HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Talks break down

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-06-2012, 08:40 PM
  #1
cbcwpg
Registered User
 
cbcwpg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Between the Pipes
Country: United Nations
Posts: 5,736
vCash: 350
Talks break down

http://www.globalwinnipeg.com/nhl+nh...377/story.html

Does not sound good.

"We'll stay and re-engage if you agree to the three things that we say are important to us, which is the term of the CBA, term limits of player contracts, which is the hill we will die on, and compliance issues," said Daly. "And what we got today, quite frankly and disappointingly, missed the mark on all three respects. So for the union to suggest somehow we are close, is cherry picking and it's unfortunate."

cbcwpg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 09:23 PM
  #2
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 55,437
vCash: 500
http://watch.tsn.ca/clip820675#clip822014

Bettman's presser: disappointed beyond belief

LadyStanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 09:24 PM
  #3
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 29,110
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
http://www.globalwinnipeg.com/nhl+nh...377/story.html

Does not sound good.

"We'll stay and re-engage if you agree to the three things that we say are important to us, which is the term of the CBA, term limits of player contracts, which is the hill we will die on, and compliance issues," said Daly. "And what we got today, quite frankly and disappointingly, missed the mark on all three respects. So for the union to suggest somehow we are close, is cherry picking and it's unfortunate."

Okay, can the players ask for 60% of HRR but give them these three things?


Fugu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 09:29 PM
  #4
Inkling
Proud to be a Mammal
 
Inkling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,286
vCash: 500
It doesn't pay to be too optimistic or pessimistic. People were ready to start the season yesterday and today some people are ready to write off the season. They've said these things before and will likely be back at the table in a week or so.

Inkling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 09:47 PM
  #5
octopi
Registered User
 
octopi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 30,697
vCash: 703
This is just ridiculous. I thought for sure we finally had something today. Actually was expecting they'd announce the season starting within a couple weeks. Well, I'm no longer an optomist....

octopi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 09:49 PM
  #6
NeelyWasAWarrior
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,826
vCash: 500
How can anybody watch this league or root for these players after all this? I'm pretty soured guys. This league is the first league to ever lose an entire season due to a lockout. Now they're on the verge of losing another season 7 years later.

I used to be a die hard fan.Now, i've slowly become a die hard NFL fan over the past 10 years to where it is now my favorite sport. Much more entertaining, no guaranteed contracts, players play their butts off and they are without full season lockouts.

NHL is a joke league.

NeelyWasAWarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 10:01 PM
  #7
TankLarkin
Registered User
 
TankLarkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 519
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeelyWasAWarrior View Post
How can anybody watch this league or root for these players after all this? I'm pretty soured guys. This league is the first league to ever lose an entire season due to a lockout. Now they're on the verge of losing another season 7 years later.

I used to be a die hard fan.Now, i've slowly become a die hard NFL fan over the past 10 years to where it is now my favorite sport. Much more entertaining, no guaranteed contracts, players play their butts off and they are without full season lockouts.

NHL is a joke league.
Today, I've thrown in the towel. I love the New York Rangers but I no longer can embrace the players- or the team - like I have for the past 33 years. Greed has seeped into the NHLPA and while my family od 7 struggles to pay the rent and buy food.... screw both sides. Done.

TankLarkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 10:08 PM
  #8
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,267
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeelyWasAWarrior View Post
How can anybody watch this league or root for these players after all this? I'm pretty soured guys. This league is the first league to ever lose an entire season due to a lockout. Now they're on the verge of losing another season 7 years later.

I used to be a die hard fan.Now, i've slowly become a die hard NFL fan over the past 10 years to where it is now my favorite sport. Much more entertaining, no guaranteed contracts, players play their butts off and they are without full season lockouts.

NHL is a joke league.
Welcome friend. NHL is a joke.

Melrose Munch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 10:17 PM
  #9
Gormo
Holupchi
 
Gormo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 1,146
vCash: 500
Its amazing to me how Bettman puts so much effort into keeping his side quiet;

Then he steps up and acts so hostile and irrational, adding even more fuel to an already raging fire, doing as much damage to the process as anyone else.

