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Roster Talk '13 — Russia

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Old
12-19-2012, 11:53 AM
  #301
Bure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruinsfan46 View Post
He truly believes that in a few months in the OHL Zadorov has been ruined despite the fact he's playing substantially better than he was in September. There are certain posters on this site who truly, truly believe all the CHL does is ruin their country's prospects. I remember reading about how Khokhlachev was ruined, he's their number one centre! You just have to let it go, there is no rationalizing.

Zadorov is a 17 year old defenseman and it is still a 19 year old tournament, the OHL has not caused him to go backwards hockey wise.
Actually Grigorenko is, but that's irrelevant because he plays in the CHL as well lol.

Khokhlachev you could argue could have been a better player if he stayed in Russia cause he is back in the KHL and only adjusting to the game now, where if he stayed he could have been an impact player by now.

It's just that Russian's are trained so differently from Canadian's and when they come here and are forced to play dump and chase, cycling hockey their development is stunned as they are trying to learn a new game. Sometimes it works for the better with the rare talent though.

If their ultimate goal is to make the NHL as soon as possible then CHL is a good , but risky route. But if they want to be better players in the long run, I think they are better off staying at home and coming over when they are around 20.

Just my two cents.

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Old
12-19-2012, 11:54 AM
  #302
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Surprised Zlobin got cut. I've seen him play a couple of times and he is a dynamic offensive forward.

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12-19-2012, 12:04 PM
  #303
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Ruined is a loud statement, but the fact remains, the development gets shifted for smaller rinks, primitive north - south game, and there are players in every country who would benefit from that, not the case of the top prospects though, where their game gets primitive and deteriorates by veering to the side from home hockey schooling, that's a fact, I wish Prokhorkin's agent had been prosecuted in Russia somehow or at least banned from entering the country, few others for that matter as well. Having Russian top-prospects like Tolchinskiy, Kucherov, Grigorenko and etc play in the CHL is like sending Picasso to paint local highschool's fence!!!

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12-19-2012, 12:05 PM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bure View Post
Actually Grigorenko is, but that's irrelevant because he plays in the CHL as well lol.

Khokhlachev you could argue could have been a better player if he stayed in Russia cause he is back in the KHL and only adjusting to the game now, where if he stayed he could have been an impact player by now.

It's just that Russian's are trained so differently from Canadian's and when they come here and are forced to play dump and chase, cycling hockey their development is stunned as they are trying to learn a new game. Sometimes it works for the better with the rare talent though.


If their ultimate goal is to make the NHL as soon as possible then CHL is a good , but risky route. But if they want to be better players in the long run, I think they are better off staying at home and coming over when they are around 20.

Just my two cents.
very well said

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Old
12-19-2012, 12:07 PM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
None of the names is on the roster we are talking about. So what are you talking about? So typical...
yet there's history, right? these people have represented (if you can call it that) Russia in world championships.

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12-19-2012, 12:08 PM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
Ruined is a loud statement, but the fact remains, the development gets shifted for smaller rinks, primitive north - south game, and there are players in every country who would benefit from that, not the case of the top prospects though, where their game gets primitive and deteriorates by veering to the side from home hockey schooling, that's a fact, I wish Prokhorkin's agent had been prosecuted in Russia somehow or at least banned from entering the country, few others for that matter as well. Having Russian top-prospects like Tolchinskiy, Kucherov, Grigorenko and etc play in the CHL is like sending Picasso to paint local highschool's fence!!!
Larionov as well

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12-19-2012, 12:54 PM
  #307
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I tend to agree that it is best to continue to develop in the system you have found success with, especially when the style of play is vastly different between leagues. Many European countries emphasize a better practice to game ratio as well, which further helps development. In some ways, the CHL is more of a junior pro circuit than an actual development league.

However, lets not pretend that all the Russian players that choose to play in the CHL are truly elite when they leave Russia to come here. As well, there are always players whose development comes early, but it is surpassed by their peers as they age. There are plenty of players who fail to become impact players no matter where they are developed. Look at Kovalchuk vs Svitov and Chistov. Plenty of Canadian first round players never amount to anything as well. I don't place blame on the CHL for that.

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Old
12-19-2012, 01:01 PM
  #308
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Regardless of where Zadorov plays, he's still only 17 and this is U20 level. That's a huge gap, especially for a d-man.

I'm surprised but not disappointed. He would've been a depth d-man anyhow.

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12-19-2012, 01:05 PM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash View Post
I tend to agree that it is best to continue to develop in the system you have found success with, especially when the style of play is vastly different between leagues. Many European countries emphasize a better practice to game ratio as well, which further helps development. In some ways, the CHL is more of a junior pro circuit than an actual development league.

