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Top 20 all time Dmen in +/- per game

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Old
12-16-2012, 03:44 PM
  #1
RaySheppard
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Top 20 all time Dmen in +/- per game

The other thread got me thinking so I crunched some numbers out of boredom.
+/- per game with 400 games or more. Career plus/minus divided into games played.

Orr .909
Robinson .527
Watson .481
Potvin .434
Howe .430
Konstantinov .415
Lemaire .409
Hajt .376
Dupont .374
Lapointe .372
McCrimmon .363
Bourque .327
Park .322
Ramsay .306
Lidstrom .289
Langway .279
MacInnis .263
Stevens .240
Huddy .237
Chelios .212

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12-16-2012, 05:14 PM
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RedWingsNow*
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In the era I watched, Robinson was the best, IMO.
I didn't catch Orr until the very end don't really remember much.

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12-16-2012, 05:22 PM
  #3
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaySheppard View Post
The other thread got me thinking so I crunched some numbers out of boredom.
+/- per game with 400 games or more. Career plus/minus divided into games played.

Orr .909
Robinson .527
Watson .481
Potvin .434
Howe .430
Konstantinov .415
Lemaire .409
Hajt .376
Dupont .374
Lapointe .372
McCrimmon .363
Bourque .327
Park .322
Ramsay .306
Lidstrom .289
Langway .279
MacInnis .263
Stevens .240
Huddy .237
Chelios .212
Huh?

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12-16-2012, 10:10 PM
  #4
RedWingsNow*
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Huh?
Yeah. lemaire's a forward.

Big deal.

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12-16-2012, 11:49 PM
  #5
RaySheppard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Huh?
OK, I named a Selke winner and another Selke contender from the '70's as a dman. My bad. Feel free to edit the list.

Do you even have Mark Howe in your poll?


Last edited by RaySheppard: 12-16-2012 at 11:55 PM.
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12-17-2012, 12:12 AM
  #6
nik jr
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some players are missing from the list.

serge savard, joe watson, dallas smith, randy gregg, jacques laperriere, jim schoenfeld, keith magnuson, bill white, pat stapleton, ken morrow, brian engblom, al sims, tom bladon, brian rafalski

all of those have higher marks than chelios.




players from '70s completely dominate the list. '70s had the least parity since WW2, and biggest difference between highest and lowest +/-.

reggie leach with california in '73 and '74: -102
reggie leach with flyers in '74 and '75: +126




several great teams (habs, flyers, boston, buffalo) and many bad/terrible teams (colorado/kansas city, vancouver, washington, DRW, california, STL, minnesota, etc)

WHA diluted the NHL, and there were few europeans and americans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Yeah. lemaire's a forward.

Big deal.
so was craig ramsay. mike ramsey's +/- was not high enough to make the list.




overpass, a poster who does lots of statistical and historical work here, posted a list of "adjusted +/-," which adjusts a player's +/- by comparing it to his teammates' +/-.

it tends to hurt players with great teammates with high +/- (e.g. guy lapointe), players on great teams (e.g. serge savard), and help players with good +/- on weaker teams (e.g. selanne, palffy).

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=591548


Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
2011 Update

Here's a complete update of the numbers through 2011.

I have made a couple of changes to the method. First, I lowered the adjustment factor slightly, to the benefit of players who were on good teams. Second, I made a change to the way I estimate and remove shorthanded goals from the numbers, using actual SHP, which hurts a few players who scored a lot of SHP.

