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Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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12-05-2012, 12:32 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
How exactly does Fuhr get ahead of anybody this round?
Well, he could be ahead of Lehman for the reasons I just listed.

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12-05-2012, 12:42 PM
  #127
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Best goalie for a time. That's great. Now how many times was Lehman among the worst goalies in the league?

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12-05-2012, 12:51 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Best goalie for a time. That's great. Now how many times was Lehman among the worst goalies in the league?
Again, being the worst goalie in the PCHA in 1917 is a different story than being the worst goalie in the NHL in 1995. You're talking about drastically different levels of competition here, even if you consider each era to be equally blessed with talent (which I think we just concluded is not the case for the early goalies).

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12-05-2012, 01:08 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
For all I know he'd be fine in the middle... we don't yet know who else will be on the ballot at that point. I just don't see him being top-20...And Holmes isn't close to top-20 status either, so where does that leave us? All we know is that Lehman is somewhere upward of Holmes.
Holmes is in my top 30, which very well could be 25 when all is said and done. I don't think he or Lehman are particularly close to the Winkler/Lindsay/Fowler group you listed. What's the reasoning they are besides they competed against each other, with drastically different resumes?

I also think Lehman and Holmes were a clear step up from the Eastern goalies aside from Vezina/Benedict until Gardiner comes around so I really don't see why they should only be compared against the handful of Western goalies playing at any given time.

Viktor Konovalekno wasn't the end all be all when trying to judge Tretiak.

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It's definitely true that the skaters were better than the goalies in that league. But again, what can we infer from that? If you add the '79 Habs to that league, Lehman doesn't suddenly become a better goalie.
We can infer the man was very good at being a goalie, being regarded as the best goalie in a league full of talented skaters. He's directly competing against them too so it wasn't like he was hiding out West against some mutilated talent pool. I'll post the scoring numbers from the NHA versus PCHA on a yearly basis when I finish compiling them.

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Well, take Fuhr for example. He was probably the best goalie for a time in the 1980s. Even if that was a weak point in modern history, it was a lot more competitive than Lehman's era and he didn't have at least a couple of contemporaries who were clear-cut above him (as in Vezina and Benedict). I can't see how Lehman has a prime edge on Fuhr, and I can't see a longevity edge of any significance, and playoffs are really not close. So how exactly does Lehman get ahead of Fuhr?
He was considered the best goalie by the GMs and PHWA exactly once in the 1980s. I really don't see anything in Fuhr's favor, but the playoffs.

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12-05-2012, 01:38 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Holmes is in my top 30, which very well could be 25 when all is said and done. I don't think he or Lehman are particularly close to the Winkler/Lindsay/Fowler group you listed. What's the reasoning they are besides they competed against each other, with drastically different resumes?
In order for him to be 25th, he'll have to be #1 on the ballot after next. I mean, that could happen, but it doesn't look extremely likely at the moment.

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I also think Lehman and Holmes were a clear step up from the Eastern goalies aside from Vezina/Benedict until Gardiner comes around
Assuming you're not including Worters and Hainsworth in that comment -- if you are, please demonstrate why and we will be just about done here -- then I agree, and I think that's a simple summary of the issue here.

He was a clear step down from the elites of his period (Vezina/Benedict) and a clear step up from the middle-of-the-road Easterners (Connell/Roach/etc) but the problem is figuring out just where the middle-ground of that time period should be valued. Personally I don't look at professional hockey goaltending around 1920 as a period that was extremely deep to the point that being a distant 3rd place is a top-20 all-time kind of achievement.

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so I really don't see why they should only be compared against the handful of Western goalies playing at any given time.
Well, the conversation started with a simple All Star count, and those were earned in exclusive competition against his Western peers. So it made sense to talk about that first before extending the scope of the conversation.

One thing we could do is try and estimate what his AS count would look like in a consolidated NHL. I don't think it would be appreciably different than Worters'.

