HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Phoenix LXVI: Get Your Kicks On Thread LXVI

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-05-2012, 09:31 PM
  #476
mzappa
Jets fans in space
 
mzappa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,792
vCash: 50
Yet another step on the way towards civil bankruptcy.

Glendale did it to themselves. I have no pity, especially on Clark who with some luck will be brought to justice by the citizens and community she helped ruin.

mzappa is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 11:52 PM
  #477
aqib
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,361
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Glendale still owes $152 million of the $180 million it borrowed to open Jobing.com Arena in 2003. An additional $200 million is owed on Camelback Ranch Glendale, the city’s spring-training ballpark, as payments so far have only covered interest. Glendale staff has predicted the city could save about $28 million by refinancing a portion of its $1.1 billion debt load, easing the way out of a financial landmine. .

So far the CoG has only paid down $28M on the arena, only interest for Camelback ranch, and have a $1.1B debt load..... Sure sounds like a good idea to give Jamison $308M.
Just a couple of things:

1) Had the city taken Ballsille's offer of $50 million and used that money to pay down the arena debt they would be down to $102 million (technically less since more of the debt service the past 3 years would have gone to principal but lets not nitpick)

2) $200 million for a Spring Training Park? Are you farking kidding me?

aqib is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 03:40 AM
  #478
TheLegend
Megathread Refugee
 
TheLegend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Anxiety Closet
Country: United States
Posts: 3,288
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by aqib View Post
Just a couple of things:

1) Had the city taken Ballsille's offer of $50 million and used that money to pay down the arena debt they would be down to $102 million (technically less since more of the debt service the past 3 years would have gone to principal but lets not nitpick)

2) $200 million for a Spring Training Park? Are you farking kidding me?
1) Yes they could have paid down some of the debt. Then be left with near zero mechanisms in place to pay off the rest of it. Hardly a real solution.

2) Major league teams demand all the bells and whistles. And it's not just one field. Camelback Ranch has 13 major league sized fields that require year round maintenance. Click the following link for more details and an aerial photo of the site.

http://web.camelbackranchbaseball.co...lbackranch.jsp

If you look at the photo closely you will see a lot of bare land around the site. This is where the restaurants and hotel(s) were supposed to be built that would have raised income to help pay the debt off. The contractor who was to build them went out of business when the economy tanked and the land is still tied up in BK court. So at this point nothing can be done with it.

TheLegend is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 05:21 AM
  #479
barneyg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,209
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by aqib View Post
I think thats fair to say. What are the Transportation Excise bonds backed by? I think in they haven't factored in the impact of the downgrade.
I would assume that with that name they're backed by Transportation Sales Tax Revenue.

barneyg is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 05:35 AM
  #480
OthmarAmmann
Money making machine
 
OthmarAmmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,542
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
2) Major league teams demand all the bells and whistles. And it's not just one field. Camelback Ranch has 13 major league sized fields that require year round maintenance. Click the following link for more details and an aerial photo of the site.

http://web.camelbackranchbaseball.co...lbackranch.jsp

If you look at the photo closely you will see a lot of bare land around the site. This is where the restaurants and hotel(s) were supposed to be built that would have raised income to help pay the debt off. The contractor who was to build them went out of business when the economy tanked and the land is still tied up in BK court. So at this point nothing can be done with it.
all it's missing is a trash incinerator.

OthmarAmmann is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 05:36 AM
  #481
barneyg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,209
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
all it's missing is a trash incinerator.
haha, somehow I knew Harrisburg was bound to resurface in this thread at some point.

barneyg is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 06:29 AM
  #482
GF
Registered User
 
GF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 412
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
haha, somehow I knew Harrisburg was bound to resurface in this thread at some point.
It does sound a lot like Clarkonomics, I have to admit.

GF is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 06:34 AM
  #483
GF
Registered User
 
GF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 412
vCash: 500
[QUOTE]He's giving me a tour of the town, known mainly these days for having more debt per resident than any other city in the country./QUOTE]

I wonder where Glendale residents fits in this ranking. Anyone knows?

GF is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 06:47 AM
  #484
OthmarAmmann
Money making machine
 
OthmarAmmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,542
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GF View Post
Quote:
He's giving me a tour of the town, known mainly these days for having more debt per resident than any other city in the country.
I wonder where Glendale residents fits in this ranking. Anyone knows?
Don't know the ranking, but Glendale is much less. Harrisberg is approx $30,000 per resident and Glendale is approx $6,500 per resident. Debt to GDP is probably a better measure.

Glendale is not at imminent risk of default, but it has pissed away all its financial flexibility and will struggle for at least the next ten years.

