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Phoenix LXVI: Get Your Kicks On Thread LXVI

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Old
12-01-2012, 01:11 PM
  #326
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My take on this:

I just don't see how GJ will be able to turn this franchise around. It hasn't made any money since moving to Arizona. It was better off in Phoenix which the losses was minor.

To those who don't live in Glendale and say they pay stuff for the team, you're nothing more than just customers. Right now the franchise has a proven track record of customers coming and going and that's why the team is in such sad state of affairs it is in today. At the end of the day Glendale Taxpayers will be the ones that suffer when it fails again.

But think about this. The team has had multiple owners including the NHL. If the NHL cannot make a profit with their team in their own league then the market speaks for itself. This is even after 2 great seasons. The Market is too fairweather at this point of time.

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12-01-2012, 01:12 PM
  #327
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Ya, very troubling is that. Even if the city was flush, beyond wealthy, the coffers overflowing, the Arena Management Fee's reasonable where they sit (which there not but lets suspend reality for a moment), how anyone could vote-up a $300M+ expenditure without even knowing who the recipients might be beyond Jamison is jaw dropping. Combined with Scruggs initimations & suggestions that its possible former city employee's could be beneficiaries through sub-leasing & or contracting, then stating for the record that she believes the amounts being approved are nothing short of direct-subsidies, you would think that either the GWI or someone else (and I mean beyond just this new Petition being started up by Ken Jones & Co) would challenge this agreement no?
I am anything but a conspiracy theorist, but there is something very fishy about Jamison's bid. Not naming who the third party on the lease agreement when city council is about to vote on it was absolutely amazing. His befuddled response to Scruggs' thinly veiled accusation that someone recently on the Glendale payroll (had to be Beasley) might be getting some new business out of this was also quite curious. Either he was just daft and truly didn't understand the question (did anyone else have a hard time figuring out what she was asking?), or she caught him with his trousers down.

Another thing that I found interesting was that Jamison repeatedly indicated that he knew that city council had a very difficult decision, and he would understand if they voted down the lease agreement - no hard feelings. The more he said it, the more I wondered "does he actually want them to vote this deal down?"

Time will tell, but Jamison does not give me confident vibes any time I see him.

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12-01-2012, 02:24 PM
  #328
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Agreed. GJ just does not exudes confidence when he speaks. During the meeting. I don't think he knew how the vote will play out with the 'I respect your decision' comments.

Sometimes I wonder if he is really as prepared to close this thing. Hence, the expirity date built into this one.

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12-01-2012, 02:47 PM
  #329
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Agreed. GJ just does not exudes confidence when he speaks. During the meeting. I don't think he knew how the vote will play out with the 'I respect your decision' comments.

Sometimes I wonder if he is really as prepared to close this thing. Hence, the expirity date built into this one.
I think he knew how the vote would play out.

I think he is unsure about the prospects of closing the sale, but that is just reading into how things have played out so far. What is clear is that he and his investors left quite a bit of money on the table by not closing this earlier, so finding investors has not been a walk in the park.

It will be quite a delicious irony if the team ends up being owned by the Indian Band, and the arena ends up being managed by Beasley and Hocking (with Hocking focusing on the parking side of the operation, of course). Joyce Clark can be in charge of the "market development" side of things. Jamison can focus on booking "American Idol" and other such events that are of such great interest to young folks these days.

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12-01-2012, 03:22 PM
  #330
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I think he knew how the vote would play out.

It will be quite a delicious irony if the team ends up being owned by the Indian Band, and the arena ends up being managed by Beasley and Hocking (with Hocking focusing on the parking side of the operation, of course). Joyce Clark can be in charge of the "market development" side of things. Jamison can focus on booking "American Idol" and other such events that are of such great interest to young folks these days.
Sounds good to me.

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12-01-2012, 03:24 PM
  #331
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$320 million worth of business?
You didn't know Legend is heir to the Tanger family fortune? Those ARE his outlet malls. He just lays low and keeps it real. Thats how TheLegend rolls.

