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Phoenix LXVI: Get Your Kicks On Thread LXVI

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Old
12-07-2012, 05:57 AM
  #526
Confucius
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
To the best of my knowledge aqib, that decision wasnt Legends
to make, nor do I believe he was even consulted on the matter....

savvy?
Call it a gut feeling but I think he would have been or was against the Balsillie deal.
Savvy?

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12-07-2012, 07:31 AM
  #527
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I'm thinking that this represents just about the ideal time for the league to contract the Phoenix Coyotes franchise. They could then follow by contracting a few others, and eventually replace them down the line with expansion teams located elsewhere.

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12-07-2012, 07:33 AM
  #528
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I'm thinking that this represents just about the ideal time for the league to contract the Phoenix Coyotes franchise. They could then follow by contracting a few others, and eventually replace them down the line with expansion teams located elsewhere.
That's alot of cash for the remaining owners to eat. Even though it may be temporary. We all know how temporary things can drag out.

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12-07-2012, 07:40 AM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
That's alot of cash for the remaining owners to eat. Even though it may be temporary. We all know how temporary things can drag out.
Yes, well, Phoenix already eats a lot of their cash, annually. Contraction of the Coyotes could be accomplished while at the same time privately brokering an understanding with PKP (for example) for an expansion franchise to be granted in the year 201X at a fixed cost of Y.

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12-07-2012, 08:33 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
To the best of my knowledge aqib, that decision wasnt Legends
to make, nor do I believe he was even consulted on the matter....
It was definitely a decision by the Visionaries, not anyone on our internet forum. It was Tindall and the consultants and outside counsel that failed to protect the specific performance from the Moyes lease.

I was enjoying the irony of Legend saying: "Then be left with near zero mechanisms in place to pay off the rest of it. Hardly a real solution" as the JIG lease leaves zero mechanisms in place to pay off the arena debt. Er go, for Legend's opinion to be consistent, he would declare that the JIG lease is hardly a real solution.

Actually, the JIG lease doesn't even offer a bulk $50MM payment on the arena debt the way Balsillie did. Plus, the JIG lease also introduces the new AMF debt load. What's two steps below "hardly a real solution"?

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12-07-2012, 09:02 AM
  #531
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post

But I'll put the question forward, how is Glendale any better off paying off the arena debt if the number of income streams gets reduced??
Because they free up $15 million a year from their budget going forward with the removal of the ridiculous Arena Management Fee subsidy. Use a portion of that $15 million a year in savings to fund the arena debt.

I don't really think you are making the Joyce Clark argument that Glendale is truly better off in the short term or long term under the JIG option than the relocation option, are you?

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12-07-2012, 09:15 AM
  #532
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Because they free up $15 million a year from their budget going forward with the removal of the ridiculous Arena Management Fee subsidy. Use a portion of that $15 million a year in savings to fund the arena debt.
I don't really think you are making the Joyce Clark argument that Glendale is truly better off in the short term or long term under the JIG option than the relocation option, are you?
And it could be a very substantial portion.

The CoG has to pay someone to run the arena and lets use the number the CoG claims of $6M.

The CoG is willing to give Jamison ~$15M per year, so take the difference and put it directly to the Arena. I know this doesn't help the problem the CoG faces with cuts etc. but it would sure take the arena off the books quicker.

In 9 years the CoG has paid off $28M of arena debt. ( ~$3M / yr ) . Putting $9M towards this, it's gone a lot quicker.


Last edited by cbcwpg: 12-07-2012 at 09:24 AM.
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12-07-2012, 09:24 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
So..... you feel an ESTIMATED number makes a better argument against a KNOWN one???

You have mocked CoG estimates in the past yet now you use them as a basis to make a point???

IOW..... you're guessing.... but then again that's just my opinion.
I'm not mocking anyone. Let's say Tanger only pulls in 3,000,000 people a year or maybe they do really well and have 5,999,999 visitors ( not counting myself the next time I visit and yes I have spent money in Glendale ). Regardless of what the final numbers are: The point I'm making isn't a negative one. I believe Tangers is a great thing for Glendale as it allows all people to spend money and put more into the CoG coffers than hockey fans will. Without the mall, sure Glendale would have been worse off if the team leaves, but by having the mall they have made up the difference. Which is a good thing for the city.