OthmarAmmann is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 06:59 AM
  #485
GuelphStormer
Registered User
 
GuelphStormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Guelph, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,718
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
1) Yes they could have paid down some of the debt. Then be left with near zero mechanisms in place to pay off the rest of it. Hardly a real solution.
oh come on, not this "if the yotes leave, we'll be forced to board up the arena" routine again. you know that's just not true.

sure, hindsite is 20/20 and i can understand why glendale turned down balsillie's offer at that time - they presumed they could make more money if the team stayed. but that simply hasnt turned out to be the case and its now beyond dispute - the city of glendale would have been MUCH better off had it cut its losses, supported ballsillie's bid, taken his $50M, saved itself another $50M (or is it $45M or maybe even just $25M?, who knows) these past two years, and not gotten involved with an insane plan to spend another $300M and be forced to lay off firefighters and close libraries.

you even blame the nhl for not bringing in more non-hockey events these past three years. surely even you can admit that a proper arena management company will achieve a lot more revenue than the "near zero mechanisms in place to pay off the rest of [the arena debt]" you suggest.

GuelphStormer is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 07:00 AM
  #486
TheLegend
Megathread Refugee
 
TheLegend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Anxiety Closet
Country: United States
Posts: 3,288
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
all it's missing is a trash incinerator.
They would have to ask Phoenix for one since the site sits within their city limits and not Glendale's.


TheLegend is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 07:06 AM
  #487
TheLegend
Megathread Refugee
 
TheLegend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Anxiety Closet
Country: United States
Posts: 3,288
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
oh come on, not this "if the yotes leave, we'll be forced to board up the arena" routine again. you know that's just not true.

I never suggested that and you know it.

The facts are a large portion of their payments on the bonds comes from the surcharge on ticket sales (for all arena events) and the rent payments. Couple that with loss of traffic to the businesses adjacent to the arena and they really aren't left with much. Tanger will offset some of it, but it won't make up for it.

The facts are the NHL is responsible for managing the arena. That includes filling other dates with non-hockey events. Even THEY have admitted they aren't good at it.

Try again....

TheLegend is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 07:28 AM
  #488
CGG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 416
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,220
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
1) Yes they could have paid down some of the debt. Then be left with near zero mechanisms in place to pay off the rest of it. Hardly a real solution.
This is hogwash and you know it. The paltry amounts of money the city gets from ticket surcharges on the Yotes and rent payments are nowhere near enough to even come close to paying off the debt on the arena. Knocking $50 million off the debt would have been a far more sensible decision than banking on the $2 or $3 million a year from arena revenues the Coyotes provided. Simple NPV calcs would prove it. Would you rather have $50 million now or $3 million a year for the next 20 years? Reducing the debt by $50 million likely would have reduced the annual interest payments by more than the ticket surcharges and rent payments the city was getting from the Coyotes.

But that's a secondary point. By the time Glendale made the decision to ignore the $50 million from Balsillie, the team was bankrupt. The lease was on its way to being scrapped. They knew even before the bankruptcy that the team was going to require some kind of subsidy from the city or else they'd leave. It's very well documented that Moyes was asking for money and Beasley promised he could deliver up to $20 million a year (without council approval I might add), although he only seemed willing to do so for Reinsdorf, not Moyes.

So they really weren't deciding to forego the $50 million to preserve the ticket surcharges and rent payments from a broken lease, they decided to give up the $50 million and basically agreed to an ongoing subsidy to the team owner that would be somewhere in the range of $10 million or more each year, in order to preserve the paltry amounts from the ticket surcharges and rent payments.

The tiny amounts of revenue they were getting from rent and ticket surcharges were always going to be dwarfed by the amount the city would have to spend to subsidize the owner. They were not making a prudent decision to maintain a revenue stream to help pay the debt. This was always going to sink them further in debt.

Great, so now they have "more mechanisms" to pay down the debt, assuming the Coyotes do stay. But they're $100 million more in debt already ($50 mil from Balsillie plus the $50 million they paid the NHL for 2 years) and they're signed up to pay $15 million a year on average for the AMF, but don't worry, they have preserved this "mechanism" that might net them about $2.5 million a year. To help pay down the debt. Which has grown exponentially since they refused $50 million to pay down the debt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
2) Major league teams demand all the bells and whistles. And it's not just one field. Camelback Ranch has 13 major league sized fields that require year round maintenance. Click the following link for more details and an aerial photo of the site.

http://web.camelbackranchbaseball.co...lbackranch.jsp

If you look at the photo closely you will see a lot of bare land around the site. This is where the restaurants and hotel(s) were supposed to be built that would have raised income to help pay the debt off. The contractor who was to build them went out of business when the economy tanked and the land is still tied up in BK court. So at this point nothing can be done with it.
Hmmmm. Lots of parking around those ball diamonds. Those parking rights must be worth a fortune. Perhaps that's the ticket out of this mess - Glendale can purchase the parking rights to Camelback Ranch from themselves for $100 million. Probelm solved.