Gormo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 10:18 PM
  #10
Up the Irons
Registered User
 
Up the Irons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,923
vCash: 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeelyWasAWarrior View Post
How can anybody watch this league or root for these players after all this? I'm pretty soured guys. This league is the first league to ever lose an entire season due to a lockout. Now they're on the verge of losing another season 7 years later.

I used to be a die hard fan.Now, i've slowly become a die hard NFL fan over the past 10 years to where it is now my favorite sport. Much more entertaining, no guaranteed contracts, players play their butts off and they are without full season lockouts.

NHL is a joke league.
Completely. Once again, the integrity of the league is steamrolled so both sides can squeeze every conceivable cent for themselves. Money has consumed this league. Isn't it sad that many of us want the nhl to die and the careers of this entire generation of PA membership to be ruined. The have about a week, maybe 2, to save the league's existence.


Last edited by Up the Irons: 12-06-2012 at 10:27 PM.
Up the Irons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 10:31 PM
  #11
MoreOrr
B4
 
MoreOrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mexico
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,681
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://watch.tsn.ca/clip820675#clip822014

Bettman's presser: disappointed beyond belief
I've never respected Bettman more than I do now after listening to him and Daly in that press conference. The total passion and emotion that he had there, so bloody intense. Can't tell me now that that guy doesn't care about this game. May have had my doubts before at certain times, and I certainly don't always agree with Bettman, but now I must honestly say that he is a Hockey Guy!

MoreOrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 10:38 PM
  #12
DeathToAllButMetal
Let it all burn.
 
DeathToAllButMetal's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,346
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeelyWasAWarrior View Post
How can anybody watch this league or root for these players after all this? I'm pretty soured guys. This league is the first league to ever lose an entire season due to a lockout. Now they're on the verge of losing another season 7 years later.

I used to be a die hard fan.Now, i've slowly become a die hard NFL fan over the past 10 years to where it is now my favorite sport. Much more entertaining, no guaranteed contracts, players play their butts off and they are without full season lockouts.

NHL is a joke league.
Same here. I was a huge NFL fan as a kid into the mid-90s, then kind of drifted away and got more and more into hockey as I was playing a lot back then too. First lockout really turned me off, and this farce is souring me in a big way. I actually hope the season is killed. Maybe the only hope to get both the NHL and the NHLPA back to reality.

I hate both the league and the players right now. League is ridiculously structured with all these money-losing joke teams that are prompting the cuts in the CBA. Players are being absurd in so many ways. PA refused to meet for months and months, then wasted more months refusing to link HRR, and are now just lying and spinning while saying no to reasonable requests like a serious term on the CBA and contract limits. Fehr is also an abomination. Sorry, know that's harsh, but after what he did to MLB and is now pulling here, the man just repulses me.

Screw 'em both.

DeathToAllButMetal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 10:39 PM
  #13
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,267
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RustE View Post
Completely. Once again, the integrity of the league is steamrolled so both sides can squeeze every conceivable cent for themselves. Money has consumed this league. Isn't it sad that many of us want the nhl to die and the careers of this entire generation of PA membership to be ruined. The have about a week, maybe 2, to save the league's existence.
The league is over. Desertification. Done.

Melrose Munch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2012, 07:07 AM
  #14
MoreOrr
B4
 
MoreOrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mexico
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,681
vCash: 500
Back a couple of months ago, it was common opinion around here that the owners have all the power, that there's no way the players can win; and I jumped right in with that belief. Even though there had been plenty of evidence to show that NHL players have done damn well in this League, which isn't the cream of the crop with respect to its economic standing as a major league in sports. And now, once again we're seeing that the players union has been forcing the owners into making probably more concessions than what they should be, and yet still the players union isn't satisfied. So which side really does have the strength?

