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Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

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Old
11-30-2012, 08:55 PM
  #151
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You could be right but Hull played a lot with Makita and were together on pp.He's better and more important than Yvon.But one question Why did hull only win 1 cup?They had 5 hall of famers including one of the greatest goalies in Glen Hall
Because he was on a team that only won one cup. Teams win cups not individual players. Chicago never had the depth of talent of those Montreal teams. Bobby Hull had great Stanley cup stats (as good as Beliveau PG). Are you a cup counter?

A question for you. Why does Orr have only 2 cups? He played on some pretty good teams.

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11-30-2012, 09:00 PM
  #152
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Toronto won 4 stanley Cups in the 60's and Dave Keon stopped Beleveau.Was Toronto a more talented team Chicago?Toronto stopped Montreal where was Hull and Chicago?

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Old
11-30-2012, 09:04 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by thom View Post
Toronto won 4 stanley Cups in the 60's and Dave Keon stopped Beleveau.Was Toronto a more talented team Chicago?Toronto stopped Montreal where was Hull and Chicago?
Toronto was a much deeper and better coached team than Chicago in those years. Sure Chicago had the superstars but they weren't as deep as Toronto.

Also, again you are crediting individual players with winning cups. Toronto was very strong down centre with Kelly, Keon, and Pulford. I think it was Kelly & pulford that Imlach tried to match up with Beliveau, not Keon.

I have no idea what you are trying to get at here but you don't seem to understand the early 60's era very well and you seem to to associate success by being on cup winning teams..


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Old
11-30-2012, 09:11 PM
  #154
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Brodeur the highest ranked goalie on the list? Really?!?!
7 of the 10 lists had Brodeur ahead of Roy.

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11-30-2012, 09:12 PM
  #155
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7 of the 10 lists had Brodeur ahead of Roy.
It ain't Roy I'm thinking about. It's the Plantes, Sawchucks, and Drydens.

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11-30-2012, 09:17 PM
  #156
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You started out with Montreal I had explain to you that Toronto had won 4 cups.Chicago had the best defenceman at the time had a great goalie had a great centerman and all Hull had is one cup.Who did Toronto have to score any great producing players?

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11-30-2012, 09:18 PM
  #157
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Methodology for the magazine

Here is the 1st part of it found on page 10

Quote:
Was he a dominant player when he was playing in the NHL?

Has he won any individual awards?

How many SC's did he win?

Was he one of the best Goaltenders of his time?

Was he a big influence or did he revolutionize his position?

What legacy did he leave for his sport?
There is more but you get the point...too hard to eat a late dinner and type.

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Old
11-30-2012, 09:20 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by thom View Post
You started out with Montreal I had explain to you that Toronto had won 4 cups.Chicago had the best defenceman at the time had a great goalie had a great centerman and all Hull had is one cup.Who did Toronto have to score any great producing players?
What is your point?

Read my posts or do some research. I am not going to answer the same question over and over again. BTW, your last sentence is incomprehensible.

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Old
11-30-2012, 09:30 PM
  #159
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Thank's for your kind words.Toronto had little firepower but some way were able to dominate the league.Chicago had numerous 1st and 2nd team all star selections but under Hull's leadership only one a single Cup.Very Sad

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Old
11-30-2012, 09:47 PM
  #160
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Yeh. I am disappointed Chicago only won one. They came close several times but it was very competitive in those days. You really under estimate how strong the leafs were in those days. A great coach in Imlach, one of the greatest defense group in the history of the NHL (Horton, Stanley, Brewer, Baun), a great goalie in Bower, 3 well balanced two way lines. This was a team made for the playoffs.

If your game is to downgrade Bobby Hull because he was on a team that only won one stanley cup so be it (mind you his team did win a few WHA championships and at age 38 he was the leading Canadian goal scorer on the Canada cup winner).

Now how about you answering my questions from several posts back. (1)Why did Bobby orr win only 2 cups?(2) Do you cup count to determine the best players?

You have actually never directly responded to any of my points.


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Old
11-30-2012, 10:34 PM
  #161
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So Terry Crisp has Scott Niedermayer ahead of Denis Potvin and 55 spots higher than Chris Pronger (to say nothing of Eddie Shore's ranking)?

Okay then.

