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Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

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Old
12-02-2012, 04:48 PM
  #226
MXD
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A constant, though : Pierre Pilote is ranked low. Aggregate rank is 84.

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Old
12-02-2012, 04:49 PM
  #227
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Re: Crosby and Doughty.

The history board generally evaluates players by "if he died tomorrow, what would his career look like." Which is one valid way, but it isn't the only one. The biggest reason we do this is because of how foolish the 1998 THN Top 100 list looks in retrospect for their high rating of Eric Lindros, based on what they expected him to do, not what he already did.

But there's no law that that's the only way to evaluate players. Bowman is obviously assuming a normal career progression for Crosby and Doughty when he ranks them where he is, and given their current peaks and with a normal career progression, their spots are fairly reasonable IMO.

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Old
12-02-2012, 05:42 PM
  #228
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Just to make a few comparisons to the magazines choices, and this boards choices for the top 100 in 2008:

On the 2008 HOH Top 100, 79 of the 100 players were Canadians. Comparing that with the top 79 players on the magazines aggregate list, there were 32 players on our top 79 Canadians that weren't among the magazines top 79:

Lalonde
Schmidt
Apps
Taylor
Cook
Durnan
M. Bentley
Malone
Pilote
Clapper
Clancy
Bathgate
Horton
F. Boucher
Broda
Seibert
Benedict
Denneny
Stewart
Cleghorn
Joliat
Kennedy
Bower
Lach
Cowley
T.Blake
Hainsworth
Gadsby
Jackson
Abel
D. Bentley
Nighbor

What do those players have in common? Well, 27 of them had their peak years before 1950. It's sad that players from 1910-1950 were largely ignored. Apps and Schmidt in particular should be locks for the top 50, and for all the criticism that Bowman's list has gotten here, he was the only one to put both those players in his top 50.

The 5 players who peaked after 1950 were Pilote, Horton, Bathgate, Bower and Gadsby. The first four all finished in the magazines 80-90 range, so they just barely missed the cut. Though they shouldn't have been that low. Gadsby didn't make the top 100 list. Only Farber and Demers had him on their lists. Why is a player who had that long and good a career suddenly forgotten? Is it just because he had no Cups and no Norris? Will the same fate happen to Brad Park 25 years from now?


On the other side, these are the 32 players that made the magazines top 79 that didn't make the boards list:

Crosby
Robitaille
D. Savard
Cournoyer
Niedermayer
Shanahan
Lemaire
Hawerchuk
Nieuwendyk
Goulet
LaPointe
Ratelle
Gartner
Sittler
Anderson
Oates
Lindros
Iginla
Pronger
McDonald
Neely
Turgeon
Shutt
Gainey
Recchi
R. Blake
Smith
Murphy
Andreychuk
Fuhr
Fleury
Damphousse

Now our list was 4 years ago. I'm sure if we did one now that Crosby would easily make it. And it's probable that Iginla and Pronger have added enough to their resumes to make it. And a lot of these players were included on the lists that we submitted, but didn't make the cut. However, there were 3 players that nobody on this board included on their personal top 120 list: Turgeon, Fleury, Damphousse.

I love Theo Fleury, and think he deserves to be in the HHOF; but in my opinion he's nowhere close to being in the top 100 ever. Turgeon and Damphousse are puzzling. I understand that they were productive offensive players over their long careers, but so were Thornton, Larmer and Taylor. I honestly don't see the argument for Turgeon, or especially Damphousse.

Incidentally, Martin St. Louis finished a few spots below Damphousse, and I think he would've been a better choice than several of the players on the above list.

And among the players who made both top 79 lists, the biggest drops and gains from ours to theirs:

Shore -62 (7, 69)
Morenz -56 (10, 66)
Hall -28 (19, 47)
Lindsay -23 (21, 44)
Park -23 (34, 57)

Francis +50 (76,26)
Savard +47 (78, 31)
Perreault +40 (68, 28)
Stevens +28 (73, 45)
Bucyk +27 (69, 42)


Last edited by reckoning: 12-02-2012 at 06:59 PM.
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Old
12-02-2012, 06:12 PM
  #229
Dennis Bonvie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Re: Crosby and Doughty.

The history board generally evaluates players by "if he died tomorrow, what would his career look like." Which is one valid way, but it isn't the only one. The biggest reason we do this is because of how foolish the 1998 THN Top 100 list looks in retrospect for their high rating of Eric Lindros, based on what they expected him to do, not what he already did.