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We can infer the man was very good at being a goalie, being regarded as the best goalie in a league full of talented skaters. He's directly competing against them too so it wasn't like he was hiding out West against some mutilated talent pool. I'll post the scoring numbers from the NHA versus PCHA on a yearly basis when I finish compiling them.
But we can't infer that he was a good goalie in an all-time sense, just because he competed against talented skaters. I mean, there is absolutely zero question that the skaters in the PCHA were better than the goalies. Say Lehman was the best goalie -- was he the Cyclone Taylor of goalies? Was Heck Fowler the Moose Johnson of goalies? No, not close. Earlier it was posited that the lack of turnover in the NHL during the early 1920s was evidence of a global talent drought, and we saw exactly the same phenomenon illustrated above in the stagnant western rosters. You'll recall that Lehman's having an NHL job in 1928 was cited as evidence of this talent drought. Yet we didn't discuss this same phenomenon when we talked about defensemen and I doubt it will come up against forwards. It's a goalie-exclusive issue, apparently.

So we have a bit of a challenge in determining just how to rank this time period, not at all unlike Fuhr's peer group in the early-mid 1980s which inexplicably lacked a dominant all-time personality at the top. We surely wouldn't consider the third-best goalie of that group (maybe Moog?) to be a top-20 goalie of all time. Now imagine if Moog was considered miles behind #3, as Lehman is to Vezina.


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He was considered the best goalie by the GMs and PHWA exactly once in the 1980s. I really don't see anything in Fuhr's favor, but the playoffs.
Yes, he was considered the best goalie in the world one time, which is a peak that Lehman never reached.

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12-05-2012, 02:20 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Assuming you're not including Worters and Hainsworth in that comment -- if you are, please demonstrate why and we will be just about done here -- then I agree, and I think that's a simple summary of the issue here.

He was a clear step down from the elites of his period (Vezina/Benedict) and a clear step up from the middle-of-the-road Easterners (Connell/Roach/etc) but the problem is figuring out just where the middle-ground of that time period should be valued. Personally I don't look at professional hockey goaltending around 1920 as a period that was extremely deep to the point that being a distant 3rd place is a top-20 all-time kind of achievement.
I had Lehman and Worters as my 1-2 with Hainsworth a bit behind so that's why I mentioned the three I did. The only thing Lehman has over Worters is the fact that he actually did something in the playoffs, but then again the Millionaires were a totally different level than the Pirates and Americans.

Thus far, no one has resolved the difference between Hainsworth's stats and lack of award consideration/praise as far as I'm concerned. The only piece I know in his favor is the fact that the Habs GAA was brutal in the year between Vezina and Hainsworth, but I dug that up last ATD and don't really know what to make of it without more. If you're privvy to why I should check this hypocrisy please let me know - I'm really hoping someone can go to bat for Hainsworth - but it just hasn't happened.

Connell is a borderline 30 guy for me, an Roach is that 40ish range that encompasses so many names. How does a placement around 60 for Lehman jive with a clear step up from those two?

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Well, the conversation started with a simple All Star count, and those were earned in exclusive competition against his Western peers. So it made sense to talk about that first before extending the scope of the conversation.

One thing we could do is try and estimate what his AS count would look like in a consolidated NHL. I don't think it would be appreciably different than Worters'.
Fair enough there, but the part of my post you omitted explains perfectly why I struggle with a narrow-focus on just the goalies in the PCHA.

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But we can't infer that he was a good goalie in an all-time sense, just because he competed against talented skaters. I mean, there is absolutely zero question that the skaters in the PCHA were better than the goalies. Say Lehman was the best goalie -- was he the Cyclone Taylor of goalies? Was Heck Fowler the Moose Johnson of goalies? No, not close. Earlier it was posited that the lack of turnover in the NHL during the early 1920s was evidence of a global talent drought, and we saw exactly the same phenomenon illustrated above in the stagnant western rosters. You'll recall that Lehman's having an NHL job in 1928 was cited as evidence of this talent drought. Yet we didn't discuss this same phenomenon when we talked about defensemen and I doubt it will come up against forwards. It's a goalie-exclusive issue, apparently.
Why do you keep talking about Fowler, Lindsay or Winkler when they're clearly nowhere near Lehman or Holmes? You haven't attempted to show they are either. Will Cyclone Taylor and Mickey MacKay have to answer to Don Smith and Dubby Kerr for the forwards project? I understand what you're trying to say here, but a lack of depth for competition doesn't take away from what the players at the top did accomplish and Lehman had Holmes pushing him for many (most?) of his awards in the PCHA.