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11-30-2012, 10:45 PM
  #162
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Hey I have the utmost respect for Bobby Hull he was great to the fans and the fans loved him.He was one of the main reasons people went to the game.And I rank him as the best Left Winger ever as do people like Bowman.I just think he should have won more cups.As for Orr thats a tough won for me.The bruins choked against the canadiens in one series I remember and orr was on the ice for four goals.Esposito said they should have won a couple more.And yes when people put Hull in the 20's and 30's I have a serious problem with that and its wrong

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:04 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by thom View Post
Toronto won 4 stanley Cups in the 60's and Dave Keon stopped Beleveau.Was Toronto a more talented team Chicago?Toronto stopped Montreal where was Hull and Chicago?
From what I've always understood, Red Kelly was matched against Jean Beliveau while Kelly was a Leaf. In fact, that he was brought there and moved to center full-time for that specific purpose.

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12-01-2012, 03:48 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Terry Crisp's list
-Paul Coffey 2nd best defenseman
-Red Kelly in front of Harvey
-Scott Niedermayer 7th best defenseman
-Denis Potvin behind Robinson and Niedermayer
-Kevin Lowe 11th best defenseman
-Brad Park behind Lowe, Lapointe, Horton, Laperriere, Murphy etc
-Chris Pronger behind every defenseman except Shore
...

These rankings would have been destroyed in the HOH Top 60 Defensemen project.

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12-01-2012, 09:25 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Terry Crisp's list

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Bobby Orr
3. Gordie Howe
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Jean Beliveau
6. Maurice Richard
7. Phil Esposito
8. Mark Messier
9. Bryan Trottier
10. Steve Yzerman
11. Paul Coffey
12. Guy Lafleur
13. Henri Richard
14. Yvan Counoyer
15. Bobby Hull
16. Martin Brodeur
17. Jacques Plante
18. Raymond Bourque
19. Joe Sakic
20. Ron Francis
21. Red Kelly
22. Doug Harvey
23. Mike Bossy
24. Frank Mahovlich
25. Bobby Clarke
26. Terry Sawchuk
27. Marcel Dionne
28. Larry Robinson
29. Scott Niedermayer
30. Denis Potvin
31. Denis Savard
32. Joe Nieuwendyk
33. Doug Gilmour
34. Brendan Shanahan
35. Jacques Lemaire
36. Steve Shutt
37. Luc Robitaille
38. Ken Dryden
39. Bernard Geoffrion
40. Scott Stevens
41. Dave Keon
42. Dickie Moore
43. Sidney Crosby
44. Serge Savard
45. Kevin Lowe
46. Guy Lapointe
47. Patrick Roy
48. Turk Broda
49. Howie Morenz
50. Alex Delvecchio
51. Gilbert Perreault
52. Tim Horton
53. Vincent Damphousse
54. Jacques Laperriere
55. Jean-Claude Tremblay
56. Ted Lindsay
57. Johnny Bucyk
58. Glenn Hall
59. Mark Recchi
60. Rod Brind'Amour
61. Pierre Turgeon
62. Adam Oates
63. Dave Andreychuk
64. Claude Lemieux
65. Norm Ullman
66. Rodrigue Gilbert
67. Al MacInnis
68. Larry Murphy
69. Claude Provost
70. Jean Ratelle
71. Johnny Bower
72. Lanny McDonald
73. Jaromir Iginla
74. Clark Gillies
75. Brad Park
76. Billy Smith
77. Gump Worsley
78. Rob Blake
79. Bernie Federko
80. Bob Gainey
81. Theoren Fleury
82. Darryl Sittler
83. Grant Fuhr
84. Dino Ciccarelli
85. Chris Pronger
86. Eric Lindros
87. Guy Carbonneau
88. Bernard Parent
89. Glenn Anderson
90. Bill Barber
91. Michel Goulet
92. Eddie Shore
93. Dale Hawerchuk
94. Wendel Clark
95. Cam Neely
96. Mike Gartner
97. Ted Kennedy
98. Bert Olmstead
99. George Armstrong
100. Tony Esposito

Highest on:
Phil Esposito
Yzerman
Trottier
Kelly
Cournoyer
Shanahan
Lemaire
Nieuwendyk
Shutt
Damphousse
Gilbert
Lowe
Brind'Amour
Laperriere

Lowest on:
Roy
Perreault
Goulet
Anderson
Neely
This list is comical. Beyond embarrasing for an ex-coach & player.

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Old
12-01-2012, 11:13 AM
  #166
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This list is comical. Beyond embarrasing for an ex-coach & player.
As bad as it is, it beats the crap Bowman put together.

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12-01-2012, 11:13 AM
  #167
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As bad as it is, it beats the crap Bowman put together.
When you have Coffey as the second best defenseman ever. No.

