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Joe Thornton Legacy

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05-03-2014, 08:09 AM
  #1
Dennis Bonvie
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Joe Thornton Legacy

With the Sharks ouster in the first round after holding a 3-0 lead, how does this effect the view of Captain Joe?

Seems that over the past couple of seasons the reputation of playoff failure had diminished. Will this season's epic flop resurrect Thornton's bad rep? If so, is it fair?

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05-03-2014, 08:40 AM
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Killion
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Ya, I believe it will.... The Roberto Luongo Affect. Two peas in the same pod Mr.Bonvie.

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05-03-2014, 08:55 AM
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Dennis Bonvie
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Ya, I believe it will.... The Roberto Luongo Affect. Two peas in the same pod Mr.Bonvie.
Good comparison.

On the "Best Of" lists, we had Thornton 34th for centers, Luongo 36th for goalies.

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05-03-2014, 09:15 AM
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Scotty Pucks
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When I hear the name "Joe Thornton" 15-20 years down the line, my assessment will most likely be:


"Ah, Jumbo... Jumbo Joe. Great, great playmaker. Lots of assists. Not too many goals, but lots of assists. Started his career in Boston, and should've stayed there if he wanted to be a winner. Never won a thing in his career."

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05-03-2014, 09:19 AM
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Killion
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Thornton & Luongo?... Absolutely... Honorary members of Team VooDoo.... Thornton yer pivot on the Hex Line.... gotta cure for it though..... Jimson weed, sulphur n' whiskey.... Rub the glass against a black cat, drink..... Good to go... Could have a whole lot of fun building this roster.

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05-03-2014, 09:27 AM
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Dennis Bonvie
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Thornton & Luongo?... Absolutely... Honorary members of Team VooDoo.... Thornton yer pivot on the Hex Line.... gotta cure for it though..... Jimson weed, sulphur n' whiskey.... Rub the glass against a black cat, drink..... Good to go... Could have a whole lot of fun building this roster.
What would have been the cure for Mike Gartner?

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05-03-2014, 10:20 AM
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vadim sharifijanov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
With the Sharks ouster in the first round after holding a 3-0 lead, how does this effect the view of Captain Joe?

Seems that over the past couple of seasons the reputation of playoff failure had diminished. Will this season's epic flop resurrect Thornton's bad rep? If so, is it fair?
1. confirms what most have been saying all along. 2. yes, though i think you overstate the degree to which his rep had been ameliorated. 3. oh yes most def.

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What would have been the cure for Mike Gartner?
actually being a franchise-level, game-altering talent?

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05-03-2014, 10:44 AM
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Hey guys, Jumbo won a Swiss Championship and tore up the playoffs with HC Davos in 2004–05. His numbers actually increased in the playoffs that year from his regular season numbers.

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05-03-2014, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
What would have been the cure for Mike Gartner?
Born Again Christian. Any player selected to Team VooDoo would have to be Agnostic & willing to embrace the magic. Already made his choice.... however, had he simply sewn an acorn into some part of his equipment.... wouldve counteracted his bad luck in winding up on sad sack teams which all stemmed from his youth when his Aunt gave him an empty wallet for his 10th Birthday which he uses to this day.... Never give anyone an empty wallet Mr. Bonvie.... Bad Luck.... Acorns....

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05-03-2014, 11:03 AM
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vadim sharifijanov
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Hey guys, Jumbo won a Swiss Championship and tore up the playoffs with HC Davos in 2004–05. His numbers actually increased in the playoffs that year from his regular season numbers.
dany heatley playoff godmode

(and btw, in the last week vince carter and his NHL doppelgaenger heatley have both had reputation-(slightly)-altering playoff performances. is this real life?)

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05-03-2014, 11:04 AM
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LeBlondeDemon10
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Up 3-0 against a team as good as the Kings is a mirage many of us often fall for. As Yogi Berra once said, "It's never over til its over." At the beginning of that series, I said it could go either way. Some key injuries for the Sharks and the Kings are back in it. Pinning this on one guy is unfair. The whole team collapsed, although it is nothing new in SJ. But they did make it to the CF's last year. Nothing to sneeze at. Lost to the SC Champs.