Honestly I think Moose is the best way to understand Lehman and Holmes. They were playing in a league where their position wasn't particularly deep, but they were still good enough to be key players on Eastern powerhouses (see Moose Johnon and the Wanderers and Holmes and the Blueshirts). Obviously we don't have example for Lehman as he an OPHL boy but he won a Cup out West and regularly outperformed Holmes so I don't think it's too big of a leap.

Quote:
So we have a bit of a challenge in determining just how to rank this time period, not at all unlike Fuhr's peer group in the early-mid 1980s which inexplicably lacked a dominant all-time personality at the top. We surely wouldn't consider the third-best goalie of that group (maybe Moog?) to be a top-20 goalie of all time. Now imagine if Moog was considered miles behind #3, as Lehman is to Vezina.
I feel this line of thinking only takes us so far. Plante, Hall, and Sawchuk didn't all peak at the same time, but we still gave 3/5 top spots to goalies playing in the same decade. I had Belfour first last round as the third of his generation, so I care about what resume stands out more to me, than maintaining a balancing act.


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Yes, he was considered the best goalie in the world one time, which is a peak that Lehman never reached.
Is it though? I mean yeah in the grand scheme of things he was third behind Vezina and Benedict, but they never directly competed against each other outside of the playoffs so it's hard to pin him down the way you can with other eras.


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12-05-2012, 03:01 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
The only thing Lehman has over Worters is the fact that he actually did something in the playoffs, but then again the Millionaires were a totally different level than the Pirates and Americans.
I agree. The toughest thing about Worters is his team situation, and the effects thereof.

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Thus far, no one has resolved the difference between Hainsworth's stats and lack of award consideration/praise as far as I'm concerned. The only piece I know in his favor is the fact that the Habs GAA was brutal in the year between Vezina and Hainsworth, but I dug that up last ATD and don't really know what to make of it without more. If you're privvy to why I should check this hypocrisy please let me know - I'm really hoping someone can go to bat for Hainsworth - but it just hasn't happened.
When I tried to get my head around Hainsworth's stats in the pre-1950 thread I came away unconvinced that he was a lot more than a good goalie who happened to be on the best team. I'd also kind of like to be given a reason to think otherwise, if there is one.

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Connell is a borderline 30 guy for me, an Roach is that 40ish range that encompasses so many names. How does a placement around 60 for Lehman jive with a clear step up from those two?
I shouldn't have said he was near 60. I wrote that without really thinking about who he'd be up against at that level.


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I understand what you're trying to say here, but a lack of depth for competition doesn't take away from what the players at the top did accomplish and Lehman had Holmes pushing him for many (most?) of his awards in the PCHA.
Yes, but he DIDN'T have anyone pushing him who is likely to go top-30 or maybe top-40 on the list. So the awards recognition he received is a little suspect.

A comparison here might be Cheevers in the WHA. I think he was legitimately a very good goalie at the time, probably underrated in retrospect since he was out of the NHL spotlight. But you can't really bring the Haskin Award (WHA best goalie) up in support of that point, because it's easy enough to point out that he didn't stand a chance against Dryden for a Vezina.

That's why I think two things would really help us here:

1) Go through the seasons and see if there were any years Lehman would have likely contended for NHL All Star status

2) Look closely at 1926 and see how he was regarded when head-to-head with Hainsworth. Both in their actual games against each other, and in general at the end of the season

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Is it though? I mean yeah in the grand scheme of things he was third behind Vezina and Benedict, but they never directly competed against each other outside of the playoffs so it's hard to pin him down the way you can with other eras.
Do you think he's very close to either of them?

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12-05-2012, 05:04 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Best goalie for a time. That's great. Now how many times was Lehman among the worst goalies in the league?
I'm leaning towards Fuhr above fellow dynasty goalies Billy Smith and Gump Worsley. He has a 3 season stretch from 1986-1988 when he was voted a top 3 goalie each year, the only goalie to be a top 3 goalie in that period more than once.

And he was Team Canada's first choice at every best-on-best tournament during the time - 1984 Canada Cup, 1987 Canada Cup, 1987 Rendezvous. That has to be a feather in his cap above Billy Smith, right?