CGG is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 07:43 AM
  #489
cbcwpg
Registered User
 
cbcwpg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Between the Pipes
Country: United Nations
Posts: 5,733
vCash: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
Tanger will offset some of it, but it won't make up for it.
This is where we disagree.

Coyotes bring: 500,000 people to Westgate every year

Tanger brings (est.): 5,000,000 people to Westgate every year

Of the 500,000 people attending Coyotes games, the majority of them will NOT be spending money at Westgate. Of course some will, but after buying tickets, paying for parking, and knowing they are going to buy munchies and some pops at the game, most are not spending money at Westgate.

Of the 5,000,000 people attending Tanger, well, these people are not coming just to hang out, they are shoppers spending money. And even those that do just hang out and sit around and text all day long, will eat or drink something.

IIRC the CoG themselves were estimating that the revenue they will get from Tangers will be the same as the revenue they are getting from the Coyotes. So it's a wash. IMO though, shoppers are going to spend more and generate more revenue for the city than those going to hockey games.

cbcwpg is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 07:46 AM
  #490
powerstuck
User Registered
 
powerstuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Quebec City
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,350
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Hmmmm. Lots of parking around those ball diamonds. Those parking rights must be worth a fortune. Perhaps that's the ticket out of this mess - Glendale can purchase the parking rights to Camelback Ranch from themselves for $100 million. Probelm solved.
Speaking of parking.

And honestly this is not an attack on the fan base or posters from AZ or elsewhere.

Upon looking information about Westgate, I saw an ad that they are selling parking for Cardinals games for $10.

To me, that seems cheap, like very. I've been to many sports events across US and Canada, and the cheapest parking I remember paying, THAT close to the venue is somewhere around 25$.

Is there some general rules in Glendale that says let's make everything pretty cheap so it costs us more than it generates in revenues or what ?

I still remember my first ever trip to Daytona 500, for Friday's truck race, the parking at the mall across the street was $5, Saturday's race, the parking was $15 and for Sunday's race it was $120 and you had police officers making sure you don't park your ride there pretending to go shopping.

powerstuck is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 08:27 AM
  #491
GuelphStormer
Registered User
 
GuelphStormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Guelph, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,718
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
I never suggested that and you know it.

The facts are a large portion of their payments on the bonds comes from the surcharge on ticket sales (for all arena events) and the rent payments. Couple that with loss of traffic to the businesses adjacent to the arena and they really aren't left with much. Tanger will offset some of it, but it won't make up for it.

The facts are the NHL is responsible for managing the arena. That includes filling other dates with non-hockey events. Even THEY have admitted they aren't good at it.

Try again....
seriously?

that's exactly what you said. no mechanism to pay back the debt = boarding up the arena. that was the argument three years ago. can you actually sit there with a straight face and tell me that the forfeited $50M is less than the revenues derived from ticket surcharges and rent? and then add in the direct subsidies of $25M two years ago and whatever it turns out to be from last year?

seriously?

people here talk about a $100M swing ($50m balsillie forfeiture, plus $50 AMF). that's not really an exaggeration. as CGG notes, the revenues from ticket surcharges, team rental fees, and even spin-off local sales tax revenues (however hockified you wish them to be) are dwarfed by the expenses incurred to keep the team in place and thus realize them.


GuelphStormer is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 08:39 AM
  #492
CasualFan
Tortious Beadicus
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bay Area, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,123
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
The facts are a large portion of their payments on the bonds comes from the surcharge on ticket sales (for all arena events) and the rent payments.
Really? According to the city documents the surcharge, rent, and naming rights are used to offset the JIG AMF, not the bond payments: http://www.glendaleaz.com/documents/...obingArena.pdf (See page 4)

You might want to hold off on stating things as facts until you actually know what you're talking about. But I like that you signed off with "try again". That made me laugh.

CasualFan is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 08:49 AM
  #493
Whileee
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 7,738
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post
Really? According to the city documents the surcharge, rent, and naming rights are used to offset the JIG AMF, not the bond payments: http://www.glendaleaz.com/documents/...obingArena.pdf (See page 4)

You might want to hold off on stating things as facts until you actually know what you're talking about. But I like that you signed off with "try again". That made me laugh.
I continue to be amazed that some folks still maintain that the revenues from the Coyotes deal (ticket surcharges, etc.) are crucial to pay down the arena debt, when every single financial analysis has shown that the cost of the AMF dwarfs the revenues. That is the reason that keeping the Coyotes will force the COG to cut more staff and services than they would otherwise, without the Jamison lease. It is the increased sales tax, combined with overall cuts to staff and services which is paying for both the arena debt and the AMF.