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12-01-2012, 03:50 PM
  #332
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Time will tell, but Jamison does not give me confident vibes any time I see him.
...weeks not months?

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12-01-2012, 04:08 PM
  #333
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Ya, very troubling is that. Even if the city was flush, beyond wealthy, the coffers overflowing, the Arena Management Fee's reasonable where they sit (which there not but lets suspend reality for a moment), how anyone could vote-up a $300M+ expenditure without even knowing who the recipients might be beyond Jamison is jaw dropping. Combined with Scruggs initimations & suggestions that its possible former city employee's could be beneficiaries through sub-leasing & or contracting, then stating for the record that she believes the amounts being approved are nothing short of direct-subsidies, you would think that either the GWI or someone else (and I mean beyond just this new Petition being started up by Ken Jones & Co) would challenge this agreement no?
No I don't agree....unless you are saying the current federal, state, and municipal political system should be overhauled. The rules in place are in effect so we have to abide by them or challenge those rules, not the decisions being made under them.

As long as we're suspending reality we might as well do it right and go along with the premise that anyone on this site knows better than the COG what is best for the COG.....and I don't exactly have much faith in the council members of the COG...current or the next version. That said I'd easily put it in their hands ahead of anyone on this site and their selfish desires, myself included.

At this point Scruggs has shown herself to be somewhat like that crazy Grandma we all know and love, while we simultaneously shake our heads at every other thing that comes out of her mouth. GJ has shown he knows when to speak and when not to, which is probably why he has investors who the BOG have approved...which like it or not is all that matters under the current rules. Theoretically, you or I could be one if his investors and why would we want him naming us to anyone other than the BOG if he doesn't have to?

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12-01-2012, 04:45 PM
  #334
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No I don't agree....unless you are saying the current federal, state, and municipal political system should be overhauled. The rules in place are in effect so we have to abide by them or challenge those rules, not the decisions being made under them.

As long as we're suspending reality we might as well do it right and go along with the premise that anyone on this site knows better than the COG what is best for the COG.....and I don't exactly have much faith in the council members of the COG...current or the next version. That said I'd easily put it in their hands ahead of anyone on this site and their selfish desires, myself included.

At this point Scruggs has shown herself to be somewhat like that crazy Grandma we all know and love, while we simultaneously shake our heads at every other thing that comes out of her mouth. GJ has shown he knows when to speak and when not to, which is probably why he has investors who the BOG have approved...which like it or not is all that matters under the current rules. Theoretically, you or I could be one if his investors and why would we want him naming us to anyone other than the BOG if he doesn't have to?

Actually Scruggs comes across as someone who wants to come clean after years of shady dealings, bad deals and string of wannabe sports magnates she's had to deal with the past three years. She will leave office and be able to say I told you so, trouble is she is as much to blame as anyone else in trying to turn Glendale into something it is not.

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12-01-2012, 04:58 PM
  #335
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No I don't agree....unless you are saying the current federal, state, and municipal political system should be overhauled. The rules in place are in effect so we have to abide by them or challenge those rules, not the decisions being made under them.

As long as we're suspending reality we might as well do it right and go along with the premise that anyone on this site knows better than the COG what is best for the COG.....and I don't exactly have much faith in the council members of the COG...current or the next version. That said I'd easily put it in their hands ahead of anyone on this site and their selfish desires, myself included.

At this point Scruggs has shown herself to be somewhat like that crazy Grandma we all know and love, while we simultaneously shake our heads at every other thing that comes out of her mouth. GJ has shown he knows when to speak and when not to, which is probably why he has investors who the BOG have approved...which like it or not is all that matters under the current rules. Theoretically, you or I could be one if his investors and why would we want him naming us to anyone other than the BOG if he doesn't have to?
... ya, excellent points & analogies there DA. Thing is, the NHL is of course a private enterprise, under no obligation to divulge anything at all short of a Court Order however, when dealing with a public entity such as the COG, whereby transparency laws do indeed apply, youd have thunk that at least one of the Gang of Four wouldve kinda wanted to know just who it was exactly that they were committing over $300M to, entrusting much to these nameless/faceless individuals in terms of the cities future & solvency no?