But there's no law that that's the only way to evaluate players. Bowman is obviously assuming a normal career progression for Crosby and Doughty when he ranks them where he is, and given their current peaks and with a normal career progression, their spots are fairly reasonable IMO.
Not sure that Bowman is assuming normal career progression (or career at all). Rather, just looking at the player as he sees him. Guess we'd have to ask Scotty, but I'd be afraid of what he might say.

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:15 PM
  #230
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Red Fisher - Top-100

1 : Bobby Orr
2 : Wayne Gretzky
3 : Mario Lemieux
4 : Jean Béliveau
5 : Maurice Richard
6 : Gordie Howe
7 : Doug Harvey
8 : Bobby Hull
9 : Mark Messier
10 : Phil Esposito
11 : Mike Bossy
12 : Guy Lafleur
13 : Denis Potvin
14 : Henri Richard
15 : Frank Mahovlich
16 : Raymond Bourque
17 : Bernard Geoffrion
18 : Paul Coffey
19 : Dickie Moore
20 : Ron Francis
21 : Steve Yzerman
22 : Jacques Plante
23 : Martin Brodeur
24 : Bryan Trottier
25 : Larry Robinson
26 : Gilbert Perreault
27 : Marcel Dionne
28 : Yvan Cournoyer
29 : Bob Gainey
30 : Dave Keon
31 : Serge Savard
32 : Terry Sawchuck
33 : Patrick Roy
34 : Ken Dryden
35 : Joe Sakic
36 : Brendan Shanahan
37 : Denis Savard
38 : Bobby Clarke
39 : Joe Nieuwendyk
40 : Bernard Parent
41 : Guy Lapointe
42 : Luc Robitaille
43 : Jean Ratelle
44 : Ted Lindsay
45 : Alex Delvecchio
46 : Jacques Lemaire
47 : Michel Goulet
48 : Steve Shutt
49 : Darryl Sittler
50 : Jarome Iginla
51 : John Bucyk
52 : Scott Niedermayer
53 : Sidney Crosby
54 : Steven Stamkos
55 : Richard Martin
56 : Cam Neely
57 : Chris Pronger
58 : Andy Bathgate
59 : Al MacInnis
60 : Brad Park
61 : Claude Provost
62 : Pierre Turgeon
63 : Glenn Hall
64 : Pete Mahovlich
65 : Mark Recchi
66 : Rob Blake
67 : Johnny Bower
68 : Grant Fuhr
69 : Mike Gartner
70 : Dave Andreychuck
71 : Adam Oates
72 : Dale Hawerchuck
73 : Jacques Laperriere
74 : Doug Gilmour
75 : Norm Ullman
76 : Glenn Anderson
77 : Vincent Damphousse
78 : Red Kelly
79 : Bobby Smith
80 : Rodrigue Gilbert
81 : JC Tremblay
82 : Lanny McDonald
83 : Vincent Lecavalier
84 : Joe Thornton
85 : Eric Lindros
86 : Bert Olmstead
87 : Pierre Larouche
88 : Gump Worsley
89 : Pierre Pilote
90 : Rick Middleton
91 : Theo Fleury
92 : Rene Robert
93 : Butch Goring
94 : Rod Brind'Amour
95 : Scott Stevens
96 : Kevin Lowe
97 : Patrick Marleau
98 : Guy Carbonneau
99 : Eric Desjardins
100 : Claude Lemieux

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:20 PM
  #231
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These guys seem to love Dave Andreychuk.

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:26 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
These guys seem to love Dave Andreychuk.
How about Ron Francis?

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:51 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Red Fisher - Top-100