My guess is that Billy Smith vs Grant Fuhr vs Gump Worsley will be a big topic of discussion next week, but we can start talking about it now.


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12-05-2012, 05:09 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
He was a clear step down from the elites of his period (Vezina/Benedict) and a clear step up from the middle-of-the-road Easterners (Connell/Roach/etc) but the problem is figuring out just where the middle-ground of that time period should be valued. Personally I don't look at professional hockey goaltending around 1920 as a period that was extremely deep to the point that being a distant 3rd place is a top-20 all-time kind of achievement.
What's the case that Lehman was a "distant third" behind Benedict and Vezina? I don't see it. I have him a small but clear step behind those two because he had a few rough games in the playoffs, but I don't see a huge gap between Lehman and those two, to be honest. If Lehman hadn't let in a couple of bad goals in the Cup finals (and we didn't seem to punish Tony Esposito for that too much), then he's right up there with Benedict and Vezina, in my opinion.

Quote:
Was Heck Fowler the Moose Johnson of goalies? No, not close.
Isn't Lehman the Moose Johnson of goalies? I actually see the case for Hugh Lehman to on this list to be almost identical to the case for Moose Johnson on the defenseman list, as consistently the best at his position in the PCHA. Differences I can see are that Lehman actually won a Cup over the East while playing for the PCHA, and Moose Johnson won a Cup in the East before going out West - but as a forward.


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12-05-2012, 05:22 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm leaning towards Fuhr above fellow dynasty goalies Billy Smith and Gump Worsley. He has a 3 season stretch from 1986-1988 when he was voted a top 3 goalie each year, the only goalie to be a top 3 goalie in that period more than once.

And he was Team Canada's first choice at every best-on-best tournament during the time - 1984 Canada Cup, 1987 Canada Cup, 1987 Rendezvous. That has to be a feather in his cap above Billy Smith, right?

My guess is that Billy Smith vs Grant Fuhr vs Gump Worsley will be a big topic of discussion next week, but we can start talking about it now.
I don't know. Fuhr has good peak, but his horrible lows scare me. Billy Smith was basically always good. Outside 59-60, same could probably be said about Worsley. But Fuhr alternated between very good and total wreck, and I just don't like it when goalies have long stretches of putrid seasons. But I probably give the sustained low-end performance of a goalie more weight than most do.

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12-05-2012, 05:28 PM
  #136
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Was Billy Smith ever in a prolonged situation where he couldn't look "always good"? Honest question. He never really faced any different circumstances like Fuhr did. Eras and teams change with Fuhr, plus international competition...Smith was a tandem goalie and that goalie always had the best years of his career in the tandem...often statistically outdueling him...too often for me to consider him here.

Smith is going to have a real hard time getting too much credit from me personally. I think Fuhr was comfortably better than him...

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12-05-2012, 05:29 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I don't know. Fuhr has good peak, but his horrible lows scare me. Billy Smith was basically always good. Outside 59-60, same could probably be said about Worsley. But Fuhr alternated between very good and total wreck, and I just don't like it when goalies have long stretches of putrid seasons. But I probably give the sustained low-end performance of a goalie more weight than most do.
Other than 89-90 what seasons was Fuhr "putrid" in his prime?

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12-05-2012, 05:33 PM
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Grant was elected to the hall four yrs after he retired on his 1st try.Many have to wait for their 3rd or 4th try.He was so respected by the voters they ignored his 3.4gaa because they knew the forwards rarely came back.Grant is a legend.Stats are very misleading if one who does not understand system of play or never played the game he or she does not understand.Is he in Hall or Brodeur company maybe not but he is hall of fame caliber.A coach like Bowman who have difficult time coaching a wide open game it drove him crazy.

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12-05-2012, 05:48 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm leaning towards Fuhr above fellow dynasty goalies Billy Smith and Gump Worsley. He has a 3 season stretch from 1986-1988 when he was voted a top 3 goalie each year, the only goalie to be a top 3 goalie in that period more than once.

And he was Team Canada's first choice at every best-on-best tournament during the time - 1984 Canada Cup, 1987 Canada Cup, 1987 Rendezvous. That has to be a feather in his cap above Billy Smith, right?