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05-03-2014, 11:08 AM
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Water Seeks Its Level

The Kings vs Sharks was the late game in our region so I saw every game.

The slow regression to the norm of the Sharks and Joe Thornton was most interesting to watch especially starting with Game 3, Slow drift back to the same old bad habits(team and player)

Same was true in the Hawks - Blues series viewed on alternate days.

Especially disappointing was the failure of analysts to pick-up the négatives of the Raffi Torres, Steve Ott, Maxim Lapierre types. Initially - first two games served a bit of a purpose but beyond threw the team game completely out of sync by running around and creating holes that had to be compensted for by the other players.

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05-03-2014, 11:08 AM
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vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Up 3-0 against a team as good as the Kings is a mirage many of us often fall for. As Yogi Berra once said, "It's never over til its over." At the beginning of that series, I said it could go either way. Some key injuries for the Sharks and the Kings are back in it. Pinning this on one guy is unfair. The whole team collapsed, although it is nothing new in SJ. But they did make it to the CF's last year. Nothing to sneeze at. Lost to the SC Champs.
but up 3-0 on the back of depth scoring that then disappeared.

thornton's line was not especially a factor in the wins, and not at all in the losses. i think you pin that on your captain/mvp, not on the grinders who stopped overachieving.

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05-03-2014, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
but up 3-0 on the back of depth scoring that then disappeared.

thornton's line was not especially a factor in the wins, and not at all in the losses. i think you pin that on your captain/mvp, not on the grinders who stopped overachieving.
Maybe so, but I can only think of 4-5 players in the history of hockey who, on their own, could have that much of an effect against one team. Joe ain't one of them.

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05-03-2014, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Up 3-0 against a team as good as the Kings is a mirage many of us often fall for. As Yogi Berra once said, "It's never over til its over." At the beginning of that series, I said it could go either way. Some key injuries for the Sharks and the Kings are back in it. Pinning this on one guy is unfair. The whole team collapsed, although it is nothing new in SJ. But they did make it to the CF's last year. Nothing to sneeze at. Lost to the SC Champs.
The other team is irrelevant. If you are up 3-0 and have the offensive talent SJ has there is NO excuse for losing 4 games in a row. Thornton is the common factor to all the Sharks chokes over the last 10 years and his refusal to play a complete game is a major factor. Sharks have players who have won championships and know how to win.
It is either the failure of team leaders or coaches that lead to the yearly collapses.

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05-03-2014, 12:18 PM
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Maybe so, but I can only think of 4-5 players in the history of hockey who, on their own, could have that much of an effect against one team. Joe ain't one of them.
That is because it is how his poor attitude affects his team, not the opponent.

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05-03-2014, 12:32 PM
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Maybe so, but I can only think of 4-5 players in the history of hockey who, on their own, could have that much of an effect against one team. Joe ain't one of them.
i don't think expecting a franchise player to take over and be the difference between losing and winning one game out of four to advance/avoid a historic and mortifying collapse is unreasonable. i'm not asking for a forsberg series here, just to put on his big boy pants once in four tries.

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05-03-2014, 01:28 PM
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I feel sorry for him. Maybe he is not Patrick Roy of centres, but I don't buy he is responsible for every season SJ collapse.

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05-03-2014, 01:48 PM
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Thornton isn't specifically at fault for any one meltdown, choke job or elimination, but cumulatively over the course of his entire, he's a big time loser. The guy has never managed to score more than 3 goals in any playoff run in the NHL in any one year. That's beyond pathetic.

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05-03-2014, 01:48 PM
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I love Joe Thornton, but he had 3 points in the 7 game series. More so, he had 0 points in the final 4 games. It isn't unreasonable to expect your captain and probably still best player to find a way to close the deal. Patrick Marleau who is always a guy I feel has gotten off the hook for the past San Jose playoff failures as well, actually produced alright in this series. Niemi wasn't great in goal either, and it was shades of Evgeni Nabokov who also had some choke jobs in the last decade for San Jose (who also gets off the hook for those).

