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Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:06 PM
  #176
Doctor No
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
Dave Keon is the best Maple Leaf player according to many.Many publications including sportsnet magazine has him number1 for Maple leaf players.Bowman has seen all these players has coached a lot of them and seen most.Having Ron francis down on his list well guess what he coached him he coached Coffey he knows more in his finger than all of us on this site.
You've used this argument previously; remember here?

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...php?p=56068581

Whether or not Bowman knows more in his finger than all of us on this site, it doesn't make everything that he does the be-all and end-all. For what it's worth, my fingers don't know much about hockey any more, after I took a puck to my blocker hand middle finger - it's now been numb for the past three years. So he certainly know more in his finger than I do in mine.

To be quite frank, my guess is that he didn't spend very much time on this project at all.

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:07 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Here's John Garrett's list:

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Gordie Howe
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Bobby Orr
5. Mark Messier
6. Guy Lafleur
7. Jean Beliveau
8. Martin Brodeur
9. Dave Keon
10. Maurice Richard
11. Henri Richard
12. Bobby Hull
13. Joe Sakic
14. Sidney Crosby
15. Ron Francis
16. Scott Niedermayer
17. Phil Esposito
18. Patrick Roy
19. Eric Lindros
20. Bobby Clarke
21. Steve Yzerman
22. Gilbert Perreault
23. Chris Pronger
24. Jacques Plante
25. Mike Bossy
26. Larry Robinson
27. Al MacInnis
28. Dickie Moore
29. Lanny McDonald
30. Ken Dryden
31. Frank Mahovlich
32. Glenn Anderson
33. Bryan Trottier
34. Glenn Hall
35. Paul Coffey
36. Raymond Bourque
37. Jarome Iginla
38. Ted Lindsay
39. Marcel Dionne
40. Denis Potvin
41. Terry Sawchuk
42. Martin St. Louis
43. Joe Nieuwendyk
44. Scott Stevens
45. Jacques Lemaire
46. Dale Hawerchuk
47. Luc Robitaille
48. Michel Goulet
49. Dale Hunter
50. Dave Andreychuk
51. Doug Gilmour
52. Denis Savard
53. Jean Ratelle
54. Johnny Bucyk
55. Johnny Bower
56. Dave Taylor
57. Mike Gartner
58. Guy Carbonneau
59. Red Kelly
60. Claude Lemieux
61. Reggie Leach
62. Kevin Lowe
63. Larry Murphy
64. Adam Oates
65. Rod Brind'Amour
66. Serge Savard
67. Rick Martin
68. Charlie Simmer
69. Theoren Fleury
70. Doug Harvey
71. Brendan Shanahan
72. Bobby Smith
73. Pierre Turgeon
74. John Tonelli
75. Pat Verbeek
76. Billy Smith
77. Rob Blake
78. Dave Babych
79. Andy Bathgate
80. John Ferguson
81. Marc Tardif
82. Vincent Damphousse
83. Alex Delvecchio
84. Tom Johnson
85. Darryl Sittler
86. Gump Worsley
87. Cam Neely
88. Trevor Linden
89. Mike Vernon
90. Tim Kerr
91. Gary Roberts
92. Stan Smyl
93. Duncan Keith
94. Steven Stamkos
95. Grant Fuhr
96. Tim Horton
97. Bernie Federko
98. Steve Larmer
99. Joe Thornton
100. Bernard Parent


Have fun with this one
I almost choked on my water when I saw Garrett had Kevin Lowe ahead of Doug Harvey.

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:08 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Is that two lists now with no mention of Hasek?

Garrett's a goaltender; he should know better.
The lists are Canadian players only.

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:08 PM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Is that two lists now with no mention of Hasek?

Garrett's a goaltender; he should know better.
Canadians only, Mr. Max Zorin.

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:09 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Is that two lists now with no mention of Hasek?

Garrett's a goaltender; he should know better.
Garrett is also a Canadian who knows that Pardubice is not in Canada.

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:09 PM
  #181
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Well, that's no fun.

Let's see how many people can correct me.

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:15 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
Dave Keon is the best Maple Leaf player according to many.Many publications including sportsnet magazine has him number1 for Maple leaf players.Bowman has seen all these players has coached a lot of them and seen most.Having Ron francis down on his list well guess what he coached him he coached Coffey he knows more in his finger than all of us on this site.
No. He is a better hockey coach than any of us here but many of us are better hockey analysts than Bowman. By a wide margin.

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:20 PM
  #183
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You can read publications back in the day and Keon was named the best maple leaf player.Scotty talked about Keon for decades this nothing new.I have a article by Frank orr in febuary 3 1977 it says Dave is enjoying his time in Wha but misses the big time terribly.Frank goes on to say that Keon is the all-time best maple leaf ever

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:26 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by thom View Post
You can read publications back in the day and Keon was named the best maple leaf player.Scotty talked about Keon for decades this nothing new.I have a article by Frank orr in febuary 3 1977 it says Dave is enjoying his time in Wha but misses the big time terribly.Frank goes on to say that Keon is the all-time best maple leaf ever
He would be wrong. Clancy, Conacher, Apps, Kennedy, Salming, Dye and Gilmour are all ahead of Keon. Not sure if you can really count Ullman and Kelly as they spent much of their careers elsewhere but they are ahead too.