Top 50
Player SFrac $ESGF/G $ESGA/G R-ON R-OFF XEV+/- EV+/- AEV+/- /Season
Ray Bourque 20.3 1.16 0.85 1.37 0.95 -54 523 577 28
Bobby Orr 7.7 1.81 0.84 2.15 1.09 47 610 562 73
Jaromir Jagr 15.9 1.25 0.91 1.37 0.95 -49 444 493 31
Larry Robinson 17.3 1.31 0.82 1.60 1.34 285 696 411 24
Al MacInnis 17.7 1.10 0.78 1.41 1.12 98 467 369 21
Mark Howe 11.7 1.11 0.75 1.48 0.97 -20 347 367 31
Eric Lindros 9.6 1.24 0.82 1.52 0.95 -29 334 363 38
Bobby Clarke 14.5 0.87 0.48 1.79 1.20 93 454 361 25
Teemu Selanne 15.7 0.97 0.79 1.23 0.85 -121 237 357 23
Nicklas Lidstrom 18.6 1.18 0.84 1.40 1.18 164 517 353 19
Borje Salming 14.4 1.17 1.02 1.14 0.82 -169 172 340 24
Wayne Gretzky 18.8 1.38 1.12 1.23 1.05 64 404 339 18
Dave Taylor 13.8 0.88 0.67 1.31 0.84 -99 234 333 24
Peter Forsberg 9.0 1.12 0.66 1.69 1.09 37 340 303 34
Guy Lafleur 14.1 1.06 0.64 1.67 1.35 193 492 299 21
Mike Bossy 9.4 1.08 0.60 1.79 1.18 69 365 297 32
Bryan Trottier 16.0 0.93 0.63 1.49 1.17 104 400 296 19
John Leclair 12.2 1.01 0.68 1.49 1.07 38 333 295 24
Marcel Dionne 16.9 0.92 0.84 1.09 0.81 -171 110 281 17
Larry Murphy 20.3 1.06 0.88 1.20 1.02 20 298 278 14
Denis Potvin 13.3 1.18 0.79 1.49 1.23 145 420 275 21
Mario Lemieux 11.3 1.26 1.07 1.18 0.87 -96 176 273 24
Ron Francis 21.7 0.88 0.80 1.11 0.90 -106 157 263 12
Brad Park 14.1 1.21 0.86 1.40 1.20 144 400 256 18
Brad McCrimmon 15.4 0.94 0.65 1.44 1.18 107 362 255 17
Joe Thornton 12.1 0.99 0.75 1.32 0.97 -18 237 255 21
Scott Stevens 20.5 1.13 0.86 1.31 1.19 188 443 255 12
Brian Rafalski 10.2 1.10 0.78 1.41 1.05 27 266 239 24
Steve Shutt 11.7 0.94 0.52 1.81 1.45 168 404 235 20
Steve Larmer 12.9 0.83 0.64 1.30 0.94 -29 202 231 18
Patrik Elias 11.7 0.87 0.59 1.47 1.09 37 267 229 20
Sergei Fedorov 15.6 0.91 0.68 1.33 1.09 59 287 227 15
Brian Propp 12.7 0.84 0.57 1.47 1.12 56 277 222 18
Zigmund Palffy 8.6 0.99 0.81 1.23 0.80 -91 131 221 26
Alex Tanguay 10.0 1.02 0.72 1.41 1.06 25 244 219 22
Chris Pronger 14.4 1.01 0.83 1.22 0.99 -6 213 219 15
Jean Ratelle 13.0 0.98 0.65 1.51 1.27 135 353 218 17
Craig Ramsay 13.4 0.72 0.48 1.50 1.12 47 264 217 16
Charlie Simmer 8.9 0.82 0.62 1.33 0.83 -64 147 211 24
Alex Ovechkin 5.8 1.22 0.85 1.44 0.90 -32 176 208 36
Pavel Datsyuk 8.1 1.01 0.64 1.58 1.12 40 247 207 26
Gary Roberts 15.1 0.87 0.65 1.33 1.10 60 266 207 14
Milan Hejduk 11.1 0.96 0.72 1.33 1.03 13 217 204 18
Keith Tkachuk 15.0 0.92 0.83 1.10 0.87 -101 103 203 14
Pierre Turgeon 16.3 0.89 0.72 1.24 1.04 25 228 203 12
Jere Lehtinen 10.7 0.78 0.52 1.49 1.07 26 226 200 19
Henrik Sedin 9.9 0.85 0.58 1.46 1.05 19 219 200 20
Luc Robitaille 17.9 0.94 0.80 1.17 1.00 3 202 199 11
Chris Chelios 20.7 0.99 0.77 1.27 1.18 162 359 196 10
Daniel Sedin 9.6 0.82 0.55 1.49 1.04 15 210 195 20