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12-07-2012, 09:29 AM
  #534
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Why should what's happening in Phoenix really even matter, as long as there's no hockey happening anyway?

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12-07-2012, 11:00 AM
  #535
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Call it a gut feeling but I think he would have been or was against the Balsillie deal.... Savvy?
... yepp. Savvy. And no, cant speak for the op, but I rather doubt he or any other hockey fan in Az wouldve been willing to have accepted Balsillies largesse'.

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Why should what's happening in Phoenix really even matter, as long as there's no hockey happening anyway?
I dont understand your comment/question. It "matters" on a number of levels, Lockout or no Lockout. Just because the season's a complete wash out to date doesnt stop the sale process, the triangulations of Glendales City Council, Jamison & the NHL on this file. The Lockout simply adds yet another layer to the already deep strata's of confusing substructures & plots. Another fault line that may indeed precipitate a final quake, the franchise being evacuated before the earth underneath it completely craters.

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12-07-2012, 11:19 AM
  #536
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Why should what's happening in Phoenix really even matter, as long as there's no hockey happening anyway?
Because it's the Business of Hockey board and it's very much a business issue related to a hockey team? Come on MoreOrr, you've been around this board for a while, you know we don't really care whether hockey is actually played or not

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12-07-2012, 11:31 AM
  #537
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Because it's the Business of Hockey... we don't really care whether hockey is actually played or not
Bingo. What goes on in the boardrooms & council chambers of
really any given city is just as fascinating as what goes on on the ice.

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12-07-2012, 01:26 PM
  #538
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http://www.azcentral.com/community/g...s-success.html

Prospective Phoenix Coyotes buyer Greg Jamison isn’t offering any gimmicks or promises of dramatic change. Rather, the California businessman says he plans to nail the basics to turn the hockey franchise around. He said he aims to get the team in position to compete for the Stanley Cup each year and someday get the ultimate prize.

Some question whether the Coyotes can ever be profitable. He said the Coyotes already have a solid starting point, with fans beyond Canadian snowbirds or winter transplants.

“There’s a good foundation now of NHL and hockey fans, and we just need to add to that,” Jamison said, noting the need to continue to develop youth and adult hockey leagues to eventually make hockey part of the community fabric.

He compared it to Jerry Colangelo’s success in developing the Phoenix Suns, which began playing in 1968 as an expansion team, as the Valley’s first professional sports team.

“With some hard work and some luck, that’s where we want to be,” he said.

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12-07-2012, 02:16 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
http://www.azcentral.com/community/g...s-success.html

Prospective Phoenix Coyotes buyer Greg Jamison isn’t offering any gimmicks or promises of dramatic change. Rather, the California businessman says he plans to nail the basics to turn the hockey franchise around. He said he aims to get the team in position to compete for the Stanley Cup each year and someday get the ultimate prize.

Some question whether the Coyotes can ever be profitable. He said the Coyotes already have a solid starting point, with fans beyond Canadian snowbirds or winter transplants.

“There’s a good foundation now of NHL and hockey fans, and we just need to add to that,” Jamison said, noting the need to continue to develop youth and adult hockey leagues to eventually make hockey part of the community fabric.

He compared it to Jerry Colangelo’s success in developing the Phoenix Suns, which began playing in 1968 as an expansion team, as the Valley’s first professional sports team.

“With some hard work and some luck, that’s where we want to be,” he said.

Isn't that what they have been doing the past couple of years? Yest still, no one showed until the playoffs and tickets prices were still in the tank.

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12-07-2012, 03:36 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post
They're not better off if the income streams get reduced.

But that's exactly what the JIG lease does. It's what makes the whole situation so comical. The city is reducing the income streams that were supposed to pay off the arena debt by diverting them to cover a portion of the JIG AMF. And that's the punchline: Glendale diverts all those revenues but it's not even close to enough to cover the AMF. There's nothing left to pay off the arena debt and there's not enough revenue to pay the JIG AMF. It really is spectacular.