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:33 PM
  #185
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The belief that because someone had good success in their hockey career means they have an infallible opinion is ridiculous. It's no different than saying we are not allowed to criticize the president's decisions because he has a career in politics. Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion, and while in many cases some may be worth more than others, there is no line that can be drawn between educated minds to say one person has a more worthy opinion than another.

I have grown up around hockey. Played it, watched it, and read about it my whole life. You can't tell me anybody's opinions are more worthwhile than my own if I'm confident that I'm educated enough on the topic at hand. It's insane to give people these god complex's. Everything deserves a reasonable discussion if you want to find what's closest to the truth.

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:35 PM
  #186
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About Bowman's list:

How do you put Crosby at 15 with Lindros at 59? I'd love to hear the reasoning behind that one.

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:45 PM
  #187
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If someone has not been to the highest level as a player or coach or in management in their sport we as lay people have no true knowledge of a player.We look goals assists pts and think that's how a player should be rated.When in 1999 The hockey News asked 100 people to rate the top 100 players of all time.Guess what they asked knowledgeable people who have knowledge of the history of the game the style of game which was played and the talents of each player.The fan has the right to express his or her opinion but to pretend they know as much about the game is a complete joke

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:47 PM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
If someone has not been to the highest level as a player or coach or in management in their sport we as lay people have no true knowledge of a player.We look goals assists pts and think that's how a player should be rated.When in 1999 The hockey News asked 100 people to rate the top 100 players of all time.Guess what they asked knowledgeable people who have knowledge of the history of the game the style of game which was played and the talents of each player.The fan has the right to express his or her opinion but to pretend they know as much about the game is a complete joke
I've already asked you this once (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...php?p=56068323), and you ignored it (actually, you responded with a non-sequitur that also happened to be false).

Why do you find interest in the History forum, then? Why not just go read Scotty Bowman's books all day?

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:57 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Holeeeeee mother of God. Trevor Linden at #88 and Stan Smyl at #92. Garrett is crazier than Bowman!!!!!
Linden had enough of a career to be considered for a top 100 Canadian players list IMO.

I love Stan but how he made 100 is a mystery to me.

That being said there are other much larger problems with john's list than the 2 Canucks.

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Old
12-01-2012, 01:36 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Here's John Garrett's list:

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Gordie Howe
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Bobby Orr
5. Mark Messier
6. Guy Lafleur
7. Jean Beliveau
8. Martin Brodeur
9. Dave Keon
10. Maurice Richard
11. Henri Richard
12. Bobby Hull
13. Joe Sakic
14. Sidney Crosby
15. Ron Francis
16. Scott Niedermayer
17. Phil Esposito
18. Patrick Roy
19. Eric Lindros
20. Bobby Clarke
21. Steve Yzerman
22. Gilbert Perreault
23. Chris Pronger
24. Jacques Plante
25. Mike Bossy
26. Larry Robinson
27. Al MacInnis
28. Dickie Moore
29. Lanny McDonald
30. Ken Dryden
31. Frank Mahovlich
32. Glenn Anderson
33. Bryan Trottier
34. Glenn Hall
35. Paul Coffey
36. Raymond Bourque
37. Jarome Iginla
38. Ted Lindsay
39. Marcel Dionne
40. Denis Potvin
41. Terry Sawchuk
42. Martin St. Louis
43. Joe Nieuwendyk
44. Scott Stevens
45. Jacques Lemaire
46. Dale Hawerchuk
47. Luc Robitaille
48. Michel Goulet
49. Dale Hunter
50. Dave Andreychuk
51. Doug Gilmour
52. Denis Savard
53. Jean Ratelle
54. Johnny Bucyk
55. Johnny Bower
56. Dave Taylor
57. Mike Gartner
58. Guy Carbonneau
59. Red Kelly
60. Claude Lemieux
61. Reggie Leach
62. Kevin Lowe
63. Larry Murphy
64. Adam Oates
65. Rod Brind'Amour
66. Serge Savard
67. Rick Martin
68. Charlie Simmer
69. Theoren Fleury
70. Doug Harvey
71. Brendan Shanahan
72. Bobby Smith
73. Pierre Turgeon
74. John Tonelli
75. Pat Verbeek
76. Billy Smith
77. Rob Blake
78. Dave Babych
79. Andy Bathgate
80. John Ferguson
81. Marc Tardif
82. Vincent Damphousse
83. Alex Delvecchio
84. Tom Johnson
85. Darryl Sittler
86. Gump Worsley
87. Cam Neely
88. Trevor Linden
89. Mike Vernon
90. Tim Kerr
91. Gary Roberts
92. Stan Smyl
93. Duncan Keith
94. Steven Stamkos
95. Grant Fuhr
96. Tim Horton
97. Bernie Federko
98. Steve Larmer
99. Joe Thornton
100. Bernard Parent


Have fun with this one
My God, this is worse than Crisp's. Is this a joke?