1 : Bobby Orr
2 : Wayne Gretzky
3 : Mario Lemieux
4 : Jean Béliveau
5 : Maurice Richard
6 : Gordie Howe
7 : Doug Harvey
8 : Bobby Hull
9 : Mark Messier
10 : Phil Esposito
11 : Mike Bossy
12 : Guy Lafleur
13 : Denis Potvin
14 : Henri Richard
15 : Frank Mahovlich
16 : Raymond Bourque
17 : Bernard Geoffrion
18 : Paul Coffey
19 : Dickie Moore
20 : Ron Francis
21 : Steve Yzerman
22 : Jacques Plante
23 : Martin Brodeur
24 : Bryan Trottier
25 : Larry Robinson
26 : Gilbert Perreault
27 : Marcel Dionne
28 : Yvan Cournoyer
29 : Bob Gainey
30 : Dave Keon
31 : Serge Savard
32 : Terry Sawchuck
33 : Patrick Roy
34 : Ken Dryden
35 : Joe Sakic
36 : Brendan Shanahan
37 : Denis Savard
38 : Bobby Clarke
39 : Joe Nieuwendyk
40 : Bernard Parent
41 : Guy Lapointe
42 : Luc Robitaille
43 : Jean Ratelle
44 : Ted Lindsay
45 : Alex Delvecchio
46 : Jacques Lemaire
47 : Michel Goulet
48 : Steve Shutt
49 : Darryl Sittler
50 : Jarome Iginla
51 : John Bucyk
52 : Scott Niedermayer
53 : Sidney Crosby
54 : Steven Stamkos
55 : Richard Martin
56 : Cam Neely
57 : Chris Pronger
58 : Andy Bathgate
59 : Al MacInnis
60 : Brad Park
61 : Claude Provost
62 : Pierre Turgeon
63 : Glenn Hall
64 : Pete Mahovlich
65 : Mark Recchi
66 : Rob Blake
67 : Johnny Bower
68 : Grant Fuhr
69 : Mike Gartner
70 : Dave Andreychuck
71 : Adam Oates
72 : Dale Hawerchuck
73 : Jacques Laperriere
74 : Doug Gilmour
75 : Norm Ullman
76 : Glenn Anderson
77 : Vincent Damphousse
78 : Red Kelly
79 : Bobby Smith
80 : Rodrigue Gilbert
81 : JC Tremblay
82 : Lanny McDonald
83 : Vincent Lecavalier
84 : Joe Thornton
85 : Eric Lindros
86 : Bert Olmstead
87 : Pierre Larouche
88 : Gump Worsley
89 : Pierre Pilote
90 : Rick Middleton
91 : Theo Fleury
92 : Rene Robert
93 : Butch Goring
94 : Rod Brind'Amour
95 : Scott Stevens
96 : Kevin Lowe
97 : Patrick Marleau
98 : Guy Carbonneau
99 : Eric Desjardins
100 : Claude Lemieux
Are you sure this isn't Lucien Bouchard's list?

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:53 PM
  #234
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Beliveau and Richard over Gordie Howe? Okay, Red.

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:56 PM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Red Fisher - Top-100

1 : Bobby Orr
2 : Wayne Gretzky
3 : Mario Lemieux
4 : Jean Béliveau
5 : Maurice Richard

6 : Gordie Howe
7 : Doug Harvey
8 : Bobby Hull
9 : Mark Messier
10 : Phil Esposito
11 : Mike Bossy
12 : Guy Lafleur
13 : Denis Potvin
14 : Henri Richard
15 : Frank Mahovlich

16 : Raymond Bourque
17 : Bernard Geoffrion
18 : Paul Coffey
19 : Dickie Moore
20 : Ron Francis
21 : Steve Yzerman
22 : Jacques Plante
23 : Martin Brodeur
24 : Bryan Trottier
25 : Larry Robinson
26 : Gilbert Perreault
27 : Marcel Dionne
28 : Yvan Cournoyer
29 : Bob Gainey

30 : Dave Keon
31 : Serge Savard
32 : Terry Sawchuck
33 : Patrick Roy
34 : Ken Dryden

35 : Joe Sakic
36 : Brendan Shanahan
37 : Denis Savard
38 : Bobby Clarke
39 : Joe Nieuwendyk
40 : Bernard Parent
41 : Guy Lapointe
42 : Luc Robitaille
43 : Jean Ratelle
44 : Ted Lindsay
45 : Alex Delvecchio
46 : Jacques Lemaire
47 : Michel Goulet
48 : Steve Shutt
49 : Darryl Sittler
50 : Jarome Iginla
51 : John Bucyk
52 : Scott Niedermayer
53 : Sidney Crosby
54 : Steven Stamkos
55 : Richard Martin
56 : Cam Neely
57 : Chris Pronger
58 : Andy Bathgate
59 : Al MacInnis
60 : Brad Park
61 : Claude Provost
62 : Pierre Turgeon
63 : Glenn Hall
64 : Pete Mahovlich
65 : Mark Recchi
66 : Rob Blake
67 : Johnny Bower
68 : Grant Fuhr
69 : Mike Gartner
70 : Dave Andreychuck
71 : Adam Oates
72 : Dale Hawerchuck
73 : Jacques Laperriere
74 : Doug Gilmour
75 : Norm Ullman
76 : Glenn Anderson
77 : Vincent Damphousse
78 : Red Kelly
79 : Bobby Smith
80 : Rodrigue Gilbert
81 : JC Tremblay
82 : Lanny McDonald
83 : Vincent Lecavalier
84 : Joe Thornton
85 : Eric Lindros
86 : Bert Olmstead
87 : Pierre Larouche
88 : Gump Worsley