Now, absolutely its entirely up to the duly elected to decide whats right, it is in "their hands" yet again, when its blatantly obvious to anyone who has even casually followed this story that theyve been hoodwinked, entire premise based on bogus numbers provided by Hocking & others, a deal crafted by a City Manager who's integrity may well have been comprised if not completely corrupted in looking out for the cities rather than the prospective buyers and his own interests, then Houston, we have a problem. Systems been hijacked. There are laws, rules governing elected and city officials. Tindalls turned himself into a pretzel, turning those rules on their heads repeatedly, as has every single Council member and the Mayor, the City Managers offices. Some serious malfeasance gone down.

Im one of the few who actually believes this thing can be saved, the building more than viable etc. But not like this. Straight shot right into Court via Challenge and if that amazingly doesnt happen, eventual wrack & ruin for the COG. No way no how do the numbers add up, doesnt make sense, the Arena Management Fee so far over the top as to be completely absurd. I wonder if it doesnt breach the very tenets and basics of Contract Law itself in terms of fairness, never mind the assignation of a contract of such a size to an entity that is refusing to come forward & identify themselves.


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12-01-2012, 05:09 PM
  #336
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If the CoG wants to give $320M to whomever and have them own the team and run the arena, they are more than welcome to do that. And maybe it becomes fruitful and everything works out. What is being said here goes back to the whole problem with governance in the city of Glendale.... total lack of openness and accountability to the taxpayers.

Thsi has nothing to do with hockey, sports, nor what city it is taking place in. An acting gov't in a democracy is insane to give $320M of their taxpayers dollars to an unknown. For all they know they just handed this money over to someone they are currently suing.

Even if the investors in Jamison's group don't want their names out there for public consumption until after the team is sold, Jamison could have held a closed door meeting with the CoG council and at least told them who they are giving all this money to. So then the council could have told the public that they are aware of and O.K. with the new ownership, even if the new owner is a bust, at least the council knew. And don't even think of saying that if the NHL is O.K. with the new ownership then it must be O.K. for Glendale... we all know the NHL's track record for approving ownerships ( IE: if you have a pulse you're in ).

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...7580--nhl.html

As was discussed in Sunnucks' interview on Marek vs. Wyshynski, this is fairly common practice in the private business world. Your company makes a deal with my company, we don't have to tell anyone anything about it. Now, when you're backing up a dump truck full of money and leaving it, with the keys in the ignition, next to the zamboni entrace to Jobing.com Arena, you might, as a city councillor, want to make sure one of the backers isn't the second coming of Boots Del Biaggio, or the third John Spano, if you want to get technical.


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12-01-2012, 05:20 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
If the CoG wants to give $320M to whomever and have them own the team and run the arena, they are more than welcome to do that. And maybe it becomes fruitful and everything works out. What is being said here goes back to the whole problem with governance in the city of Glendale.... total lack of openness and accountability to the taxpayers.

Thsi has nothing to do with hockey, sports, nor what city it is taking place in. An acting gov't in a democracy is insane to give $320M of their taxpayers dollars to an unknown. For all they know they just handed this money over to someone they are currently suing.
I disagree with a few things here. There isn't a lack of accountability to tax payers. Clark lost her seat. I think the reason Frate and Scruggs chose not to run again is because they knew they would lose. Also the meetings were open, we could all watch them from all over North America. Now the taxpayers have the option of signing a petition to put this on the ballot.

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12-01-2012, 05:30 PM
  #338
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If the CoG wants to give $320M to whomever and have them own the team and run the arena, they are more than welcome to do that. And maybe it becomes fruitful and everything works out.
I agree.