Anyway, I didn't mean to deny you credit and I enjoy reading your posts. I hope you read this as amicable, which is the way it's intended. I just think you might have got a little outside yourself here. Unless you meant to answer your question by saying that the JIG lease puts Glendale in the worst possible position because not only does it reduce the number of income streams that pay off the arena debt - but it also creates even more debt.

I guess you could say that is the thesis statement of Clarkonomics: I pay my existing debt by creating more debt.

It is so brilliantly stupid that I feel humbled every time I hear someone vehemently defending the economics of the JIG lease. If you are a believer in dualism, Glendale provides proof of absolute enlightenment because they have demonstrated absolute incomprehension. Other cities have done similar things but Glendale really is special.

From the city's perspective, if they just held the line at a $5MM or $6MM JIG subsidy, then it's a workable deal for them. Not great but workable. It would still have some really bad components such as the affiliate subleasing, giving away the parking rights and, as Othmar commonly and astutely points out, the city indemnifies JIG against their own failure to act with the low penalty rate for not booking non-hockey events; and they give JIG a put on the arena so if by some miracle it does make money, JIG cashes in on it instead of the city. But I digress, at $5MM or $6MM it might be possible to make a case to support approving the JIG lease.

If the team were not there, the city would have an arena debt problem. With the JIG lease, the city has that exact same arena debt problem *plus* they created a whole new JIG AMF debt problem of roughly $8MM per year. Also, without the team, they would at least introduce the potential to create revenue with the arena. Instead they went with the plan that guarantees them 20 years of unfunded arena debt plus introduces a new underfunded AMF debt load.

Visionaries.
Appreciate the post CF. I wasn't very clear explaining my original point in response to the "what if Glendale had taken Balsillie's offer." question.

Back during that time when Balsillie made his offers to Glendale, I believe the solution to this (Glendale's) saga being offered was a special taxing district. Since then it seems the solution has gone from buying parking rights already owned to a high arena management fee. I was referring to the choices Glendale had back when Balsillie made his offer. Not with the current situation.

That said.... I realize Glendale's will be increasing their debt load. And that Glendale is gambling heavily that Jamison can increase the traffic to Westgate (and the arena) to offset it.

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12-07-2012, 03:41 PM
  #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
To the best of my knowledge aqib, that decision wasnt Legends
to make, nor do I believe he was even consulted on the matter....

savvy?
I don't even get consulted on how my wife spends my paycheck.

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12-07-2012, 04:55 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
http://www.azcentral.com/community/g...s-success.html

Prospective Phoenix Coyotes buyer Greg Jamison isn’t offering any gimmicks or promises of dramatic change. Rather, the California businessman says he plans to nail the basics to turn the hockey franchise around. He said he aims to get the team in position to compete for the Stanley Cup each year and someday get the ultimate prize.

Some question whether the Coyotes can ever be profitable. He said the Coyotes already have a solid starting point, with fans beyond Canadian snowbirds or winter transplants.

“There’s a good foundation now of NHL and hockey fans, and we just need to add to that,” Jamison said, noting the need to continue to develop youth and adult hockey leagues to eventually make hockey part of the community fabric.

He compared it to Jerry Colangelo’s success in developing the Phoenix Suns, which began playing in 1968 as an expansion team, as the Valley’s first professional sports team.

“With some hard work and some luck, that’s where we want to be,” he said.
Hopefully he can purchase the team and help make phoenix into a hockey town. Well if there is ever an end to the lock-out

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12-07-2012, 06:02 PM
  #543
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Originally Posted by atomic View Post
Hopefully he can purchase the team and help make phoenix into a hockey town. Well if there is ever an end to the lock-out
Always good to have dreams, and I hope so for Yotes fans, but a long way to go...

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12-07-2012, 06:38 PM
  #544
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Originally Posted by atomic View Post
Hopefully he can purchase the team and help make phoenix into a hockey town.
That reminds me... I hope I win LottoMAX tonight.

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12-07-2012, 07:44 PM
  #545
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Appreciate the post CF. I wasn't very clear explaining my original point in response to the "what if Glendale had taken Balsillie's offer." question.