89 : Pierre Pilote
90 : Rick Middleton
91 : Theo Fleury
92 : Rene Robert
93 : Butch Goring
94 : Rod Brind'Amour
95 : Scott Stevens
96 : Kevin Lowe
97 : Patrick Marleau
98 : Guy Carbonneau
99 : Eric Desjardins
100 : Claude Lemieux
About what I would expect from Red fisher. Look at all the guys that wore a Habs uniform. Richard & Beliveau ahead of Howe. Richard, Beliveau & Harvey ahead of Hull. Does Dick Irvin JR also have a list? Expect it would be similiar.

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Old
12-02-2012, 07:01 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Beliveau and Richard over Gordie Howe? Okay, Red.
Two of the lists that haven't been posted yet had Messier ahead of Howe.

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Old
12-02-2012, 07:06 PM
  #237
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Two of the lists that haven't been posted yet had Messier ahead of Howe.
Messier over Howe seems like typical era-ignorance though. Understandable among hockey people who didn't see Howe play and didn't really do any research. I just can't see Beliveau and Richard over Howe being anything but homerism.

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Old
12-02-2012, 07:11 PM
  #238
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Two of the lists that haven't been posted yet had Messier ahead of Howe.
That's just sad.

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12-02-2012, 07:13 PM
  #239
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A constant, though : Pierre Pilote is ranked low. Aggregate rank is 84.
Well that makes sense since he didn't play for the Habs.

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12-02-2012, 07:17 PM
  #240
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Messier over Howe seems like typical era-ignorance though. Understandable among hockey people who didn't see Howe play and didn't really do any research.
They obviously did zero research.

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12-02-2012, 07:19 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Messier over Howe seems like typical era-ignorance though. Understandable among hockey people who didn't see Howe play and didn't really do any research. I just can't see Beliveau and Richard over Howe being anything but homerism.
I know for a lot of Habs fans Beliveau and Richard are titans with god-like status. It's sometimes a little hard to get past that.

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Old
12-02-2012, 07:52 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Red Fisher - Top-100

1 : Bobby Orr
2 : Wayne Gretzky
3 : Mario Lemieux
4 : Jean Béliveau
5 : Maurice Richard
6 : Gordie Howe
7 : Doug Harvey
8 : Bobby Hull
9 : Mark Messier
10 : Phil Esposito
11 : Mike Bossy
12 : Guy Lafleur
13 : Denis Potvin
14 : Henri Richard
15 : Frank Mahovlich
16 : Raymond Bourque
17 : Bernard Geoffrion
18 : Paul Coffey
19 : Dickie Moore
20 : Ron Francis
21 : Steve Yzerman
22 : Jacques Plante
23 : Martin Brodeur
24 : Bryan Trottier
25 : Larry Robinson
26 : Gilbert Perreault
27 : Marcel Dionne
28 : Yvan Cournoyer
29 : Bob Gainey
30 : Dave Keon
31 : Serge Savard
32 : Terry Sawchuck
33 : Patrick Roy
34 : Ken Dryden
35 : Joe Sakic
36 : Brendan Shanahan
37 : Denis Savard
38 : Bobby Clarke
39 : Joe Nieuwendyk
40 : Bernard Parent
41 : Guy Lapointe
42 : Luc Robitaille
43 : Jean Ratelle
44 : Ted Lindsay
45 : Alex Delvecchio
46 : Jacques Lemaire
47 : Michel Goulet
48 : Steve Shutt
49 : Darryl Sittler
50 : Jarome Iginla
51 : John Bucyk
52 : Scott Niedermayer
53 : Sidney Crosby
54 : Steven Stamkos
55 : Richard Martin
56 : Cam Neely
57 : Chris Pronger
58 : Andy Bathgate
59 : Al MacInnis
60 : Brad Park
61 : Claude Provost
62 : Pierre Turgeon
63 : Glenn Hall
64 : Pete Mahovlich
65 : Mark Recchi
66 : Rob Blake
67 : Johnny Bower
68 : Grant Fuhr
69 : Mike Gartner
70 : Dave Andreychuck
71 : Adam Oates
72 : Dale Hawerchuck
73 : Jacques Laperriere
74 : Doug Gilmour
75 : Norm Ullman
76 : Glenn Anderson
77 : Vincent Damphousse
78 : Red Kelly
79 : Bobby Smith
80 : Rodrigue Gilbert
81 : JC Tremblay
82 : Lanny McDonald
83 : Vincent Lecavalier
84 : Joe Thornton
85 : Eric Lindros
86 : Bert Olmstead
87 : Pierre Larouche
88 : Gump Worsley
89 : Pierre Pilote
90 : Rick Middleton
91 : Theo Fleury
92 : Rene Robert
93 : Butch Goring
94 : Rod Brind'Amour
95 : Scott Stevens
96 : Kevin Lowe
97 : Patrick Marleau
98 : Guy Carbonneau
99 : Eric Desjardins
100 : Claude Lemieux
WTF is up with this list??