That said, I believe we'll still hear from Goldwater Institute soon. When one adds the cost to build the arena with the $50 million extended to the NHL and alongside the $320 million egg management fee, and then compares it to other civic arena deals, it is difficult for anyone to argue that Glendale ever comes out ahead of the game at any point over the life of this deal, nor that they'll receive fair commercial value in return for all of that money spent.

The arena management was never publicly tendered. RED FLAG

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12-01-2012, 05:51 PM
  #339
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The arena management was never publicly tendered. RED FLAG
Well, as weve argued in the past, the purchase of the team and its anchor tenancy is enjoined with the arena management contract, all part n' parcelled up, one package, which permits the COG to forgo the open tender process. Or at least thats their belief, has been & continues to be so. Their entire strategy based on that very premise. Is it legal? Apparently so, because if it wasnt, youd think the GWI wouldve been on it like white on rice by now no? And pretty much since Reinsdorfs, IEH's & Hulsizers failed attempts, all shot down not because the COG failed to follow open tender, but because each of these three were looking to purchase the team using the cities credit facilities and or cash through Bond plays etc. Indeed, Glendale deliberately refrained from opening it up to tender despite calls from Scruggs to do so under instruction from Beasley & I assume Tindall, "jeopardize the delicate negotiations" dontchaknow...

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12-01-2012, 06:00 PM
  #340
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Well, as weve argued in the past, the purchase of the team and its anchor tenancy is enjoined with the arena management contract, all part n' parcelled up, one package, which permits the COG to forgo the open tender process. Or at least thats their belief, has been & continues to be so. Their entire strategy based on that very premise. Is it legal? Apparently so, because if it wasnt, youd think the GWI wouldve been on it like white on rice by now no? And pretty much since Reinsdorfs, IEH's & Hulsizers failed attempts, all shot down not because the COG failed to follow open tender, but because each of these three were looking to purchase the team using the cities credit facilities and or cash through Bond plays etc. Indeed, Glendale deliberately refrained from opening it up to tender despite calls from Scruggs to do so under instruction from Beasley & I assume Tindall, "jeopardize the delicate negotiations" dontchaknow...
Well, opening it up for tender would have kept former Glendale staffers out of the running...

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12-01-2012, 06:06 PM
  #341
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Well, as weve argued in the past, the purchase of the team and its anchor tenancy is enjoined with the arena management contract, all part n' parcelled up, one package, which permits the COG to forgo the open tender process. Or at least thats their belief, has been & continues to be so. Their entire strategy based on that very premise. Is it legal? Apparently so, because if it wasnt, youd think the GWI wouldve been on it like white on rice by now no? And pretty much since Reinsdorfs, IEH's & Hulsizers failed attempts, all shot down not because the COG failed to follow open tender, but because each of these three were looking to purchase the team using the cities credit facilities and or cash through Bond plays etc. Indeed, Glendale deliberately refrained from opening it up to tender despite calls from Scruggs to do so under instruction from Beasley & I assume Tindall, "jeopardize the delicate negotiations" dontchaknow...
Goldwater cannot act until the lease has been fully executed. As such, your entire post is essentially speculative. It could very well yet be challenged on those terms for all either of us know.

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12-02-2012, 11:56 AM
  #342
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I am anything but a conspiracy theorist, but there is something very fishy about Jamison's bid. Not naming who the third party on the lease agreement when city council is about to vote on it was absolutely amazing. His befuddled response to Scruggs' thinly veiled accusation that someone recently on the Glendale payroll (had to be Beasley) might be getting some new business out of this was also quite curious. Either he was just daft and truly didn't understand the question (did anyone else have a hard time figuring out what she was asking?), or she caught him with his trousers down.

Another thing that I found interesting was that Jamison repeatedly indicated that he knew that city council had a very difficult decision, and he would understand if they voted down the lease agreement - no hard feelings. The more he said it, the more I wondered "does he actually want them to vote this deal down?"