So while it isn't all Joe, you don't want to be known as the captain of the 4th team to squander a 3-0 series lead in 100 years of NHL history. In one of those games you have to take the bull by the horns. But then again, look at the players on L.A. Almost all of them won a Cup two years ago, they are big game players and not always the ones that score 100 points a year but ones who often show up. San Jose on the other hand has a history of being unable to close a series and this has been going on for a decade for them. I yawned when I heard people saying "This is San Jose's year" because I knew they would collapse somewhere along the way.

Joe does deserve some of this blame for sure. He has to.

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05-03-2014, 01:54 PM
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I love Joe Thornton, but he had 3 points in the 7 game series. More so, he had 0 points in the final 4 games. It isn't unreasonable to expect your captain and probably still best player to find a way to close the deal. Patrick Marleau who is always a guy I feel has gotten off the hook for the past San Jose playoff failures as well, actually produced alright in this series. Niemi wasn't great in goal either, and it was shades of Evgeni Nabokov who also had some choke jobs in the last decade for San Jose (who also gets off the hook for those).

So while it isn't all Joe, you don't want to be known as the captain of the 4th team to squander a 3-0 series lead in 100 years of NHL history. In one of those games you have to take the bull by the horns. But then again, look at the players on L.A. Almost all of them won a Cup two years ago, they are big game players and not always the ones that score 100 points a year but ones who often show up. San Jose on the other hand has a history of being unable to close a series and this has been going on for a decade for them. I yawned when I heard people saying "This is San Jose's year" because I knew they would collapse somewhere along the way.

Joe does deserve some of this blame for sure. He has to.
I don't feel it hurted Chara's legacy. Certainly not a topic in discussion about him.

Odds that certain team doesn't win a cup in a certain season are like...heaven high.

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05-03-2014, 02:06 PM
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Even if Marleau isn't directly being discussed, I do want to defend his play. Outside of game 7 I thought he played well and managed to get 7 points in 7 game, though he was shut out the final three games.

In game 4 he had 2 points on the 3 SJ goals, though he was on the ice for 2 ES goals against. It's not fair to blame LA's 6 goals on him.

Thornton certainly deserves his fair share of blame. The only two playoffs I thought he was good were 10-11 and 12-13. And he's always been very weak internationally. He's just not a strong big-game performer.

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05-03-2014, 02:39 PM
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I don't feel it hurted Chara's legacy. Certainly not a topic in discussion about him.

Odds that certain team doesn't win a cup in a certain season are like...heaven high.
No it didn't hurt Chara's legacy at all in 2010. Because look at what they did in 2011 and since then. If you win a Cup immediately after a choke job like that things will be forgiven pretty quickly. It is safe to say Chara has redeemed himself don't you think?

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05-03-2014, 03:07 PM
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So when Thornton win the next season , his label is forgotten? More exaggeration, he win and choke heavily further, until retirement. Is he no more a choker because he won that one?
Or Boston Burque was weak playoff performer because he couldnt finish the job and that one lucky move to Colorade changes everything?
Or Hossa was a team cancer, suddenly viewed as a memorable thing in this era with four SCFs in 6 years?

Players either is (non)choker or not. The win doesn't change things that much.

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05-03-2014, 03:12 PM
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So when Thornton win the next season , his label is forgotten? More exaggeration, he win and choke heavily further, until retirement. Is he no more a choker because he won that one?
Or Boston Burque was weak playoff performer because he couldnt finish the job and that one lucky move to Colorade changes everything?
Or Hossa was a team cancer, suddenly viewed as a memorable thing in this era with four SCFs in 6 years?

Players either is (non)choker or not. The win doesn't change things that much.
Players can change over their career.

Yzerman is a good example of someone who was considered a choker early on, but is now looked upon as a playoff warrior.

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