I'm beginning to believe that for the most part these owners care more about hockey than do many of the players who are, yes I have to admit it, coming off as being greedy. Oh of course there have been a few owners who've demonstrated that they cared little of hockey, those in Atlanta and in Phoenix, and perhaps there's still one or two in the League today, but for the most part these guys are in the League because hockey is a passion for them. And why has it been that the players union have had so much power over the owners? Because the owners know that it's a competitive business to keep bringing in the fan dollars, and the League just can't go around continually screwing over the fans and expect to keep the League healthy. The players don't seem to respect that point at all.

Yes, the League has been making money, but it's a league of great economic disparity, and if it wants to maintain the size that it has achieved, or even anything close to that, it needs to have an economic system in place that allows the non-Jones' of the League to stay above water. This League can't function at the high end alone, not unless you want to cut the League by 2/3 and have perhaps even less than 10 teams. The players need to recognize this economic reality and know that a certain economic structure needs to be in place also to keep most of their jobs. If the players keep fighting for things that can't allow the League to be economically healthy, then there won't be a league anything similar to what currently exists, and a great many of these players will be out of a job or seeking playing options in other places where they won't receive half the pay that they receive in the NHL.

There needs to be a way to break the PA. I think we've seen signs that they aren't totally united, but how does one get those who want to play hockey to stop simply being followers and step up to fight for that objective?

Sorry for the rant!

MoreOrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2012, 08:26 AM
  #15
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 35,476
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Yes, the League has been making money, but it's a league of great economic disparity, and if it wants to maintain the size that it has achieved, or even anything close to that, it needs to have an economic system in place that allows the non-Jones' of the League to stay above water. This League can't function at the high end alone, not unless you want to cut the League by 2/3 and have perhaps even less than 10 teams. The players need to recognize this economic reality and know that a certain economic structure needs to be in place also to keep most of their jobs. If the players keep fighting for things that can't allow the League to be economically healthy, then there won't be a league anything similar to what currently exists, and a great many of these players will be out of a job or seeking playing options in other places where they won't receive half the pay that they receive in the NHL.

There needs to be a way to break the PA. I think we've seen signs that they aren't totally united, but how does one get those who want to play hockey to stop simply being followers and step up to fight for that objective?

Sorry for the rant!
The NHL is not proposing such a system, just ways of slowing the bleeding and pushing off having to make hard decisions further into the future. Or do you believe that the disparity in revenue growth that has driven NHL income inequality is going to magically disappear?

Epsilon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2012, 08:38 AM
  #16
MoreOrr
B4
 
MoreOrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mexico
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,681
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
The NHL is not proposing such a system, just ways of slowing the bleeding and pushing off having to make hard decisions further into the future. Or do you believe that the disparity in revenue growth that has driven NHL income inequality is going to magically disappear?
No I don't, and yes I agree and understand what you're saying. The owners' proposed solutions are only to slow the bleeding of many teams, because certainly a different format would need to be in place if the hope would be to almost stop the bleeding altogether. But that's beside the point, because such a different economic structure isn't in place and would be virtually impossible to put in place without shutting down the League and then rebooting it anew. The point is that the owners are trying to modify the economic structure to, as you say, at least make the bleeding of most teams be bearable.

MoreOrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2012, 08:42 AM
  #17
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 35,476
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
No I don't, and yes I agree and understand what you're saying. The owners' proposed solutions are only to slow the bleeding of many teams, because certainly a different format would need to be in place if the hope would be to almost stop the bleeding altogether. But that's beside the point, because such a different economic structure isn't in place and would be virtually impossible to put in place without shutting down the League and then rebooting it anew. The point is that the owners are trying to modify the economic structure to, as you say, at least make the bleeding of most teams be bearable.
The NHL needs to abandon the myth that it can have NFL-style parity without NFL-style revenue generation and dispersion. Convince the PA to let the cap floor drop considerably, have a much wider gap between the floor and ceiling, and acknowledge the reality that there are some teams that should be spending a lot less both for economic and hockey reasons (for instance, teams rebuilding with lots of young players on ELCs).