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12-01-2012, 11:17 AM
  #168
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When you have Coffey as the second best defenseman ever. No.
Gretzky at 5 is unforgivably stupid.

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12-01-2012, 11:49 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
From a special edition of Hockey Le Magazine. 9 other lists from longtime coaches, referees, and media members were also included. But I think Bowman's is the most interesting, considering his stature in the hockey world.

1. Bobby Orr
2. Gordie Howe
3. Maurice Richard
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Wayne Gretzky
6. Doug Harvey
7. Eddie Shore
8. Howie Morenz
9. Jean Beliveau
10. Bobby Hull
11. Guy Lafleur
12. Dave Keon
13. Henri Richard
14. Mark Messier
15. Sidney Crosby
16. Raymond Bourque
17. Jacques Plante
18. Frank Mahovlich
19. Terry Sawchuk
20. Serge Savard
21. Denis Potvin
22. Glenn Hall
23. Mike Bossy
24. Dickie Moore
25. Steve Yzerman
26. Brad Park
27. Larry Robinson
28. Bernard Geoffrion
29. Norm Ullman
30. Alex Delvecchio
31. Joe Sakic
32. Bobby Clarke
33. Bob Gainey
34. Scott Niedermayer
35. Elmer Lach
36. Patrick Roy
37. Gilbert Perreault
38. Jacques Lemaire
39. Guy Lapointe
40. Phil Esposito
41. Ted Lindsay
42. Red Kelly
43. Syl Apps
44. Milt Schmidt
45. Johnny Bucyk
46. Marcel Dionne
47. Yvan Cournoyer
48. Martin Brodeur
49. Scott Stevens
50. Cam Neely
51. Jean-Claude Tremblay
52. Michel Goulet
53. Steve Shutt
54. Ken Dryden
55. Bernard Parent
56. Bert Olmstead
57. Bill Barber
58. Pierre Pilote
59. Eric Lindros
60. Darryl Sittler
61. George Armstrong
62. Bryan Trottier
63. Jonathan Toews
64. Chris Pronger
65. Tom Johnson
66. Jean Ratelle
67. Glenn Anderson
68. Paul Coffey
69. Ron Francis
70. Andy Bathgate
71. Luc Robitaille
72. Grant Fuhr
73. Red Berenson
74. Larry Murphy
75. Al MacInnis
76. Denis Savard
77. Joe Nieuwendyk
78. Billy Smith
79. Rick MacLeish
80. Martin St-Louis
81. Tim Horton
82. Jacques Laperriere
83. Tony Esposito
84. Steven Stamkos
85. Brendan Shanahan
86. Bob Pulford
87. Wendel Clark
88. Rob Blake
89. Rodrigue Gilbert
90. Guy Carbonneau
91. Shea Weber
92. Doug Gilmour
93. Johnny Bower
94. Gump Worsley
95. Ed Belfour
96. Dino Ciccarelli
97. Dick Duff
98. Drew Doughty
99. Dave Andreychuk
100. Mark Recchi
How in the world someone puts Gretzky at #5 is mind boggling. That list right there belongs in the trash heap from the get go, but it gets even worse. Sidney Crosby ahead of Ray Bourque? In what universe are we talking about here? I'll take Bourque's career solely in the 1980s over what Crosby has done so far. Esposito at 40th is something even the late Johnny Cochrane couldn't defend. Drew Doughty at #98?

Here is one of his worst. Paul Coffey at #68. Paul Coffey. Glenn Anderson is ahead of him. You read that right. Tom Johnson was apparently a better defenseman. You read that right, and George Armstrong was ahead of him too.

I can't read much more because it is just assinine. I mean, he couldn't even hide the contempt he had for Coffey which is too bad. Bowman is 78 years old now, can we safely say he has lost his mind and this isn't the 1970s or even 1990s Bowman anymore? I mean how in the world is Dave Keon 12th?

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12-01-2012, 11:55 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
When you have Coffey as the second best defenseman ever. No.
Crisp has gone senile too, but don't let it take away from Bowman's senility. Yeah, I still Bowman's list is worse and that's saying something.

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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Gretzky at 5 is unforgivably stupid.
Everything Bowman says after that becomes completely irrelevant. I'm sorry, but you just can't be taken seriously after that.

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12-01-2012, 11:57 AM
  #171
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Dave Keon is the best Maple Leaf player according to many.Many publications including sportsnet magazine has him number1 for Maple leaf players.Bowman has seen all these players has coached a lot of them and seen most.Having Ron francis down on his list well guess what he coached him he coached Coffey he knows more in his finger than all of us on this site.