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12-02-2012, 08:01 PM
  #243
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They obviously did zero research.
Likely not. Just a "fun exercise", a lot of sentimental favourites of their own, never expecting the likes of hf's HOH members to pounce on their picks like a pack of Wolves on the Donner Party.

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12-02-2012, 08:10 PM
  #244
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Likely not. Just a "fun exercise", a lot of sentimental favourites of their own, never expecting the likes of hf's HOH members to pounce on their picks like a pack of Wolves on the Donner Party.
Well maybe, but they did OK their rankings to be put in a magazine that is in the racks to be sold (were they paid-probably). If it was me, I certainly would have put some thought in it (not that anybody gives a **** about my opinion). If you put it out for public view then you should expect some criticism.

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12-02-2012, 08:20 PM
  #245
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Bowman Biased please if he had been he would have put Yzerman Robinson Francis much higher he coached them.He's coached and seen 90 percent of the players on the list.He knows their practice routine and skill set of each individual player.If he was biased he would have excluded some habs due to how management treated him.He coached Dionne in 76 canada cup and 79 challenge and 81 canada cup and he coached perrault for 6 yrs.And though Dionne has a lot more pts he knows perrault was the better player.You can argue all you want.

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12-02-2012, 08:22 PM
  #246
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Bowman Biased please if he had been he would have put Yzerman Robinson Francis much higher he coached them.He's coached and seen 90 percent of the players on the list.He knows their practice routine and skill set of each individual player.If he was biased he would have excluded some habs due to how management treated him.He coached Dionne in 76 canada cup and 79 challenge and 81 canada cup and he coached perrault for 6 yrs.And though Dionne has a lot more pts he knows perrault was the better player.You can argue all you want.
Everyone's biased. Those who say that they're not biased are the ones that you've really got to worry about.

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12-02-2012, 11:52 PM
  #247
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Bowman Biased please if he had been he would have put Yzerman Robinson Francis much higher he coached them.He's coached and seen 90 percent of the players on the list.He knows their practice routine and skill set of each individual player.If he was biased he would have excluded some habs due to how management treated him.He coached Dionne in 76 canada cup and 79 challenge and 81 canada cup and he coached perrault for 6 yrs.And though Dionne has a lot more pts he knows perrault was the better player.You can argue all you want.
If Fedorov were Canadian, Bowman would have ranked him over Yzerman, and probably in the top ten. I'm genuinely surprised Ciccarelli made Bowman's list; Scotty hated Dino. Also surprised he actually ranked Coffey over Murphy (but just barely) as he replaced Coffey with Murphy twice.

Bowman, just like anyone else, has his biases.

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12-03-2012, 12:03 AM
  #248
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The magazine was titled the best 100 canadian players it did not include americans or europeans.As for Bowman we was the first coach in nhl to put 5 russians on ice at same time.Don Cherry would go on tv and attack Bowman for that.Bowman took a lot of heat in english canada.Half of the Redwngs were europeans when bowman was coach.When he was Gm of Sabres he drafted too many europeans some who became busts.

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12-03-2012, 12:55 AM
  #249
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About what I would expect from Red fisher. Look at all the guys that wore a Habs uniform. Richard & Beliveau ahead of Howe. Richard, Beliveau & Harvey ahead of Hull. Does Dick Irvin JR also have a list? Expect it would be similiar.
Personally, I can see the argument for those guys ahead of Hull. It's really not that controversial. I personally have Hull at 5, but a damn good argument could be made for those 3 habs.

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12-03-2012, 01:20 AM
  #250
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I love that Wendel Clark is on Bowman's list.

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