But I suppose that the extra few businesses at Westgate will put it all to right. That is "Clarkonomics", pure and simple. But, to be fair to Clark, it started much earlier with Beasley's schemes to establish a CFD around Westgate that would generate $25 million annually to subsidize the Coyotes. Given what is now known about the actual financial realities, the whole CFD fiasco is perhaps one of the biggest howlers perpetrated on the dimwits at Glendale city council. Reinsdorf almost got away with calling them on it. His plan was to take as much as he could from the COG, and then when the CFD failed to pay the subsidies he could have packed up and taken the team elsewhere.

Those were the good old days, when a city manager could simply raid various funds to pay for the Coyotes operating losses, etc.

Whileee is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 09:17 AM
  #494
saskganesh
Registered User
 
saskganesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: the Annex
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,043
vCash: 500
In the "good" old days, the ticket surcharge was evidence that the Coyotes operated under an unfair lease, and was a big reason why they were not profitable.

wow.

saskganesh is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 09:36 AM
  #495
CGG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 416
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,220
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by saskganesh View Post
In the "good" old days, the ticket surcharge was evidence that the Coyotes operated under an unfair lease, and was a big reason why they were not profitable.

wow.
Don't forget, Moyes leasing office space from himself and overcharging for airfare were other main reasons why the team lost $30 million a season.

Now that those things have been corrected I'm shocked to see they're still losing money.

CGG is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 10:34 AM
  #496
GuelphStormer
Registered User
 
GuelphStormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Guelph, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,718
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Don't forget, Moyes leasing office space from himself and overcharging for airfare were other main reasons why the team lost $30 million a season.

Now that those things have been corrected I'm shocked to see they're still losing money.
oh, and the nerve of gretzky - arguably the greatest player to lace up skates and the only reason anyone in the desert cares about ice hockey - to pay himself a big fat salary. and then - gasp - hire his brother!

GuelphStormer is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 11:06 AM
  #497
hyduK
Registered User
 
hyduK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,031
vCash: 500
just move this team already. christ.

hyduK is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 11:38 AM
  #498
cheswick
Non-registered User
 
cheswick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Peg City
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,899
vCash: 574
Quote:
Originally Posted by powerstuck View Post
Speaking of parking.

And honestly this is not an attack on the fan base or posters from AZ or elsewhere.

Upon looking information about Westgate, I saw an ad that they are selling parking for Cardinals games for $10.

To me, that seems cheap, like very. I've been to many sports events across US and Canada, and the cheapest parking I remember paying, THAT close to the venue is somewhere around 25$.

Is there some general rules in Glendale that says let's make everything pretty cheap so it costs us more than it generates in revenues or what ?

I still remember my first ever trip to Daytona 500, for Friday's truck race, the parking at the mall across the street was $5, Saturday's race, the parking was $15 and for Sunday's race it was $120 and you had police officers making sure you don't park your ride there pretending to go shopping.
Pricing for parking is charged to maximize profit. If there is a large supply of parking based on the demand for parkign the price will be lower then if the demand for parking exceeds the supply. You can get parking to Winnipeg Jets games for $10 because it's a downtown arena. And as full as it is, the amount of people going downtown for a Jets game is less than the people who drive downtown everyday for work. So there is an ample supply of parking in downtown Winnipeg in the evening.

cheswick is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 11:53 AM
  #499
Halibut
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,019
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyduK View Post
just move this team already. christ.
I dont think they cant though. I think the league gave guarantees when the arena was built and financed and if they simply tried to move the team they'd be facing big lawsuits. I could be wrong but it sure seems like there is more to the league keeping a team in Glendale than just wanting to hold on to the market. I think they've got to show they've tried everything to keep the team there so if it comes to moving the team they have an argument to make in court.

Halibut is offline  
Old
12-06-2012, 11:56 AM
  #500
hyduK
Registered User
 
hyduK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,031
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halibut View Post
I dont think they cant though. I think the league gave guarantees when the arena was built and financed and if they simply tried to move the team they'd be facing big lawsuits. I could be wrong but it sure seems like there is more to the league keeping a team in Glendale than just wanting to hold on to the market. I think they've got to show they've tried everything to keep the team there so if it comes to moving the team they have an argument to make in court.
Fair enough. I admittedly haven't been following too closely and don't know the legalities. But this makes sense.

hyduK is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:14 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.