My guess is that Billy Smith vs Grant Fuhr vs Gump Worsley will be a big topic of discussion next week, but we can start talking about it now.
Agreed, Fuhr was clearly considered the best at the time. He had a lot of practice making the spectacular save in the regular season with the Oilers.

His 403 wins put him 9th all-time. Only Curtis Joseph has more and is not on the list yet. Only Roy and Brodeur have more playoff wins than his 92.

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12-05-2012, 05:54 PM
  #140
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Grant was elected to the hall four yrs after he retired on his 1st try.Many have to wait for their 3rd or 4th try.He was so respected by the voters they ignored his 3.4gaa because they knew the forwards rarely came back.Grant is a legend.Stats are very misleading if one who does not understand system of play or never played the game he or she does not understand.Is he in Hall or Brodeur company maybe not but he is hall of fame caliber.A coach like Bowman who have difficult time coaching a wide open game it drove him crazy.
Every goalie available right now is in the Hockey Hall of Fame (except Holecek who is problematic for the HHOF for the same reason as Boris Mikhailov).

I do think it's somewhat meaningful that Fuhr was a first ballot guy, though. But so was Billy Smith.

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12-05-2012, 05:59 PM
  #141
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I'm fairly new to this site and I find you guys to be very interesting.But yes fuhr and smith were 1st ballot even though their stats are not gretzey type but the voters understood what they meant to their clubs

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12-05-2012, 05:59 PM
  #142
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On that note, anyone have any insight into why Billy Smith wasn't on either the 1981 or 1984 Canada Cup Teams? He won the 1980, 1981, 1982, and 1983 Stanley Cups, so this is right when he was in the middle of his string of clutch playoffs.

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12-05-2012, 06:47 PM
  #143
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Billy Smith

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On that note, anyone have any insight into why Billy Smith wasn't on either the 1981 or 1984 Canada Cup Teams? He won the 1980, 1981, 1982, and 1983 Stanley Cups, so this is right when he was in the middle of his string of clutch playoffs.
Billy Smith was on the 1981 Canada Cup team but DNP:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=811773

Believe he was injured.

1984 was Grant Fuhr. Sather and management wanted goalies who would be content with the back-up role.

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12-05-2012, 06:49 PM
  #144
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Billy Smith was on the 1981 Canada Cup team but DNP:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=811773

Believe he was injured.
To add to this, Smith broke the finger on left hand during one of the Team Canada practices (September 9, 1981).

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/smithb.html

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12-05-2012, 07:07 PM
  #145
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Thanks guys. Still seems strange that Billy Smith, fresh off the 1983 Smythe after his 4th straight Cup win wouldn't have been chosen for the 1984 Canada Cup team.

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12-05-2012, 07:13 PM
  #146
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1984 Canada Cup

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Thanks guys. Still seems strange that Billy Smith, fresh off the 1983 Smythe after his 4th straight Cup win wouldn't have been chosen for the 1984 Canada Cup team.
1984 Canada Cup was after the Oilers won the 1984 SC.

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12-05-2012, 07:23 PM
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Thanks guys. Still seems strange that Billy Smith, fresh off the 1983 Smythe after his 4th straight Cup win wouldn't have been chosen for the 1984 Canada Cup team.
This thread's somewhat relevant for the 1981 Canada Cup:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1154065

I don't remember Smith being "sour" at the Canada Cup experience (although I can't say that I would blame him), but that might explain his absence in 1984.

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12-05-2012, 07:25 PM
  #148
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PCHA vs NHA formative years

Pre-PCHA Years
1910 NHA - Wanderers win regular season, taking Stanley Cup from Ottawa
Stanley Cup Goalie: Riley Hern - Wanderers

Top Goal Scorers: Newsy Lalonde (Renfrew/Candiens), Ernie Russell (Wanderers), Tom Smith (Cobalt), Lester Patrick (Renfrew), Herb Clark (Cobalt), Horace Gaul (Haileybury), Harry Hyland (Wanderers), Steve Vair (Cobalt), Marty Walsh (OTT), Bruce Ridpath (OTT)