Epsilon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2012, 08:52 AM
  #18
MoreOrr
B4
 
MoreOrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mexico
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,681
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
The NHL needs to abandon the myth that it can have NFL-style parity without NFL-style revenue generation and dispersion. Convince the PA to let the cap floor drop considerably, have a much wider gap between the floor and ceiling, and acknowledge the reality that there are some teams that should be spending a lot less both for economic and hockey reasons (for instance, teams rebuilding with lots of young players on ELCs).
LOL... Then the NHL needs to abandon the myth that it can be a 30-team or ultimately even a 20-team League. Plain and simple, using your idea. And that means that many of the players can kiss the potential of NHL jobs good-bye, because there won't be enough teams to employ their services.

MoreOrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2012, 08:55 AM
  #19
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 35,476
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
LOL... Then the NHL needs to abandon the myth that it can be a 30-team or ultimately even a 20-team League. Plain and simple, using your idea. And that means that many of the players can kiss the potential of NHL jobs good-bye, because there won't be enough teams to employ their services.
I don't understand how allowing greater salary disparity between teams is going to lead to many of them being contracted. It's a mechanism that allows them to keep their salary commitments under control.

One of the biggest issues surrounding these negotiations is that too many teams are allegedly losing money due to having to pay too much in salary because of the static 16 million dollar gap between the floor and the ceiling. There's no reason it needs to be that tight other than to promote the illusion of NFL-style parity where every team is on the same footing.

Epsilon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2012, 09:03 AM
  #20
MoreOrr
B4
 
MoreOrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mexico
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,681
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I don't understand how allowing greater salary disparity between teams is going to lead to many of them being contracted. It's a mechanism that allows them to keep their salary commitments under control.

One of the biggest issues surrounding these negotiations is that too many teams are allegedly losing money due to having to pay too much in salary because of the static 16 million dollar gap between the floor and the ceiling. There's no reason it needs to be that tight other than to promote the illusion of NFL-style parity where every team is on the same footing.
Unlike the NFL where first teams only play a few games in the Season, but primarily it's a sport with a widespread and populous fanbase and therefore teams can afford to struggle for Seasons on end and not lose tons of money,... the NHL doesn't have that luxury. Most teams in the NHL can't afford not to be competitive or else their fanbase will all but disappear or so much so that the franchise becomes economically unviable. On-ice parity is a necessity in this League/sport, and to have that there needs to be economic parity, plain and simple.

MoreOrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2012, 09:04 AM
  #21
ryno23
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Back a couple of months ago, it was common opinion around here that the owners have all the power, that there's no way the players can win; and I jumped right in with that belief. Even though there had been plenty of evidence to show that NHL players have done damn well in this League, which isn't the cream of the crop with respect to its economic standing as a major league in sports. And now, once again we're seeing that the players union has been forcing the owners into making probably more concessions than what they should be, and yet still the players union isn't satisfied. So which side really does have the strength?

I'm beginning to believe that for the most part these owners care more about hockey than do many of the players who are, yes I have to admit it, coming off as being greedy. Oh of course there have been a few owners who've demonstrated that they cared little of hockey, those in Atlanta and in Phoenix, and perhaps there's still one or two in the League today, but for the most part these guys are in the League because hockey is a passion for them. And why has it been that the players union have had so much power over the owners? Because the owners know that it's a competitive business to keep bringing in the fan dollars, and the League just can't go around continually screwing over the fans and expect to keep the League healthy. The players don't seem to respect that point at all.

Yes, the League has been making money, but it's a league of great economic disparity, and if it wants to maintain the size that it has achieved, or even anything close to that, it needs to have an economic system in place that allows the non-Jones' of the League to stay above water. This League can't function at the high end alone, not unless you want to cut the League by 2/3 and have perhaps even less than 10 teams. The players need to recognize this economic reality and know that a certain economic structure needs to be in place also to keep most of their jobs. If the players keep fighting for things that can't allow the League to be economically healthy, then there won't be a league anything similar to what currently exists, and a great many of these players will be out of a job or seeking playing options in other places where they won't receive half the pay that they receive in the NHL.