Back during that time when Balsillie made his offers to Glendale, I believe the solution to this (Glendale's) saga being offered was a special taxing district. Since then it seems the solution has gone from buying parking rights already owned to a high arena management fee. I was referring to the choices Glendale had back when Balsillie made his offer. Not with the current situation.

That said.... I realize Glendale's will be increasing their debt load. And that Glendale is gambling heavily that Jamison can increase the traffic to Westgate (and the arena) to offset it.
Yeah, I'm generalizing from the governance perspective so my post isn't as clear as it could be either. It's just amazing to watch a municipality gambling at a table that has 0% odds. But that's just one perspective. There are a bunch of other things to consider. I should spend more time generalizing from an NHL perspective. They've navigated the situation incredibly well. Considering Moyes came to them in Fall 2009 requesting revenue advances to cover payroll, the NHL made roses out of this. The league escaped the specific performance clause in the lease with no buyout; left all cure costs with Moyes entity; got $50MM from Glendale; had two playoff seasons of revenue on a skeleton budget, including a 3 round appearance; steered a large scale subsidy to a potential owner; and sued Moyes and his wife in their personal capacity. That is a pretty fair job of maximizing the asset potential. I appreciate the skill involved.

But I tend to post more about the rather gullible administration at COG. They are chacacters. Its like they should be filming a sitcom.

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12-07-2012, 08:39 PM
  #546
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They've navigated the situation incredibly well. Considering Moyes came to them in Fall 2009 requesting revenue advances to cover payroll, the NHL made roses out of this...
I think youve lost a year there Councillor, and perfectly understandable. That'd be Fall 2008. The NHL's owned this franchise since Fall 2009.... as for the "roses" bit, ya, I guess so eh? $50M in AMF's without having to perform short of the Coyotes dates at the job. And of course far from being a motivated vendor, honouring their covenants with the COG, the fans & the State in facilitating a local sale, simply curbed the wreck, installed one of those LED readout number signs used to track deficits in the window and sat back watching the price going up & up & up & up &......

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12-07-2012, 08:53 PM
  #547
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I think youve lost a year there Councillor, and perfectly understandable. That'd be Fall 2008.
Yes indeed, my mistake. The years have started to blend together, my friend.

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12-07-2012, 09:16 PM
  #548
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Yes indeed, my mistake. The years have started to blend together, my friend.
Hey this saga is 4 years old tomorrow. Happy Birthday

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12-07-2012, 09:18 PM
  #549
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Hopefully he can purchase the team and help make phoenix into a hockey town. Well if there is ever an end to the lock-out
Playoff games we filled the arena, there is a market here if there is someone in charge that cares and tries to get it working. Suns have been a big competition, but they are rebuilding and they suck, so if hockey starts up, it could be good for the Coyotes.

I'm not saying we can sell out every night. I'd like to, but the arena is in a bad spot. But I have a problem with people saying there are no fans in Phoenix, etc. I can't tell you how many times I show up for a Coyotes game and see fans of the opposing team. Hell, my old boss was a die hard Red Wings fan and would only show up when the Red Wings were in town.

I think with GJ, he can find a way to get these fans of other teams, or just "fair weather fans" to show up to games regularly. There are so many Canadians and fans of other hockey teams to say there is no market down here is a joke. The people that aren't here won't see that, but I live here and do see it.

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12-07-2012, 09:21 PM
  #550
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Playoff games we filled the arena, there is a market here if there is someone in charge that cares and tries to get it working. Suns have been a big competition, but they are rebuilding and they suck, so if hockey starts up, it could be good for the Coyotes.

I'm not saying we can sell out every night. I'd like to, but the arena is in a bad spot. But I have a problem with people saying there are no fans in Phoenix, etc. I can't tell you how many times I show up for a Coyotes game and see fans of the opposing team. Hell, my old boss was a die hard Red Wings fan and would only show up when the Red Wings were in town.

I think with GJ, he can find a way to get these fans of other teams, or just "fair weather fans" to show up to games regularly. There are so many Canadians and fans of other hockey teams to say there is no market down here is a joke. The people that aren't here won't see that, but I live here and do see it.
But do they live there all year long or do they head home in the spring. You can't expect them to switch teams if they are just there for the winter.

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