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Old
12-01-2012, 11:59 AM
  #172
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Here's John Garrett's list:

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Gordie Howe
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Bobby Orr
5. Mark Messier
6. Guy Lafleur
7. Jean Beliveau
8. Martin Brodeur
9. Dave Keon
10. Maurice Richard
11. Henri Richard
12. Bobby Hull
13. Joe Sakic
14. Sidney Crosby
15. Ron Francis
16. Scott Niedermayer
17. Phil Esposito
18. Patrick Roy
19. Eric Lindros
20. Bobby Clarke
21. Steve Yzerman
22. Gilbert Perreault
23. Chris Pronger
24. Jacques Plante
25. Mike Bossy
26. Larry Robinson
27. Al MacInnis
28. Dickie Moore
29. Lanny McDonald
30. Ken Dryden
31. Frank Mahovlich
32. Glenn Anderson
33. Bryan Trottier
34. Glenn Hall
35. Paul Coffey
36. Raymond Bourque
37. Jarome Iginla
38. Ted Lindsay
39. Marcel Dionne
40. Denis Potvin
41. Terry Sawchuk
42. Martin St. Louis
43. Joe Nieuwendyk
44. Scott Stevens
45. Jacques Lemaire
46. Dale Hawerchuk
47. Luc Robitaille
48. Michel Goulet
49. Dale Hunter
50. Dave Andreychuk
51. Doug Gilmour
52. Denis Savard
53. Jean Ratelle
54. Johnny Bucyk
55. Johnny Bower
56. Dave Taylor
57. Mike Gartner
58. Guy Carbonneau
59. Red Kelly
60. Claude Lemieux
61. Reggie Leach
62. Kevin Lowe
63. Larry Murphy
64. Adam Oates
65. Rod Brind'Amour
66. Serge Savard
67. Rick Martin
68. Charlie Simmer
69. Theoren Fleury
70. Doug Harvey
71. Brendan Shanahan
72. Bobby Smith
73. Pierre Turgeon
74. John Tonelli
75. Pat Verbeek
76. Billy Smith
77. Rob Blake
78. Dave Babych
79. Andy Bathgate
80. John Ferguson
81. Marc Tardif
82. Vincent Damphousse
83. Alex Delvecchio
84. Tom Johnson
85. Darryl Sittler
86. Gump Worsley
87. Cam Neely
88. Trevor Linden
89. Mike Vernon
90. Tim Kerr
91. Gary Roberts
92. Stan Smyl
93. Duncan Keith
94. Steven Stamkos
95. Grant Fuhr
96. Tim Horton
97. Bernie Federko
98. Steve Larmer
99. Joe Thornton
100. Bernard Parent


Have fun with this one

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:02 PM
  #173
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Holeeeeee mother of God. Trevor Linden at #88 and Stan Smyl at #92. Garrett is crazier than Bowman!!!!!

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12-01-2012, 12:04 PM
  #174
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Is that two lists now with no mention of Hasek?

Garrett's a goaltender; he should know better.

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12-01-2012, 12:04 PM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
Dave Keon is the best Maple Leaf player according to many.Many publications including sportsnet magazine has him number1 for Maple leaf players.Bowman has seen all these players has coached a lot of them and seen most.Having Ron francis down on his list well guess what he coached him he coached Coffey he knows more in his finger than all of us on this site.
Yes Bowman is (was?) a smart hockey man. So was Don Cherry when you get down to it. It doesn't mean they are great scouts though necessarily and don't throw in their biases here and there. Bowman's list isn't just bad in a couple of spots it is outrageous in many. Someone compared his list to one that Stan Fischler would make. I agree, and I never thought Bowman would be at that level. Fischler once pronounced that the Red Wings losing Doug Brown would be a blow and they would never win without him. Take that any way you'd like it.

As for Keon, look, he was a great player and a great HHOFer. He was NOT the best Leaf ever. This entire movement is nothing more than a kiss up to a man who thumbs his nose at the Leafs organization. Syl Apps, among other Leafs are rolling in their grave. Maybe Keon is a better Leaf than Mahovlich, but Mahovlich had the better overall career. No doubt. Keon does not belong at #12 on a list like this. That means if you throw in the Europeans (Hasek, Jagr, Lidstrom) he might go back as far as #15 all-time. We are talking about Dave Keon as the 15th best player of all-time which is abhorrent.

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