1911 NHA - Ottawa wins regular season, taking Stanley Cup from Wanderers
Stanley Cup Goalie: Percy LeSueur - Ottawa

Top Goal Scorers: Marty Walsh (OTT), Dubby Kerr (OTT), Don Smith (Renfrew), Bruce Ridpath (OTT), Odie Cleghorn (Renfrew), Newsy Lalonde (Canadiens), Didier Pitre (Canadiens), Jack Darragh (OTT), Ernie Russell (Wanderers), Pud Glass (Wanderers)


PCHA Forms, 11-12
1912 NHA - Quebec wins regular season, taking Stanley Cup from Ottawa
Stanley Cup Goalie: Paddy Moran - Quebec

Top Goal Scorers: Skene Ronan (OTT), Dubby Kerr (OTT), Didier Pitre (Canadiens), Ernie Russel (Wanderers), Odie Cleghorn (Wanderers), Joe Malone (Quebec), Eddie Oatman (Quebec), Jack McDonald (Quebec), Art Ross (Wanderers), Gord Roberts (Wanderers), Jack Darragh (Ottawa)

1912 PCHA - New Westminster wins regular season; PCHA doesn't challenge for Stanley Cup
Goalie All-Star Team Voting, 1st: Hugh Lehman NW

Top Goal Scorers: Newsy Lalonde (VAN), Harry Hyland (NW), Tom Dunderdale (VIC), Frank Patrick (VAN), Sibby Nichols (VAN), Don Smith (VIC), Tommy Phillips (VAN), Ran McDonald (NW), Ken Mallen (NW), Lester Patrick (VIC), Bobby Rowe (VIC)


12-13
1913 NHA - Quebec wins regular season, retain Stanley Cup
Stanley Cup Goalie: Paddy Moran - Quebec

Top Goal Scorers: Malone (Quebec), Tommy Smith (Quebec), Harry Hyland (Wanderers), Newsy Lalonde (Canadiens), Didier Pitre (Canadien), Frank Nighbor (Blueshirts), Punch Broadbent (OTT), "Scotty" Davidson (Blueshirts), Don Smith (Canadiens), Odie Cleghorn (Wanderers), Jack Darragh (OTT)

1913 PCHA - Victoria wins regular season; PCHA doesn't challenge for Stanley Cup
Goalie AST, 1st: Bert Lindsay VIC

Top Goal Scorers: Tom Dunderdale (VIC), Clark Kendall (VAN), Ran McDonald (NW), Smokey Harris (VAN), Eddie Oatman (NW), Lester Patrick (VIC), Frank Patrick (VAN), Jack McDonald (VAN), Charles Tobin (NW), Cyclone Taylor (VAN)


13-14
1914 NHA - Toronto and Canadiens tie in regular season, Toronto wins playoff; wins Stanley Cup against Victoria 3-0
Stanley Cup Goalie: Hap Holmes - Blueshirts

Top Goal Scorers: Tommy Smith (Quebec), Harry Hylan (Wanderers), Gord Roberts (Wanderers), Jack Mcdonald (Ontarios), Joe Malone (Quebec), "Scotty" Davidson (Blueshirts), Jack Darragh (OTT), Lalonde (Canadiens), Jack Walker (Blueshirts), Don Smith (Canadiens), Skene Ronan (OTT)

1914 PCHA - Victoria wins regular season; loses Stanley Cup to Toronto 0-3
Goalie AST, 1st: Hugh Lehman NW

Top Goal Scorers: Taylor (VAN), Dunderdale (VIC), E. Oatman (NW), Dubbie Kerr (VIC), Ken Mallen (NW), Ran McDonald (NW), Smokey Harris (VAN), Sibby Nichols (VAN), Didier Pitre (VAN), Frank Patrick (VAN)


14-15
1915 NHA - Ottawa and Wanderers tie in regular season, Ottawa wins playoffs; loses Stanley Cup to Vancouver 0-3
Stanley Cup Goalie: Clint Benedict - Ottawa

Top Goal Scorers: Tommy Smith (Quebec/Ontarios), Pitre (Canadiens), Gord Roberts (Wanderers), Punch Broadbent (OTT), Hyland (Wanderers), Cully Wilson (Blueshirts), S. Cleghorn (Wanderers), O. Cleghorn (Wanderers), Skene Ronan (Ontarios), Rusty Crawford (Quebec)