However, lets not pretend that all the Russian players that choose to play in the CHL are truly elite when they leave Russia to come here. As well, there are always players whose development comes early, but it is surpassed by their peers as they age. There are plenty of players who fail to become impact players no matter where they are developed. Look at Kovalchuk vs Svitov and Chistov. Plenty of Canadian first round players never amount to anything as well. I don't place blame on the CHL for that.
The CHL doesn't deserve any blame....it's a great league. It's a set of circumstances that can mess a player up.

The blame falls on the idiot player, greedy agents.

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12-19-2012, 01:11 PM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Larionov as well
not that again

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12-19-2012, 01:34 PM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
The blame falls on the idiot player, greedy agents.

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Old
12-19-2012, 01:38 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
I wish Prokhorkin's agent had been prosecuted in Russia somehow or at least banned from entering the country, few others for that matter as well.
A few of you guys are walking, talking stereotypes. Reflects poorly on your (and my) country.

All the Larionov hate, now banning agents, calling players idiots for not submitting to the man. It is all just gross.

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12-19-2012, 01:44 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by SoundAndFury View Post
Why would you keep insisting CHL ruins everybody? Did CHL ruin Yakupov too? Obviously there are many examples when CHL was not the right path to go for Russian players but IMO both Zlobin and Zadorov benefited from going to NA.

And how can CHL ruin a player in 4 months? That's ridiculous.
I'm not pretending to speak for Vorky, but I think what he's referring to is a commonly held belief among many Russian hockey fans that Russian players in a developmental stage make the mistake of going to NA, and thereby stunt their development. You would have to know something about the current differences between Russian and Canadian youth hockey development systems (although Russian youth hockey systems are changing quickly), differences in style and tactics of play, language, culture, and just being a foreigner alone in a strange country at that age of life.

Players report that Canadian and American hosts are friendly and helpful in every way toward their adjustment, but still, it is a huge adjustment. It is the opinion of people like Vorky and myself that migration to NA to pursue dreams of glory in the NHL should be delayed until a more mature age. Sure, Yakupov is going to do fine anywhere. Zadorov will do well in NA because he is big and physical, but mostly Russians are taught to play a finesse game, and that often doesn't fit in with NA style and needs.


Last edited by Yakushev72: 12-19-2012 at 01:46 PM. Reason: omission
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Old
12-19-2012, 01:49 PM
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
Well, what do you disagree with? The players themselves choose to go play in the CHL, knowing the style of play will be different. CHL is what it is, and you know what you're getting. It's an awesome league for young players, but the style of play differs from the one in Russia. So you can't really blame the league, you can only blame the players/parents/agents for choosing the path they chose (if you're keen on blaming anyone - I'm not).

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12-19-2012, 02:05 PM
  #315
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I have to say that as good as Grigorenko has been playing the Q, he is not the same players as he was at U18, style wise. He lost a chunk of the amazing creativity and passing touch that he had. He played an incredible give and go game. I don't see that spark anymore, sure he is solid and can score, but the combination game has NOT developed. If anything, it looks like that part of his game regressed.

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12-19-2012, 02:11 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I have to say that as good as Grigorenko has been playing the Q, he is not the same players as he was at U18, style wise. He lost a chunk of the amazing creativity and passing touch that he had. He played an incredible give and go game. I don't see that spark anymore, sure he is solid and can score, but the combination game has NOT developed. If anything, it looks like that part of his game regressed.
this

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Old
12-19-2012, 02:11 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
Well, what do you disagree with? The players themselves choose to go play in the CHL, knowing the style of play will be different. CHL is what it is, and you know what you're getting. It's an awesome league for young players, but the style of play differs from the one in Russia. So you can't really blame the league, you can only blame the players/parents/agents for choosing the path they chose (if you're keen on blaming anyone - I'm not).
True.

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12-19-2012, 02:49 PM
  #318
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How are things looking for Artem Sergeev?

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Old
12-19-2012, 03:27 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by Khabby View Post
How are things looking for Artem Sergeev?
He's listed as having been selected to the team. He skated a regular shift on defense last year in Calgary, and he should be considered one of the more steady defenseman. Personally, I think at age 19 he is probably being held back a bit in the QMJHL, as he would likely be playing in the KHL or at least the VHL this year if he had stayed in Russia.