Other players of interest
Player SFrac $ESGF/G $ESGA/G R-ON R-OFF XEV+/- EV+/- AEV+/- /Season
Joe Sakic 17.3 1.00 0.88 1.14 1.01 9 173 164 10
Cam Neely 9.4 0.90 0.73 1.23 0.93 -30 130 160 17
Sidney Crosby 5.0 1.18 0.88 1.34 0.89 -32 122 154 31
Brendan Shanahan 19.0 0.84 0.70 1.21 1.10 72 224 152 8
Doug Gilmour 18.5 0.85 0.75 1.13 1.00 0 151 151 8
Paul Coffey 17.8 1.29 1.04 1.23 1.21 206 357 151 8
Stan Mikita 10.8 0.89 0.67 1.33 1.12 51 198 147 14
Frank Mahovlich 6.6 1.10 0.74 1.49 1.19 56 198 142 21
Yvan Cournoyer 9.9 0.98 0.60 1.63 1.50 168 308 140 14
Steve Yzerman 19.0 0.98 0.84 1.17 1.10 88 225 136 7
Jacques Laperriere 5.7 1.45 0.95 1.53 1.31 97 233 136 24
Gordie Howe 4.8 1.01 0.74 1.37 0.90 -24 106 131 27
Jari Kurri 15.8 0.98 0.81 1.21 1.13 92 221 129 8
Denis Savard 15.2 0.80 0.70 1.13 0.99 -4 117 121 8
Rod Langway 12.4 0.91 0.70 1.29 1.20 95 210 115 9
Bill Barber 11.3 0.83 0.53 1.57 1.50 164 278 114 10
Scott Niedermayer 15.8 1.04 0.83 1.25 1.22 155 265 110 7
Serge Savard 13.2 1.28 0.89 1.44 1.52 318 425 107 8
Brian Leetch 15.2 1.14 1.07 1.06 0.97 -24 76 101 7
Igor Larionov 11.6 0.73 0.61 1.20 1.06 22 118 96 8
Phil Esposito 13.4 1.15 0.91 1.25 1.25 162 253 91 7
Alex Delvecchio 6.0 0.96 0.83 1.16 0.93 -21 65 86 14
Pat Lafontaine 10.9 0.91 0.85 1.07 0.95 -27 55 82 8
Sergei Makarov 5.6 0.93 0.74 1.26 1.04 11 87 76 14
Vyacheslav Fetisov 6.8 0.91 0.69 1.33 1.21 57 128 71 10
Norm Ullman 7.7 0.93 0.82 1.13 1.01 3 68 66 9
Henri Richard 6.4 0.89 0.62 1.43 1.35 78 141 63 10
Mark Recchi 20.6 0.89 0.84 1.06 1.03 24 87 63 3
Tim Horton 6.0 1.18 1.02 1.15 1.04 15 78 63 10
J.C. Tremblay 4.7 1.32 0.96 1.37 1.33 82 138 57 12
Jean Beliveau 3.4 0.96 0.65 1.48 1.29 38 88 50 15
Dale Hawerchuk 14.9 0.85 0.85 1.00 0.93 -50 -2 49 3
Darryl Sittler 13.8 0.89 0.82 1.08 1.04 27 75 48 3
John Bucyk 10.1 0.87 0.64 1.37 1.47 157 196 39 4
Guy Lapointe 11.1 1.23 0.87 1.41 1.66 313 324 11 1
Brett Hull 16.0 0.95 0.87 1.09 1.14 99 106 7 0
Gilbert Perreault 15.0 0.91 0.84 1.08 1.12 83 85 3 0
Mark Messier 22.1 0.89 0.82 1.08 1.14 127 118 -10 0
Dave Keon 10.6 0.69 0.71 0.97 1.01 4 -16 -20 -2
Vaclav Nedomansky 5.3 0.46 0.62 0.75 0.81 -32 -66 -34 -6
Bob Gainey 14.5 0.62 0.50 1.23 1.51 177 136 -41 -3


Last edited by nik jr: 12-17-2012 at 12:19 AM.
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Old
12-17-2012, 12:47 AM
  #7
RaySheppard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
some players are missing from the list.

serge savard, joe watson, dallas smith, randy gregg, jacques laperriere, jim schoenfeld, keith magnuson, bill white, pat stapleton, ken morrow, brian engblom, al sims, tom bladon, brian rafalski

all of those have higher marks than chelios.




players from '70s completely dominate the list. '70s had the least parity since WW2, and biggest difference between highest and lowest +/-.

reggie leach with california in '73 and '74: -102
reggie leach with flyers in '74 and '75: +126




several great teams (habs, flyers, boston, buffalo) and many bad/terrible teams (colorado/kansas city, vancouver, washington, DRW, california, STL, minnesota, etc)

WHA diluted the NHL, and there were few europeans and americans.


so was craig ramsay. mike ramsey's +/- was not high enough to make the list.




overpass, a poster who does lots of statistical and historical work here, posted a list of "adjusted +/-," which adjusts a player's +/- by comparing it to his teammates' +/-.

it tends to hurt players with great teammates with high +/- (e.g. guy lapointe), players on great teams (e.g. serge savard), and help players with good +/- on weaker teams (e.g. selanne, palffy).

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=591548
Again, Feel free to edit. I spent half an hour on that not a week.

Interesting post though, I didn't know anything about Dallas Smith until you threw his name out there. Never heard Cherry mention the guy....hmm....

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Old
12-17-2012, 01:30 AM
  #8
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+/- is pretty much a team stat.

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12-17-2012, 05:07 AM
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Orr is just a product of his linemates.

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