There needs to be a way to break the PA. I think we've seen signs that they aren't totally united, but how does one get those who want to play hockey to stop simply being followers and step up to fight for that objective?

Sorry for the rant!
so going from 57 % to 50% knocks what 7 million off each teams cap. So Nash, CBJ, PHO, FLA, TB, NYL among the faulty franchises are still losing tons of money while the Leafs, Rangers, Habs just made another 7 million profit due to less payroll.

So how does it fix anything. Meaningful revenue sharing done by the richer clubs to the poorer clubs like in the NFL, MLB and NBA is the solution but the owners refuse to go down that road instead trying to take money away from the players.

This fight is about putting a system in place that the owners and gm's cannot circumvent once the league starts up again. The system was supposed to be fixed by the last CBA when they got "COST Certainty" in the form of a salary cap and a 24% roll back on salaries. What happened the owners/gm found a way to circumvent the cap in order to win. The same will happen when this deal is struck owner/gm will find a way to beat the system in order to win.


Players and fans are hostage to a bunch of billionaires fighting over how to screw each other over and refusing to implement a meaningful revenue sharing plan to ensure all franchises are viable.

That is the real reason for the lockout.

ryno23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2012, 09:36 AM
  #22
MoreOrr
B4
 
MoreOrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mexico
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,681
vCash: 500
I'm all for Revenue Sharing, but it must still have its limits. There's no reason why owners in strong markets should have to share all their profits to support markets that struggle. Again though, if it's the cost of increasing salaries that keeps pushing expenses out of reach of many markets, then revenue sharing is a necessity; that and trying to limit those costs.


Last edited by LadyStanley: 12-07-2012 at 10:03 AM. Reason: qdp
MoreOrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2012, 09:58 AM
  #23
ryno23
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I'm all for Revenue Sharing, but it must still have its limits. There's no reason why owners in strong markets should have to share all their profits to support markets that struggle. Again though, if it's the cost of increasing salaries that keeps pushing expenses out of reach of many markets, then revenue sharing is a necessity; that and trying to limit those costs.
Owners should not have to share ALL the profits they need to share a certain % based on certain criteria first and foremost is that the revenue shared is put back into players salaries which will hopefully with smart managers make the team competitive which will in turn increase revenue with stronger attendance, concessions, parking, TV rights, merchandise sales. With that increased revenue from those streams the revenue needed to be shared becomes less and less hopefully each year.

It boils down to owners hiring good hockey people to run the hockey end of things and make their team better which will bring people to the building. Hockey is a gate driven league and will always be that way.

This formula is a necessity for southern based markets who are the ones struggling on the ice and off of it. You can get away with a S**T team in Toronto, Montreal, Calgary and people will still fill the building but not in Dallas, PHO, CBJ among others.

ryno23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2012, 09:58 AM
  #24
c4fn8d
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 631
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
http://www.globalwinnipeg.com/nhl+nh...377/story.html

Does not sound good.

"which is the term of the CBA, term limits of player contracts, which is the hill we will die on, and compliance issues,"
They want 7% from the players pie.
They want to never ever have to pay into retirement years which is taking money from players.
They want to remove loopholes designed to free cap space by burying contracts which ultimately take money away from players.

They want to take, take, take. The players are trying to give less. That is why we are having this lockout. It can't be more clear here.

c4fn8d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2012, 11:43 AM
  #25
colchar
Registered User
 
colchar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,167
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I've never respected Bettman more than I do now after listening to him and Daly in that press conference. The total passion and emotion that he had there, so bloody intense. Can't tell me now that that guy doesn't care about this game. May have had my doubts before at certain times, and I certainly don't always agree with Bettman, but now I must honestly say that he is a Hockey Guy!

I think he is just pissed off that he can't bully Fehr.

colchar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:25 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.