Time will tell, but Jamison does not give me confident vibes any time I see him.
His nonchalance is his inability to hide the fact that he is not a real buyer! Time will show that he will not be the owner, only a complete fool would own this money pit, even with the public largesse attached. His language was as you said Whileee, that of a detached suitor who is in the final stretch of his grand deception. A "no " vote Tuesday would have finally exonerated him from any future appearances in front of the board of morons. So as it stands now, he will need to make one more appearance to announce that he will not be purchasing the franchise. Or, he will send some lame e-mail, letter or video validating his pull out! At such a point in time, the COG and its newly elected mayor and Councilors may get on with their business of managing the arena (for far less than $4MM) and in the process saving the city, its workers and citizens the embarrassment of another complete failure. Those blindly deluded into believing this thing could have worked will one by one be committed to the appropriate institutions who are capable of dealing with individuals afflicted with such financial and moral dysfunction!

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12-02-2012, 01:08 PM
  #343
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^ LOL!

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12-02-2012, 02:45 PM
  #344
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...weeks not months?
I think we would all be cheated if JIG wasn't capable of closing. It's going to be spectacular to watch Glendale attempt to manage the fiscal realities that are coming. Tossing the JIG log on the fire really was a wonderful encore performance by the visionaries.

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12-02-2012, 02:57 PM
  #345
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I disagree with a few things here. There isn't a lack of accountability to tax payers. Clark lost her seat. I think the reason Frate and Scruggs chose not to run again is because they knew they would lose. Also the meetings were open, we could all watch them from all over North America. Now the taxpayers have the option of signing a petition to put this on the ballot.
So a lame-duck government making a parting gesture to voters who don't want them and a complete lack of openness in an 'open' meeting is what you consider to be 'accountability'?

It's like Coyotes fans are at the point of being willing to adopt Orwellian contradictions to keep their team.

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12-02-2012, 03:01 PM
  #346
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Does anybody know if the massive subsidies some teams recieve are calculated as HRR?

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12-02-2012, 03:58 PM
  #347
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Does anybody know if the massive subsidies some teams recieve are calculated as HRR?
It depends on how the agreement with the city/county/etc is worded.

The last two $25M agreements with Glendale had terms where the subsidies were explicitly to reimburse operating expenses of the club. Under the old CBA - at least implied by one of the HRR illustrations - that subsidy could be included in HRR. It went to arbitration and the NHL/NHLPA came to an agreement that some portion of the disputed revenues were included in last season's Final HRR Report, but the details of the adjustments, how much, based on what revenues, and why were never released. Under (my reading of) the old CBA, a straight Arena Management Fee - not linked to Club expenses or operating losses - would not have been included in HRR. As to any future CBA - this will have to be explicitly dealt with and clarified in the new CBA.

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12-02-2012, 05:27 PM
  #348
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So a lame-duck government making a parting gesture to voters who don't want them and a complete lack of openness in an 'open' meeting is what you consider to be 'accountability'?

It's like Coyotes fans are at the point of being willing to adopt Orwellian contradictions to keep their team.
I am as anti-Coyotes as the next guy around here, to the point I have been accused of being mean-spirited. However, this drama has played out over the course of 3 years very much out in the open. Knaack and Martinez were reelected in 2010 AFTER voting on the first $25 million. Now the citizens of Glendale have another chance to overturn it. It takes 7000 signatures to stop this thing.

We can hate the outcome all we want but there is a system and its being followed. Its up to the people and thats what democracy is.

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12-02-2012, 06:49 PM
  #349
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I think we would all be cheated if JIG wasn't capable of closing. It's going to be spectacular to watch Glendale attempt to manage the fiscal realities that are coming. Tossing the JIG log on the fire really was a wonderful encore performance by the visionaries.
Oh I agree. I was merely making light of Lil' Gary's prognostications.

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12-03-2012, 09:12 AM
  #350
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Wow this thread died rather quickly...

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