1915 PCHA - Vancouver wins regular season; wins Stanley Cup against Ottawa 3-0
Goalie AST, 1st: Hugh Lehman VAN

Top Goal Scorers (missing data): MacKay (VAN), Taylor (VAN), Dunderdale (VIC), Smokey Harris (POR), Lloyd Cook (VAN)


Last edited by Rob Scuderi: 12-05-2012 at 07:31 PM.
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12-05-2012, 07:40 PM
  #149
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PCHA vs NHA II - Formation of Seattle(Blueshirts) until WCHL

15-16
1916 NHA - Canadiens win regular season; win Stanley Cup against Portland 3-2
Stanley Cup Goalie: Georges Vezina - Canadiens

Top Goal Scorers: Lalonde (Canadiens), Malone (Quebec), Cy Denneny (Blueshirts), Pitre (Canadiens), Duke Keats (Blueshirts), Gord Roberts (Blueshirts), Corb Denneny (Blueshirts), Nighbor (OTT), Rusty Crawford (Quebec), O. Cleghorn (Wanderers), Tommy Smith (Quebec), Jack Darragh (OTT)

1916 PCHA - Portland wins regular season; loses Stanley Cup to Canadiens 2-3
Goalie AST, 1st: Hugh Lehman VAN / 2nd: Hap Holmes SEA

Top Goal Scorers (missing data): Bernie Morris (SEA), Taylor (VAN), Lloyd Cook (VAN), Dunderdale (POR), J. Walker (SEA), MacKay (VAN), Cully Wilson (SEA), Foyston (SEA)


16-17
1917 NHA - Canadiens win playoffs against Ottawa; lose Stanley Cup to Seattle 1-3
Stanley Cup Goalie: Georges Vezina - Canadiens

Top Goal Scorers: Malone (Quebec), Nighbor (OTT), O. Cleghorn (Wanderers), Lalonde (Canadiens), J. Darragh (OTT), Pitre (Canadiens), Corb Denneny (Blueshirts/OTT), Eddie Gerard (OTT), Dave Ritchie (Quebec), Eddie Oatman (TOR 228th)

1917 PCHA - Seattle wins regular season; wins Stanley Cup against Canadiens 3-1
Goalie AST, 1st: Hec Fowler Spokane / 2nd: Hap Holmes SEA

Top Goal Scorers: Gord Roberts (VAN), Bernie Morris (SEA), Frank Foyston (SEA), Dick Irvin (POR), Barney Stanley (VAN), Charles Tobin (POR), Mickey MacKay (VAN), Tom Dunderdale (POR), Smokey Harris (POR), Cyclone Taylor (VAN)


17-18
1918 NHL - Toronto wins playoffs against Canadiens; wins Stanley Cup to Vancouver 3-2
Stanley Cup Goalie: Hap Holmes - Toronto

Top Goal Scorers: Malone (MTL), Cy Denneny (OTT), R. Noble (TOR), Lalonde (MTL), Corb Denneny (TOR), Harry Cameron (TOR), Pitre (MTL), Hyland (OTT), Eddie Gerard (OTT), Alf Skinner (TOR)

1918 PCHA - Seattle wins regular season, Vancouver wins playoffs; loses Stanley Cup to Toronto 2-3
Goalie AST, 1st: Hugh Lehman VAN / 2nd: Hec Fowler SEA

Top Goal Scorers: Taylor (VAN), B. Morris (SEA), Gord Roberts (SEA), T. Dunderdale (POR), C. Tobin (POR), Alf Barbour (POR), B. Stanley (VAN), E. Oatman (POR), M. MacKay (VAN), F. Foyston (SEA)


18-19
1919 NHL - Montreal beats Ottawa in playoffs 4-1; Stanley Cup finals canceled at 2-2 after flu
Stanley Cup Goalie: Georges Vezina - Canadiens

Top Goal Scorers: Lalonde (MTL), O. Cleghorn (MTL), Nighbor (OTT), Cy Denneny (OTT), Pitre (MTL), A. Skinner (TOR), H. Cameron (TOR), J. Darragh (OTT), R. Noble (TOR), Corb Denneny (TOR), Jack McDonald (MTL), Ken Randall (TOR)

