had far more games to prep and gel seems like a slight disadvantage to Canada.

I was merely disproving Yakushev72 point that there was a core group of Canadian players with a few outliers, when in fact there was no core group at all. Where as Russia had nearly 40% of there team as a core group for all 6 games.
There's still a core group of players for Canadian coaches. They dilute them with other players though throughout the SSS. It doesn't make much sense if they intend to test out different lineups or to get guys to gel. All that does is allow them to run through 88 players and only get a vague idea of capabilities and possible lines. They won't know if it actually will work in WJC until the actual tournament though.

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12-04-2012, 02:26 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
The lower the age group, the better the chance that Canada will win. At the U20 and senior levels, there is sufficient equality so that any of the major teams can win any tournament, including the Olympics. At present, Canadians make up 53% of the NHL, but the percentage declines every year. Other countries have built depth at the senior level as well.
Actually that number has pretty much held steady if not increased slightly over the past decade or so. The demo that has seen a decline in the past decade has been Europeans, but I think that is more to do with choice than anything else. Currently (even without the lockout) I would think there is more NHL level talent playing outside of the NHL than at anytime since the old eastern bloc fininshed disolving.

I agree with the other things you have said though. Canada's raw numbers are a big advantage (I also wonder if development curve might play a factor as well) when it comes to age restriction tournaments but once you open things up to the senior level things become much more level.

On another note I think a lot of people overrate the amount of elite NHL talent or even NHL talent in general you need to field a contending national team and I think there is plenty of evidence to back that opinion up. Obviously if I had a choice between a team made up from top to bottom of elite NHL talent or not I am taking my chances with the former but it is hardly a gaurantee or even a prerequisite to having success.


Last edited by CoolForumNamePending: 12-04-2012 at 02:38 PM.
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12-04-2012, 02:32 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
There's still a core group of players for Canadian coaches. They dilute them with other players though throughout the SSS. It doesn't make much sense if they intend to test out different lineups or to get guys to gel. All that does is allow them to run through 88 players and only get a vague idea of capabilities and possible lines. They won't know if it actually will work in WJC until the actual tournament though.
I think you are missing the point of his post.

Coles notes:
- Russia won on paper (by 3 goals)
- Canadian fans stated that there was a large group (38.9%) of Russian players playing all games to gel. Giving them a better chance to win, since we all know chemistry means a lot in hockey.
- Yakushev72 stated that there was also a core group of Canadians and a few outliers
- I proved that there were not a core group of Canadians across the SSS


This was purely about the SSS, not the WJC hopefuls.

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12-04-2012, 02:37 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Would you agree the at a large majority of the players in SSS will make up the WJC team? I would think that is a pretty safe bet.
No. Yakupov, Kosov, Sigarev, Khoklachev, Grigorenko, Mironov, Dyakov, Naumenkov, Makarov and Vasilevskiy will play in Ufa. The remaining 8 forwards and 7 defenseman are up for grabs.

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