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12-19-2012, 04:09 PM
  #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Acallabeth
Yes, Dima was the best D in Kuznya. It can not be said about CSKA and Zadorov (this season). On the other hand, he is only 17y old. It is not so easy to crack KHL roster at such age. The same NHL. He would progress nice in VHL, I am sure. Still better than junior hockey in Canada. And maybe,next season, he would join CSKA main team. Do you know that KHL entry contract is for 3 years, so until a guy is 20y. He would not miss NHL if he stayed. Look at Kuznetsov (could move) or Tarasenko. It is not problem to terminate contract earlier in KHL (Kucherov), so he could play this season in VHL. If not satisfied, next season moved to NA. Btw, can he play AHL next season? IIRC, there is a rule, CHLer can not play AHL until 20y (Koko case this season). If he played senior/pro hockey in Russia, he would move DIRECTLY to AHL (Prokhorkin case if no KHL-NHL legal case). So, I can imagine Zadorov (and Tolchintsky etc) will have to face "Koko case". They could overgrow CHL, but not good enough for NHL and can not play AHL (due to rules). Are they aware this? It this the best option? I dont think so.

It depends on where he was drafted from.If player was drafted from european league then came over to CHL,he could play AHL before 20.There may be other loopholes I'm not familar with.Maybe someone with more knowledge on the subject could tell us more.

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Old
12-19-2012, 04:55 PM
  #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PensBandwagonerNo272 View Post
Surprised Zlobin got cut. I've seen him play a couple of times and he is a dynamic offensive forward.
Was just about to draft him so I'm glad I didn't but I thought he would've had a chance as he's quite an offensive player.

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Old
12-19-2012, 05:11 PM
  #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krazyhawk View Post
It depends on where he was drafted from.If player was drafted from european league then came over to CHL,he could play AHL before 20.There may be other loopholes I'm not familar with.Maybe someone with more knowledge on the subject could tell us more.
thx, and this is a problem. Russians come to CHL to be drafted from CHL. Then, they cannot play AHL until 20 (Koko). Not the best path

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Old
12-20-2012, 03:48 AM
  #323
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all this chl khl development talk is bs and biased based on whos from what country. russia is gonna be good regardless however i dont care if zadorov is 17 and plays in the finnish elite league, chl, khl, mhl, nhl, whatever. Zadorov is ten million times better then A.VASILEVSKY. and probably better then 1 or 2 of the other remaining defense and thats a fact. As for Zlobin he is a good talent clutch player but at the end of the day whether it is... kapustin, mozer, zlobin i dont think these players would have been big impact players during the tournament. russias top 6 is. sigarev yak koko grigo kucherov and slepyshev so zlobin isnt a surprise to me. Zadorov however with russias WEEEEAAAAAKKKKKKKKKK defense SHOULD have made this team. thats all.

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Old
12-20-2012, 04:22 AM
  #324
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Originally Posted by coursy17 View Post
all this chl khl development talk is bs and biased based on whos from what country. russia is gonna be good regardless however i dont care if zadorov is 17 and plays in the finnish elite league, chl, khl, mhl, nhl, whatever. Zadorov is ten million times better then A.VASILEVSKY. and probably better then 1 or 2 of the other remaining defense and thats a fact. As for Zlobin he is a good talent clutch player but at the end of the day whether it is... kapustin, mozer, zlobin i dont think these players would have been big impact players during the tournament. russias top 6 is. sigarev yak koko grigo kucherov and slepyshev so zlobin isnt a surprise to me. Zadorov however with russias WEEEEAAAAAKKKKKKKKKK defense SHOULD have made this team. thats all.
Russia's Defense is not really weak, I actually think it is the best defense they have had in years and are missing the best defensemen due to injury. Vasilevsky is crap but he seems to have good understanding with Tryamkin from what I have read. Still two players need to be cut it could be Vasilevsky.

I think Zharkov will be cut from the team in offense.

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12-20-2012, 12:19 PM
  #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coursy17 View Post
all this chl khl development talk is bs and biased based on whos from what country. russia is gonna be good regardless however i dont care if zadorov is 17 and plays in the finnish elite league, chl, khl, mhl, nhl, whatever. Zadorov is ten million times better then A.VASILEVSKY. and probably better then 1 or 2 of the other remaining defense and thats a fact. As for Zlobin he is a good talent clutch player but at the end of the day whether it is... kapustin, mozer, zlobin i dont think these players would have been big impact players during the tournament. russias top 6 is. sigarev yak koko grigo kucherov and slepyshev so zlobin isnt a surprise to me. Zadorov however with russias WEEEEAAAAAKKKKKKKKKK defense SHOULD have made this team. thats all.
Russia's D is not weak, best its been in a while.

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