1919 PCHA - Vanouver wins regular season, Seattle wins playoffs; Stanley Cup finals canceled at 2-2 after flu
Goalie AST, 1st: Hugh Lehman VAN / 2nd: Hap Holmes SEA

Top Goal Scorers: Taylor (VAN), B. Morris (SEA), Smokey Harris (VAN), Foyston (SEA), Cully Wilson (SEA), E. Oatman (VIC), B. Stanley (VAN), Charlie Tobin (VIC), M. MAcKay (VAN), J. Walker (SEA)


19-20
1920 NHL - Ottawa wins regular season; wins Stanley Cup against Seattle 3-2
Stanley Cup Goalie: Clint Benedict - Ottawa

Top Goal Scorers: Malone (Quebec), Lalonde (MTL), Nighbor (OTT), Corb Denneny (TOR), R. Noble (TOR), J. Darragh (OTT), Amos Arbour (MTL), O. Cleghorn (MTL), Cully Wilson (TOR), Punch Broadbent (OTT)

1920 PCHA - Seattle wins regular season, beats Vancouver in playoffs; loses Stanley Cup to Ottawa 2-3
Goalie AST, 1st: Hugh Lehman VAN / 2nd: Hap Holmes SEA

Top Goal Scorers: T. Dunderdale (VIC), Foyston (SEA), A. Skinner (VAN), Gord Roberts (VAN), Smokey Harris (VAN), Jim Riley (SEA), E. Oatman (VIC), C. Tobin (SEA), Lloyd Cook (VAN), Dubbie Kerr (VIC), Jack Adams (VAN)

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12-06-2012, 07:49 AM
  #150
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
What's the case that Lehman was a "distant third" behind Benedict and Vezina?
In looking over bios to answer that question, I came across this quote of yours, which I think makes a very good case for Lehman as part of a great generation:


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
Typically speaking, discussing the 1910's generation of goalies (Clint Benedict, Hugh Lehman, Georges Vezina and Harry Holmes) have been compared in a zero sum game. If Georges Vezina is close to Clint Benedict, as shown in my bio last year then Benedict must not be a top ten goalie. Which has been shown to be balderdash in vecens' bio this year. So clearly what we should be doing is viewing them as a positive sum game. If Vezina is around the same as Benedict, and Benedict is a top 10 goalie, then Vezina is at least top 15. And if Hugh Lehman is the best of the Western leagues, which were a peer of the Eastern leagues. Then Hugh Lehman is also a top 15 goalie. And if this seems like an oversell, then I look at this fact. Lehman, Benedict, Vezina and Holmes were all elite goalies, arguably the best in the world, for over 10 years, closer to 15. A generation of goalies having that degree of consistent success over a stretch that long happens two other times in history, those being: Sawchuk, Plante, Hall & Worsley and Roy, Hasek, Brodeur & Belfour. The top three from those two generations are almost always rated as the top 6 or 7 goaltenders of all time. So why is the 1910's generation rated so low? They changed the game. Playing low, handling the puck and countless other ways they defined the position. They created a clear gap between haves and have-nots in goalies. So instead of viewing Benedict as an all-time great and his peers somehow not top 20, we should view Benedict, Vezina and Lehman as a generation that is close to Sawchuk, Plante and Hall or Roy, Hasek and Brodeur, and Holmes as a Worsley/Belfour of the generation. I end with a quote reminding us that past generations can be the peers of, or superiors of latter generations, and that that is one of the key tenants of the work we do here.

Looking back over everything that's easily at hand, I see no question that Vezina and Benedict were significantly ahead of Lehman in reputation, but it's absolutely legitimate to question whether team factors and geography (say, being the long-term goalie on a great team in Montreal) had as much to do with those reputations as anything. And typical of the era, there really aren't any objective measurements that don't boil down to team performance. So I'd say it's kind of up in the air whether Lehman was behind the other two, and if so by how much.

If you go purely by reputation, Lehman seems to be the Brodeur of the group. I'd like to do a little better than parroting the common wisdom, but I'm not sure where to look for reliable evidence that would trump the common wisdom.

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