Dave Baggage at 78? Inconcievable!

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Old
12-01-2012, 01:52 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
How in the world someone puts Gretzky at #5 is mind boggling. That list right there belongs in the trash heap from the get go, but it gets even worse. Sidney Crosby ahead of Ray Bourque? In what universe are we talking about here? I'll take Bourque's career solely in the 1980s over what Crosby has done so far. Esposito at 40th is something even the late Johnny Cochrane couldn't defend. Drew Doughty at #98?

Here is one of his worst. Paul Coffey at #68. Paul Coffey. Glenn Anderson is ahead of him. You read that right. Tom Johnson was apparently a better defenseman. You read that right, and George Armstrong was ahead of him too.

I can't read much more because it is just assinine. I mean, he couldn't even hide the contempt he had for Coffey which is too bad. Bowman is 78 years old now, can we safely say he has lost his mind and this isn't the 1970s or even 1990s Bowman anymore? I mean how in the world is Dave Keon 12th?
As I've stated before, it doesn't look like Bowman is considering career, awards, or stats. Just who was a better hockey player. With Gretzky having zero physical game and being poor defensively I totally understand him being seen as 5th to a great coach.

Why do you think Bowman has such contempt for Coffey?

To me, Crosby & Bourque are very comparable as hockey players.

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12-01-2012, 01:54 PM
  #192
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Bowman's list is one hell of a lot more sensible than Garrett's.

While I find Bowman's relatively low ranking of Denis Potvin and Larry Robinson to be perplexing I was heartened to see J.C. Tremblay come in at number 51. The Hall of Fame need to address Tremblay's shameful exclusion before admitting, even more, less deserving players.

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Old
12-01-2012, 01:58 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
My God, this is worse than Crisp's. Is this a joke?

Dave Baggage at 78? Inconcievable!
Garrett probably put Babych on the list just for the moustache.

Brad Park was a good player, but did he ever have a moustache like that?

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Old
12-01-2012, 02:09 PM
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
My God, this is worse than Crisp's. Is this a joke?

Dave Baggage at 78? Inconcievable!
Not only is Babych at 78, he is ahead of Andy Bathgate.

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Old
12-01-2012, 02:09 PM
  #195
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I just want to know how many of these lists would be rejected or sent back for correction if they were submitted to one of HoH's "Top Q Players" projects?

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12-01-2012, 02:10 PM
  #196
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Linden had enough of a career to be considered for a top 100 Canadian players list IMO.
I love Stan but how he made 100 is a mystery to me.

That being said there are other much larger problems with john's list than the 2 Canucks.

Uhhhhh....no.

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Old
12-01-2012, 02:14 PM
  #197
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I dont get why people is upset. These are obviously lists of their favorite players. There is no other explination. You would probably explode if you see my list because I would have Lemieux further down as I wasnt very big on him (not based on pure skills obviously). I doubt that any of these hockey personalities sat down for a longer period of time and analyzed these players to the fullest extent and made these lists.

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Old
12-01-2012, 02:16 PM
  #198
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Garrett probably put Babych on the list just for the moustache.

Brad Park was a good player, but did he ever have a moustache like that?
Excellent point!

I had forgotten how important the stache is to John Garrett.

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Old
12-01-2012, 05:36 PM
  #199
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thom is putting the argument from authority fallacy on full display in this thread.

As far as Garrett's list is concerned: can we all not agree at this point that Scott Niedermayer is easily the most overrated player in hockey history from the perspective of the media?

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12-01-2012, 06:05 PM
  #200
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thom is putting the argument from authority fallacy on full display in this thread.

As far as Garrett's list is concerned: can we all not agree at this point that Scott Niedermayer is easily the most overrated player in hockey history from the perspective of the media?
the interesting thing about niedermayer for me is that he is currently massively overrated because of intangibles, and he played so recently that we all remember his "winning"-ness.

for some crazy morons in the press, these intangibles place him above guys like park or fetisov, or whomever, completely ignoring that these older players also oozed intangibles-- it's just that we tend to remember niedermayer's more vividly because those guys played so long ago.

history will correct this, in time. ten, fifteen years from now, will a guy like doughty be considered a top five all-time defenseman? and will niedermayer fall back to his rightful place in the 30s? history tells us this is pretty likely.

just like, fifteen years from now my kids will be like, "who the hell was joe nieuwendyk and why is a guy who never came close to 100 points in the highest scoring era ever and only had one good playoff run a hall of famer? makes no sense." with nieuwendyk, you can un-induct him from the hall of fame. but in niedermayer's case, he is still clearly a hall of famer, just obviously not a top ten d-man of all time. so in the long run, no harm no foul.

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